[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[K-Hod]

Interesting you say that Al, as much as I agree, what you described could also be applied to Brits living on the Costa Del Sol wouldn't you say?

[den]

Nobody is interested in providing facts, they're only interested in winning.

For me it should never have gone to a referendum because we'll never have the facts to make a considered decision.

[joey_big_nose]

Im not sure there has ever been as complex and important decision to make at a referendum as this one. It is impossible to really get good info as everyone says, plus the EU is such an opaque, low profile org, that very very few members of the public understand how it works at all.

Im pro EU, want to stay in, think it offers a huge amount, however major reform is needed.

[dave birch]

K-Hod, those that lived on the Costa del whatever would be governed by the local laws. Al is saying that the laws in England are , to some extent, governed by those who are not British nor live within it's borders.

I lived in Australia when the UK went into the EU. Given the trade that used to exist between Au and the UK, it was thought that AU would go through some very ordinary times. It did not happen.

It was said at the time that Aus and NZ meat could be put on your plate at a cheaper price than from anywhere else (that may or may not have been down to tariffs), but it shows that a countries can survive, and perhaps prosper outside of the EU.

It needs some thought and commitment, but it can be done.

There is nothing to fear from leaving the EU, it just needs a bit of outside the envelope thinking, and things could well prosper.

If the UK left, then I'd bet that very little would change.

[joey_big_nose]

If the UK left, then I'd bet that very little would change.

Short term thats true (provided we and the EU manage the exit well which is a big question in itself) but long term it could have major implications. Realistically to compete with China, India, US etc and manage vast multinationals like Google and Amazon working within the EU is much more promising than trying to do it on our own. We will become smaller and smaller fish in an expanding global market. Do we really want to be a passive isolationist nation like Aus, Norway or Switzerland rather than a regional leader?

Also Scotland leaving the UK would become nailed on.

[yoda]

Short term thats true (provided we and the EU manage the exit well which is a big question in itself) but long term it could have major implications. Realistically to compete with China, India, US etc and manage vast multinationals like Google and Amazon working within the EU is much more promising than trying to do it on our own. We will become smaller and smaller fish in an expanding global market. Do we really want to be a passive isolationist nation like Aus, Norway or Switzerland rather than a regional leader?

Also Scotland leaving the UK would become nailed on.

I think the idea is to trade with China, India and the USA etc.

Scotland leaving the Union would be a big cost saving for the rest of the UK, they have been sponging for decades

[Amo]

The scariest thing about leaving the EU is ceding more power to our current government.

And on an entirely unrelated matter... George Osborne to slash PIP disability benefits by £1.2billion.

[yoda]

The scariest thing about leaving the EU is ceding more power to our current government.

And on an entirely unrelated matter... George Osborne to slash PIP disability benefits by £1.2billion.

Yes but you can vote out our government, try that with the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels

[Al]

Interesting you say that Al, as much as I agree, what you described could also be applied to Brits living on the Costa Del Sol wouldn't you say?

The Brits on Costa del Sol are welcomed by the Spanish. They and the Germans are their main source of income. Spain would be bankrupt without tourism and retirees, and we do not interfere with their way of life or take their jobs,. In fact we create jobs for them.

[yoda]

The Brits on Costa del Sol are welcomed by the Spanish. They and the Germans are their main source of income. Spain would be bankrupt without tourism and retirees, and we do not interfere with their way of life or take their jobs,. In fact we create jobs for them.

Same applies to trade as well Al, we have a trade deficit of 29 billion just with Germany, no way will they stop trading with us.

[Paul]

Same applies to trade as well Al, we have a trade deficit of 29 billion just with Germany, no way will they stop trading with us.

Yes this is very true, in or out EU members will still want to trade with us. What I don't get though is the belief we will no longer be answerable to Brussels.

I imagine it's true that EU legislation will no longer apply in the UK, I don't know but it seems probable. However we will still need to abide by any EU law which influences trade with EU countries, will need to meet EU safety standards, hygiene standards etc. etc. If we want to trade with EU countries there will be no choice other than to comply in exactly the same way as if a Chinese company wants to export to the UK that company has to comply with UK standards.

In or out EU legislation will still impact UK trade we just won't be able to influence that legislation.

We will also still be subject to the European Court of Human Rights as this seperate from the EU.

[yoda]

Yes this is very true, in or out EU members will still want to trade with us. What I don't get though is the belief we will no longer be answerable to Brussels.

I imagine it's true that EU legislation will no longer apply in the UK, I don't know but it seems probable. However we will still need to abide by any EU law which influences trade with EU countries, will need to meet EU safety standards, hygiene standards etc. etc. If we want to trade with EU countries there will be no choice other than to comply in exactly the same way as if a Chinese company wants to export to the UK that company has to comply with UK standards.

