[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Dreyski]

Lord snooty would be remain or leave depending whether he likes Boris or not and the bash street kids leave if stereotypes are to be believed. (Or were they the Dandy?) Most others undecided

I think Roger the Dodger's now in parliament

[JAL]

Well they haven't finalised it yet, but I am sure the EU will accept most of what Big Corp America wants then the fun will start, no doubt some of the EU decision makers will be looking forward to taking places on the boards of the companies benefiting from it. Think you are giving the lefts new pin up boy Cameron undeserved credit, he could not negotiate his way out of a paper bag as we will see if he survives .

Think this thread is going to be very interesting for the next couple of years at least

Was told on good authority that the French and Germans were totally against the Trans Atlantic Trade agreement that Cameron dropped on them.

Wonder who Cameron like Brown and Blair before him masters are ?

[Steve Moss]

Is this true? Has the BBC been suppressing news about British residents and vehicles being attacked in Calais?

http://heatst.com/uk/breaking-british-drivers-attacked-in-calais-by-migrants-before-eu-referendum/

I've read on here that some think the "Americans" want UK to stay in the EU. I think it's a more correct statement that our President and some bankers/money men want the UK to stay in the EU. The international corporations, and our President, are not "America" even if he and some of they are Americans. They owe their allegiance to money. Speaking as a citizen, precious few of my peers have any idea that there is a UK exit referendum, or care if they do.

[perthblue02]

I see George Soros has been active today, must have had a change of heart on screwing the British over considering his money making exploits aided by the German Central (our friends in EU? )bankers in 1992. I'm spotting a theme with a lot of these "names" who are quite vocal for a Remain vote

http://priceonomics.com/the-trade-of-the-century-when-george-soros-broke/

[perthblue02]

Was told on good authority that the French and Germans were totally against the Trans Atlantic Trade agreement that little Dave dropped on them.

Wonder who Cameron like Brown and Blair before him masters are ?

They might be as citizens in fact I think it was the German press that started leaking parts of the agreement out whilst it was being discussed in the EU, but the EU negotiators, Big Corp Inc lobbyists and the "totally independent advisor's " will probably bend over backwards for the great god money , just look at the treatment of Greece , no or token thoughts will probably go into protecting the majority of citizens at the expense of big corp inc. Far easier to negotiate a trade deal with a bunch of faceless bureaucrats in secret that will affect 550 million people rather than do it individually by country and very cost effective lobbying wise. Also its been known in the past for a EU "partner" to chuck another one under the bus when it suits.

Unless of course the democratic? EU decide to let citizens of the EU vote on such an important issue , doubt it though. One can hope that the red tape and negotiations and uproar caused by leaks of information drag any agreement on for years. For a bit of balance voting out may not see the end of any TTIP agreement and Britain may enter its own negotiations if it exits the EU, but at least it will possibly be easy to know who is doing the negotiations and there will be a visible presence that can be held accountable directly as it will be a commons vote. Unfortunately none of either sides front runners (leave or remain) seem capable or trustworthy enough to do it in the interests of the general British public .

Regarding the masters , Follow the money.

[yoda]

The way I see it with David Cameron is that he brokered the deal on behalf of Europe for the Americans to stitch up the whole of Europe through the Trans Atlantic trade agreement then gave us Britain the chance to exit by calling the referendum on EU membership.

Do you want the Americans to influence our policies ?

Was it the Americans who pulled £65 billion from our financial markets most recently ?

Has the light come on JAL

[jim mk2]

Speaking as a citizen, precious few of my peers have any idea that there is a UK exit referendum, or care if they do.

The majority of US citizens are unaware there is a world outside the US - so no surprise there.

Brendan Cox, husband of murdered MP Jo Cox, said on BBC today he believed his wife was killed for her political views. Like it or not, there is a link between her murder and the atmosphere of hate and bile that has been coming from both camps, but particularly the Brexiteers, during this referendum campaign.

[Stuart]

The majority of US citizens are unaware there is a world outside the US - so no surprise there.

Brendan Cox, husband of murdered MP Jo Cox, said on BBC today he believed his wife was killed for her political views. Like it or not, there is a link between her murder and the atmosphere of hate and bile that has been coming from both camps, but particularly the Brexiteers, during this referendum campaign.

Personally I hold the Remain campaign equally responsible, for creating a climate of fear.

For many, the only reason to vote to stay in the EU is out of a state-fuelled fear of the consequences of leaving.

You would think that a vote for leaving the EU was a vote for the end of civilisation.

[jim mk2]

A man stands on the edge of the cliff and you warn him that if he falls over he is likely to be killed. Is that "fear-mongering" or a warning of the possible repercussions of the consequences of his actions ?.

There is no "climate of fear" but legitimate concerns about leaving an organisation that has been positive for this country in so many ways.

The Leave camp have yet to show how not being part of it would in any way be better.

[Gav]

A man stands on the edge of the cliff and you warn him that if he falls over he is likely to be killed. Is that "fear-mongering" or a warning of the possible repercussions of the consequences of his actions ?.

There is no "climate of fear" but legitimate concerns about leaving an organisation that has been positive for this country in so many ways.

The Leave camp have yet to show how not being part of it would in any way be better.

Was it not Gideon that started all this scaremongering by claiming that everyone would be £4000 worse of by 2030!

Here's a man that's gone back on every budget he's presided over and can't get even the basics of government right.

If we opt out, we can control immigration into the country, that's a fact and would mean that the population of Newcastle wouldn't keep entering the country year upon year.

