[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Stuart]

If you want an honest answer we are far better off now. Back in 1972 my parents had just had their first bathroom built lived in a house with no central heating and very few people from our village had ever been abroad. Now my kids through choice live in germany and south korea. I live in a 4 bedroom house with a big garden and 2 bathrooms. How much of that is to do with the eu i dont know but its truth

First bathroom built? I've yet to have a bathroom built.

But there's an irony in you post that your children are better off and both of them have left Britain to become so.

And gove will still be in the government. Come on Michael. As a teacher you can't want his side to win?

Although this is part jest, and you will have different reasons, this is one of the problems with the current approach to voting. People vote for personalities rather than the political party or policies.

"Yeah I'd vote Leave but I don't want Boris or Gove in charge".

Makes me suspicious of the Tory approach to the whole debate. Pariahs in one side and saviours in the other.

[Paul]

No comments then?

Questions for Jim and Paul:

Before we joined the EU first time around, what was life like? Were living standards better or worse than today? Were jobs more or fewer? Were houses affordable? Were wages worth more or less? What was quality of life like? What were pension prospects like?

I'm not old enough to remember but would you say, on balance, that the average Briton is better or worse off now, and with better of worse prospects, than the comparable average Briton in the time before we joined the EU?

I've read it again and overall I don't agree with the conclusion to vote leave. The arguments for leaving are well presented but equally several fall back on points both sides make - no one knows what the future holds and they, being the other side depending on who you support, are at best massaging the numbers - lieing.

My vote to Remain is based on what I experience day to day and have done through my working life. For me that's real. I don't believe some of the figures from either side. I feel Leave have failed because their arguments have not caused me to question my views and because they come from politicians who hold no power to enforce change, keep their promises and who have stated publically they wish to dismantle some of our most important institutions. I don't want to be governed by Johnson or Gove.

The second part of your question is huge. The key point in your question for me is it implies that the average Briton's position and prospects are governed entirely by our EU membership. It also implies our EU membership is solely responsible for where we are today. That's not true in my view. There are many more influences on our lives. I'm not capable of doing the question justice and I think there are both yes and no answers.

I was 21, earning at a guess £30 per week, paying off the overdraft from college and living in a one room flat in an elderly lady's house. The overdraft sticks in my mind; my bank manager had hauled me in to discuss it, converted it to a cheaper form of loan and then offered me a Saturday job in his garden to meet the repayments!!!!!!!! I had never been abroad and only ever met one "foreign" person. Gammon with either pineapple or egg was exotic. Chicken in a basket! Wow.

My children were in a better position at the same age.

Prospects and do they result from directly the EU? I don't think anyone can answer that. How much is due to our own efforts and how much is because opportunities opened up is difficult to gauge. I'm lucky to be my age, I think my generation, and those around my age, should acknowledge our good fortune. We should be helping to pay for the future and we aren't.

You're effectively asking is my life better than my parents? The answer has to be yes. I've travelled, experienced people, cultures, food music, theatre, technological marvels, space exploration, hugely changed social attitudes, enjoyed greater freedom in every sense.

My children have even more. The big difference is young people no longer face the pressure to leave school, get a job, settle down. To travel, experience the world, swap careers etc. is seen in an entirely new and liberated way.

However the future isn't, in my book, entirely rosy. My children probably won't buy a house till I die. But does that matter? I see it as a problem, they as an aspiration but then again we always encourage them to live life and not be shackled by convention. Future pensions? Anyone who can should look to save for their own retirement unless they want to work in to their 70s. I'd rather my kids saved for a pension than a house.

The challenge we face as a country is to protect and develop the progress we have made and give our children a better future than ours. EU membership will make a contribution to this but the main driver will be how we invest in our own country and whether or not today's generations are prepared to help fund the future. Many indicators suggest that's not the case.

[philipl]

No comments then?

Questions for Jim and Paul:

Before we joined the EU first time around, what was life like? Were living standards better or worse than today? Were jobs more or fewer? Were houses affordable? Were wages worth more or less? What was quality of life like? What were pension prospects like?

I'm not old enough to remember but would you say, on balance, that the average Briton is better or worse off now, and with better of worse prospects, than the comparable average Briton in the time before we joined the EU?

Everything was vastly worse on all fronts before 1971.

[ABBEY]

Maybe but things are more modern and its an age ago so you cant compare. Blimy colour tvs were scarse then.

[gumboots]

First bathroom built? I've yet to have a bathroom built.

But there's an irony in you post that your children are better off and both of them have left Britain to become so.

Although this is part jest, and you will have different reasons, this is one of the problems with the current approach to voting. People vote for personalities rather than the political party or policies.

"Yeah I'd vote Leave but I don't want Boris or Gove in charge".