In or out EU legislation will still impact UK trade we just won't be able to influence that legislation.

We will also still be subject to the European Court of Human Rights as this seperate from the EU.

British Standards and CE regs converged many years ago with the CE/EU Norms being based on BS so it is not a problem, in some cases we exceed the requirements.

The BS standard or BSI as it is now know is accepted the world over outside of the European community as the a Gold standard.

Rolls Royce use it, need I say more.

We also wrote the book for the European Court of Human rights, so no problem there.

What is wrong though is a bunch of Euro judges making laws that over write our Parliament, lets not forget that these European judges are not accountable to a Parliament !

[JAL]

There's enough for me. I don't want foreigners making our laws or coming to this country and taking benefits and I certainly don't want them imposing their way of life on Britain. OUT, OUT, OUT.

What on earth did your father's sacrifice their lives for in the nineteen forties for us to pull out now when our kids of today will be in debt until their dying day ?

[joey_big_nose]

lets not forget that these European judges are not accountable to a Parliament !

Judges are never accountable to a parliament are they? Separation of powers demands that a parliament has no power over a judiciary.

[Paul]

British Standards and CE regs converged many years ago with the CE/EU Norms being based on BS so it is not a problem, in some cases we exceed the requirements.

The BS standard or BSI as it is now know is accepted the world over outside of the European community as the a Gold standard.

Rolls Royce use it, need I say more.

We also wrote the book for the European Court of Human rights, so no problem there.

What is wrong though is a bunch of Euro judges making laws that over write our Parliament, lets not forget that these European judges are not accountable to a Parliament !

Yes I recognise this and know many companies in my industry who have chosen to apply for BSI as a catchall rather than chase after numerous "kitemark" style awards. The point is we currently comply with and influence EU legislation but outside the EU will not be able to influence how future legislation, especially surrounding trade, will be formed.

I know as part of the Council of Europe we helped write the book on ECHR I mentioned it because I have the feeling we people confuse the ECHR with the European Court of Justice which is an EU court. As for judges being answerable to parliament as has already been pointed out they aren't. We will be in trouble the day judges become answerable to parliament, judges interpret and change bad law when they perceive it as such - long may this continue.

I'm very concerned we may vote "out" and many will base there decision, as has already been illustrated in this thread, on emotion rather than cold, hard facts. Nothing wrong with emotion but in this instance it's the wrong way to chose. The vote is effectively for children's future and not our own. This aside the referendum has been called for all the wrong reasons - Cameron needed to a deal inside his own party, he knew promising a referendum was the key to this and made the promise. it's got little to do with whether we should be in or out of the EU. Cameron then popped off to the EU for a few weeks, did a meaningless deal and returned to tell us what a great step forward he had achieved.

While I know the electorate has the right to chose I can't help but feel the referendum should not be taking place. An out vote risks real damage to the country.

[Al]

What on earth did your father's sacrifice their lives for in the nineteen forties for us to pull out now when our kids of today will be in debt until their dying day ?

They certainly didn't sacrifice their lives to be ruled by Brussels (and indirectly Germany) Germany were the enemy. I don't see the point of your post.

[ABBEY]

What on earth did your father's sacrifice their lives for in the nineteen forties for us to pull out now when our kids of today will be in debt until their dying day ?

Er to stop the nazis and to stop hitler and co ruling the world and not kids debts

[yoda]

Yes I recognise this and know many companies in my industry who have chosen to apply for BSI as a catchall rather than chase after numerous "kitemark" style awards. The point is we currently comply with and influence EU legislation but outside the EU will not be able to influence how future legislation, especially surrounding trade, will be formed.

I know as part of the Council of Europe we helped write the book on ECHR I mentioned it because I have the feeling we people confuse the ECHR with the European Court of Justice which is an EU court. As for judges being answerable to parliament as has already been pointed out they aren't. We will be in trouble the day judges become answerable to parliament, judges interpret and change bad law when they perceive it as such - long may this continue.

I'm very concerned we may vote "out" and many will base there decision, as has already been illustrated in this thread, on emotion rather than cold, hard facts. Nothing wrong with emotion but in this instance it's the wrong way to chose. The vote is effectively for children's future and not our own. This aside the referendum has been called for all the wrong reasons - Cameron needed to a deal inside his own party, he knew promising a referendum was the key to this and made the promise. it's got little to do with whether we should be in or out of the EU. Cameron then popped off to the EU for a few weeks, did a meaningless deal and returned to tell us what a great step forward he had achieved.

While I know the electorate has the right to chose I can't help but feel the referendum should not be taking place. An out vote risks real damage to the country.