Whilst I don't believe 'foreigners are taking school places, houses and our jobs' it's going to happen at some stage if we don't control the numbers because the Tories are not building new homes or creating a suitable infrastructure to cope.

So that's 1 major benefit of being out.

[Paul]

If we opt out, we can control immigration into the country, that's a fact and would mean that the population of Newcastle wouldn't keep entering the country year upon year. .

That might upset the Geordies 😉

More seriously there is nothing to support that fact. +/- 50% of migrants to UK are from non EU countries so a leave vote is going to shut the door on everyone?

I doubt it.

[Mike E]

We can't even control immigration from OUTSIDE the EU, but at least it'd be up to us rather than having no choice.

[Baz]

Was it not Gideon that started all this scaremongering by claiming that everyone would be £4000 worse of by 2030!

Here's a man that's gone back on every budget he's presided over and can't get even the basics of government right.

If we opt out, we can control immigration into the country, that's a fact and would mean that the population of Newcastle wouldn't keep entering the country year upon year.

Whilst I don't believe 'foreigners are taking school places, houses and our jobs' it's going to happen at some stage if we don't control the numbers because the Tories are not building new homes or creating a suitable infrastructure to cope.

So that's 1 major benefit of being out.

Unless you are walking away from dealing with the EU, in order to trade with the EU (as per non EU countries like Norway) you have to accept free movement of people. So that 'fact' of controlling immigration may not be factual anyway.

[Husky]

Call it the Murdoch index or the Daily Mail barometer, but whatever issue the Sun, Times, Mail, Express and Telegraph is either for against, the intelligent response is to take a contrarian view.

The conclusion is clear: Britain should Remain in the EU.

The same can be said about voting against what the evil David Cameron and his propaganda machine want.

[Stuart]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/out-and-into-the-world-why-the-spectator-is-for-leave/

[Paul]

^ Is that a hint? 😀 I read the earlier one.

[Stuart]

No comments then?

Questions for Jim and Paul:

Before we joined the EU first time around, what was life like? Were living standards better or worse than today? Were jobs more or fewer? Were houses affordable? Were wages worth more or less? What was quality of life like? What were pension prospects like?

I'm not old enough to remember but would you say, on balance, that the average Briton is better or worse off now, and with better of worse prospects, than the comparable average Briton in the time before we joined the EU?

[gumboots]

If you want an honest answer we are far better off now. Back in 1972 my parents had just had their first bathroom built lived in a house with no central heating and very few people from our village had ever been abroad. Now my kids through choice live in germany and south korea. I live in a 4 bedroom house with a big garden and 2 bathrooms. How much of that is to do with the eu i dont know but its truth

[JBiz]

I've not posted much in this thread but I'm suprised many don't have a similar view to me, the whole referendum is a complete sham. There is much discussion about sides, and how individuals will vote but not much on the whole saga, the hidden reasons for it and the general issues with referendums!

I concur with the being sick of the fearmongering from both sides. I've listened to arguments from the public, colleagues and friends for both and it all boils down to uneducated guesswork. I've been in the same boat since day one because of the lack of consistent facts available.

I've seen no obvious or definitive summary on what the future holds either way, how could I vote on this? I've read many articles, I've listened to all the politicians (when you find yourself agreeing with the chancellor, you know something is a miss..) but it's either been impossible to take in fully or just basic childish mud slinging.

If I was going to vote, it would be for remain based on seeing brexit overall as a step backwards, a divorce or even anti-global! I can't base that on facts so I can't make the decision on it. How can we fix the problems of the EU by walking away? Can we lobby other counties outside the EU to change things for the better without the support of France, Germany etc? I also refuse to vote based on hatred for Gove alone, just doesn't seem right to make a decision like this on past issues with his role as education sec.

I can't make this decision, ultimately that's what politicians are for, to make decisions to benefit the country for all. I'm sure many here know the "device of despots" quotes or the past examples of how these processes have been anything but democratic.

I'm genuinely worried about the result of this, where is the world going?

[gumboots]

It's not often I agree with you but this is a question that should never be asked, a decision we should not have been asked to make. I will vote because I always do. My grandmother was not allowed to vote when she turned 21. Women weren't. So therefore I will vote. It has to be remain because nobody has succeeded in proving to me that we genuinely would be better off out than in

[Tom]

Agree with both of the above posts.

I will vote as I believe I have a duty to but in reality I'm shooting in the dark, I'm not massively swayed either way and never been one of those blokes in the pub relaying sound bytes they've heard elsewhere to sound intelligent.

For me it's remain, the burden of proof as it were was with the leave campaign and they haven't convinced me it's the right idea.

[Husky]

The whole vote is all a bit Bowyer if you ask me. There's those that want to remain and those that would like a change (to see if it's better).

[Mike E]

If I am still undecided tomorrow, I may actually go for the Leave option (as I lean that way, after all).

Chaotic neutral, who wants to see what happens. I don't actually believe much will change in the grand scheme of things, as trade with our neighbours WILL continue.

[gumboots]

And gove will still be in the government. Come on Michael. As a teacher you can't want his side to win?

[Mike E]

As a disabled person, I certainly don't want Cameron's side to win either. If we're talking revolting people, both camps have them.

Leave takes a donation from an alleged BNP member, while Remain takes donations from the people who caused the financial crisis in 2008.

It's all a complete shambles. I don't see how Sadiq Khan can keep a straight face, accusing the Leave campaign of 'hate' (evidently meaning racism), when the LEADER of Remain (Cameron) helped orchestrate a racist campaign against Khan only a few weeks ago!

I can't trust a single argument from anyone on either side.