Makes me suspicious of the Tory approach to the whole debate. Pariahs in one side and saviours in the other.

we didn't have a bathroom. They had to build one in what had been the outside toilet and coal house, just so we could have access to the toilet from inside rather than having to go down the yard to the toilet. 2 of my kids still live in Britain and do pretty well too. My eldest met a German guy whilst working in Italy, did a degree in Germany when she moved there to be with him. She didn't move there for the lifestyle but for the guy. My son went to Korea for one year and found he enjoyed the job so stayed. Again nothing to say he couldn't have done perfectly well here.

And as to voting for personality. Yes to some extent people do, but in Gove's case he could be as revolting as he wants if he were good at his job but the guy is incompetent or was at the education dept and, like Rovers managers, I'd prefer my leader to have had at least some success.

And I don't love any of the remain side, like Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn. They haven't made good decisions in the case of the Tory 2 and we know little of what Corbyn could or would actually do if he were in power, but the plight of our club suggests that sometimes it's better to stick with the devil you know than to risk change. There are risks worth taking and risks that are not and imo leaving the EU is not one I want to take.

[dave birch]

Everything was vastly worse on all fronts before 1971.

and for me Philip, leaving in 1969 with no degree, no qualifications to speak of, it's been fantastic ( I really mean that) all bar a year or so outside of the EU.

Would I go back and live in the UK?

No way.

If I could live my life again it would be as it was, and end up in Australia.

[perthblue02]

Everything was vastly worse on all fronts before 1971.

Unfortunately there can be no fully valid comparison (if the argument is has the EU made things better) between what life in Britain was like before and after what was sold to the people in 1973, which worth remembering is not what the EU is today or what those who voted for it were sold. ( I think this particular argument is going to crop up again in another 20 years if the EU has not collapsed by then)

To say life (living standards) was worse in Britain pre 73 yes it could be argued that, but I would guess that would be the same in a hell of a lot of countries outside the EU,but that has a lot more to do with other things than being a member of the EU.

Now if the comparison of a similar situation was only a smaller year scale say 10 years (Britain had joined the EU in 2006) then that may have some legs comparison wise..

For instance on the date given by Phillip that was only 26 years after the end of the war and could be argued that Britain was still recovering.

Is it safer for children to play out on the streets now, it was when I was a kid in the 70's, but that is not because of the EU

Do we have companies on strike nearly every week, and blackouts because of it, we did in the 70's, but that is not because of the EU

More people have vehicles now than pre 73, but that is not because of EU membership.

I do remember my parents getting a bathroom built in a terrace house pre 73, ( because it took half of my bedroom away), that was not down to the EU, that was down to my Dad paying for it from wages from the company who he worked for, who ironically was eventually taken over by a German company and then split and largely moved abroad to operations in other EU countries with the aid of an EU grant (that was part the EU's fault )

So unfortunately we have no parallel universe non EU member Britain to compare against.

[dave birch]

Well made comment there PB.

If I were to vote, It would be out, but that would be because I've seen "the outside".

[gumboots]

Actually you haven't seen what it's like on the outside compared to the inside. You've seen life elsewhere, that's all. None of us have seen current Britain inside and outside. Personally I don't want to see us outside.

[yoda]

Actually you haven't seen what it's like on the outside compared to the inside. You've seen life elsewhere, that's all. None of us have seen current Britain inside and outside. Personally I don't want to see us outside.

Outside is far far bigger,

just saying

Did the standing ovation for Johnson last night (from both sides of the audience) take anyone by suurprise ?

I certainly didn't expect something like that to happen.

[T J Hooker]

as things stand(and theres little timw left to change minds now) i feel that 'stay' will sadly win by at least 65%, i think the fear mongering has really worked its trick and set a lot of seeds of doubt into 'leave' voters minds

i hope I'm proved very wrong though

[K-Hod]

as things stand(and theres little timw left to change minds now) i feel that 'stay' will sadly win by at least 65%, i think the fear mongering has really worked its trick and set a lot of seeds of doubt into 'leave' voters minds

i hope I'm proved very wrong though

Nah,I can't agree. I think it will be VERY tight. The 'Leave' voters have seemed certain from day one, as have most of the 'Remain'.

Neither side of this debate comes out well re the scaremongering imo, both as bad as each other.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Watched the debate on BBC1 last night, thought it was even overall but the clear star of the debate was Ruth Davidson. I've been following Ruth for some time and especially during the Scottish Referendum when she played a key part in securing a remain vote. She was really impressive last night, absolutely dominated Boris and made him look like the utter buffoon he is.

A possible future Tory leader at some point if the Conservative party have any sense.