How supreme court judges are appointed http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8283967.stm paragraph headed How will the justices be appointed?

How do you think we will be treated by for example France if we stay in the EU ?

The EU is going to change in a big way in the next couple of years and most of it unfortunately not planned.

Turkey has Brussels over a barrel at the moment and the ransom is 3 billion Euro's with freedom of movement for it's near 80 million population in the Schengen zone. This will be forced through by Germany with self interest taking over. The result will be other countries closing their borders and bringing an end to the Schengen zone.

Also if we stay in it will be open house for other counties to try their hand at negotiating opt outs.

Cameron has let an almighty powerful genie out of the bottle, either knowingly or not, and the 28 or 27 countries if we leave, will not be able to agree on a plan to get it back in the bottle.

I just cannot see any practical reason for a political European super state as opposed to a European free trade area.

The European super state with one European government is a failed Bilderberg project. Part of their globalisation plan for the planet, you will see Bilderberg members speaking out in support of the EU in the coming weeks. I think they have misjudged national identity somewhat (not just the British) and are going to pay the price.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/08/bilderberg-summit-forget-the-g7

http://uk.businessinsider.com/list-of-ceos-and-politicians-invited-to-2015-bilderberg-conference-in-austria-2015-6

Add Tony Blair, Mandelson, Shirley Williams and more to those list !

[Steve Moss]

Judges are never accountable to a parliament are they? Separation of powers demands that a parliament has no power over a judiciary.

Then how are judges held to account? Or are they unaccountable?

[Paul]

Then how are judges held to account? Or are they unaccountable?

Judges are effectively responsible to a higher court. Clearly I had to look up the detail but it's not hard to find.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Consultations/accountability.pdf

"It is generally accepted that, save in accordance with the Act of Settlement 1701, judges cannot be held accountable either to Parliament or to the executive in the sacrificial sense and that they cannot be externally accountable for their decisions. Such accountability would be incompatible with the principle of the independence of the judiciary. But, save for the House of Lords, they are held to account by higher courts hearing appeals, and (save where the issue is one of EU law) it is open to Parliament to legislate in order to reverse the effect of a decision or body of doctrine. Moreover, the duty to give reasons for decisions is a clear example of explanatory accountability which assists transparency and scrutiny by the other branches of the state and the public (as well as facilitating appeals)."

[PeteJD13]

Short term thats true (provided we and the EU manage the exit well which is a big question in itself) but long term it could have major implications. Realistically to compete with China, India, US etc and manage vast multinationals like Google and Amazon working within the EU is much more promising than trying to do it on our own. We will become smaller and smaller fish in an expanding global market. Do we really want to be a passive isolationist nation like Aus, Norway or Switzerland rather than a regional leader?

Also Scotland leaving the UK would become nailed on.

I would be interested to see how the SNP would spin it if the in vote wins but the vote breakdown in Scotland is for an out vote. I don't like the rhetoric of the brexit campaign and the constant shooting down of anything pro EU. Having lived in Cardiff for 5 years a city that benefitted immensely from the EU. I am voting to stay in, I am just not comfortable with the brexit aftermath scenario we would be left in isolation and we would probably be trying to get back in 15 years down the line.

[joey_big_nose]

I would be interested to see how the SNP would spin it if the in vote wins but the vote breakdown in Scotland is for an out vote.

I cant see a scenario where Scotland is more out than England. They are much more keen on staying than those south of the border.

[joey_big_nose]

Then how are judges held to account? Or are they unaccountable?

Great answer from Paul above. It is a similar story in the US. Once appointed politically (usually by the President for supreme court or governor for state) Judges are beyond reproach unless they are impeached. Impeachment is very rare and has nothing to do with public approval, it requires a judge to have comitted and be convicted of a crime.It has only happened once over 200 years ago.

No one has managed globally to figure out a system where judges can both be independent yet accountable to an electorate. Its a fundamental problem without a solution as far as I can see.

[PeteJD13]

I cant see a scenario where Scotland is more out than England. They are much more keen on staying than those south of the border.

no nor me tbh, if both England and Scotland vote by a majority to stay in I wonder what the next referendum threat will be trident renewal? and the jobs it creates/keeps

[yoda]

I would be interested to see how the SNP would spin it if the in vote wins but the vote breakdown in Scotland is for an out vote. I don't like the rhetoric of the brexit campaign and the constant shooting down of anything pro EU. Having lived in Cardiff for 5 years a city that benefitted immensely from the EU. I am voting to stay in, I am just not comfortable with the brexit aftermath scenario we would be left in isolation and we would probably be trying to get back in 15 years down the line.

In 15 years the EU as we know it now will be a completely different animal, probably with no one wanting to join. Except for the spongers like Scotland