[yoda]

Watched the debate on BBC1 last night, thought it was even overall but the clear star of the debate was Ruth Davidson. I've been following Ruth for some time and especially during the Scottish Referendum when she played a key part in securing a remain vote. She was really impressive last night, absolutely dominated Boris and made him look like the utter buffoon he is.

A possible future Tory leader at some point if the Conservative party have any sense.

Confirmation in that post of how hate peremiates throughout the refrendum process.

Johnson obviously sruck a chord (maybe by accident) with the audience last night with his summing up at the end.

If Cameron had succeeded in getting reform of the EU instead of the temporary minor measure on freedom of movement the result would not be in doubt.

[gumboots]

Nah,I can't agree. I think it will be VERY tight. The 'Leave' voters have seemed certain from day one, as have most of the 'Remain'.

Neither side of this debate comes out well re the scaremongering imo, both as bad as each other.

I'd agree with you that both sides are as bad as one another. I have no love for either. It's just I prefer Cameron's version of things to Johnson and Gove's but that's not saying much. I too think it will be close. what is true is that with the burden of proof on them the Leave campaign have been noisier and I think if they'd been able to produce a single solid correct fact they'd be sweeping the nation by now. as it is, they have made lots of noise but said very little that they can prove and I think that's why many people are still undecided.

[Biddy]

A man stands on the edge of the cliff and you warn him that if he falls over he is likely to be killed. Is that "fear-mongering" or a warning of the possible repercussions of the consequences of his actions ?.

And then the man takes a better look and realises its not a cliff at all but merely a step into the unknown and wonders why he was being told he would be killed.

[T J Hooker]

Nah,I can't agree. I think it will be VERY tight. The 'Leave' voters have seemed certain from day one, as have most of the 'Remain'.

Neither side of this debate comes out well re the scaremongering imo, both as bad as each other.

but when it comes down to it i think those voting stay will be far more likely to actually go out and cast their vote, where as i think there's a large section of the 'leave' voters that wont actually get of their arses and go out to cast their vote, mainly those that are only jumping on the referendum band wagon because it gives them a chance to air their (biggoted)views on 'foreigners'(same people that claim to aupport bnb,nf, ukip etc.. but know nothing really about politics and wont actually bother to vote when it comes down to it)

[Gav]

Just a pity that the ballot paper doesn't have a 3rd option, vote for neither leave or remain due to lying sods on both sides having destroyed anything remotely close to democracy.

The Scottish referendum was the benchmark, a campaign fought with integrity and honesty for the most part, fantastic turnout also, the EU referendum is just a disgrace, much like the vast majority of today's politicians.

[Biddy]

Just a pity that the ballot paper doesn't have a 3rd option, vote for neither leave or remain due to lying sods on both sides having destroyed anything remotely close to democracy.

The Scottish referendum was the benchmark, a campaign fought with integrity and honesty for the most part, fantastic turnout also, the EU referendum is just a disgrace, much like the vast majority of today's politicians.

Eh? wasn't the Scottish leave campaign built on lies about how rich their economy would be?

Glasgow riots - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/glasgow-riots-footage-shows-yes-and-no-voters-in-running-street-battles-in-disorder-after-pro-union-9745771.html

[K-Hod]

but when it comes down to it i think those voting stay will be far more likely to actually go out and cast their vote, where as i think there's a large section of the 'leave' voters that wont actually get of their arses and go out to cast their vote, mainly those that are only jumping on the referendum band wagon because it gives them a chance to air their (biggoted)views on 'foreigners'(same people that claim to aupport bnb,nf, ukip etc.. but know nothing really about politics and wont actually bother to vote when it comes down to it)

I'd say a lot of older people, (barring my folks!) would be more likely to be 'Vote Leave' voters and older people always turn out in good numbers for elections/referendums.

[yoda]

Some commentators predicting an 80% plus turn out, which I assume means the grey vote has been mobilised.

[only2garners]

The grey vote always comes out - an 80% turnout (which I doubt) can only mean the under 30s will be voting in bigger numbers than usual.

[yoda]

The grey vote always comes out - an 80% turnout (which I doubt) can only mean the under 30s will be voting in bigger numbers than usual.

I was just commenting on what the "experts" have been saying this morning.

"expert" being the buzz word in the remain camp

[jim mk2]

And then the man takes a better look and realises its not a cliff at all but merely a step into the unknown and wonders why he was being told he would be killed.

But then he steps into the "unknown" and realises it was not just a cliff but a deep dark chasm which has no bottom. And he realises that he should have listened to the advice.

A lowish turnout or a very high turnout would be better for Leave according to a piece I read today whereas somewhere in the middle would be better for Remain. I'm not sure how that works but pollsters have their ways.

It's comical reading about people who have left the country and said they would never come back. My old schoolteacher had a word for them = failures.

[ABBEY]

Bunkum