[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Not had it yet but won't read a word on general principle. Thought the whole concept of a referendum was that its applied for decisions considered too big to have the select few in government decide.

This basically amounts to the government saying its your decision but you should do this.

[Baz]

I had an anti-EU one about 3 weeks ago before this leaflet thing came up, shame I threw it in the bin.

Presumably it was funded by an individual, rather than an anti-EU campaign, because that would be outrageous.

What a seemingly small thing to get het up about, it's probably costing less than Farages MEP expenses account.

[perthblue02]

I had an anti-EU one about 3 weeks ago before this leaflet thing came up, shame I threw it in the bin.

Presumably it was funded by an individual, rather than an anti-EU campaign, because that would be outrageous.

What a seemingly small thing to get het up about, it's probably costing less than Farages MEP expenses account.

Does he claim more than 9 million pounds (of tax payers money)? If the anti-Eu was from the Go campaign then you are right it was mostly funded by a very rich individual who is bankrolling it.

[Baz]

Does he claim more than 9 million pounds (of tax payers money)? If the anti-Eu was from the Go campaign then you are right it was mostly funded by a very rich individual who is bankrolling it.

Well he was at £2m in 2009, so probably close by now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

[perthblue02]

It's only the guardian article that is anywhere near that amount from a quick search on google. The nearest in total amount I can find is from the Mirror from 2015 and includes all UKIP MEP's http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-expenses-storm-ukip-6377358

Just shows how much of the money is wasted being part of and paying into the European Jolly slush fund if you x that by all countries MEP's and associated costs.

[Baz]

It's only the guardian article that is anywhere near that amount from a quick search on google. The nearest in total amount I can find is from the Mirror from 2015 and includes all UKIP MEP's http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-expenses-storm-ukip-6377358

Just shows how much of the money is wasted being part of and paying into the European Jolly slush fund if you x that by all countries MEP's and associated costs.

Undoubtably there is wasted money, but what is uncertain is if it's worthwhile as a cost of being part of the marketplace. Like accountants who try to stop sales spending money wooing clients, then wondering why no new business is coming through the door.

Theres definitely ways to trim the fat i.e. £222 per day subsistence money for hotels, food etc whilst in Brussels/Strasburg seems excessive.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I had an anti-EU one about 3 weeks ago before this leaflet thing came up, shame I threw it in the bin.

Presumably it was funded by an individual, rather than an anti-EU campaign, because that would be outrageous.

What a seemingly small thing to get het up about, it's probably costing less than Farages MEP expenses account.

A seemingly small thing? Undermining the ultimate democratic process and using tax payers money to do it is seemingly small? If I took your money and sent you a Burnley match programme would you be happy about it?

If the government has decided the public deserve to decide this one then they should stay out of it. Not spend millions attempting to be the pivotal voice in the debate. I'm tempted to send it back with a letter saying my opinion has bugger all to do with them and demanding a tax refund for my share of the £9 million.

[Baz]

A seemingly small thing? Undermining the ultimate democratic process and using tax payers money to do it is seemingly small? If I took your money and sent you a Burnley match programme would you be happy about it?

If the government has decided the public deserve to decide this one then they should stay out of it. Not spend millions attempting to be the pivotal voice in the debate. I'm tempted to send it back with a letter saying my opinion has bugger all to do with them and demanding a tax refund for my share of the £9 million.

Its £9m, what % of our gdp is that? Its about time both campaigns actually debated the issues, addressed the concerns rather than relying on this 'project fear' nonsense.

As for democratic processes, well i think this is well behind hereditary peers, first past the post, etc.

How much is your tax share of the £9m? I'm willing to bet its less than a penny unless you are a top earner.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Its £9m, what % of our gdp is that? Its about time both campaigns actually debated the issues, addressed the concerns rather than relying on this 'project fear' nonsense.

As for democratic processes, well i think this is well behind hereditary peers, first past the post, etc.

How much is your tax share of the £9m? I'm willing to bet its less than a penny unless you are a top earner.

The amount isn't the crucial factor, its the principle. I often here numbers described as negligible when referring to public spending but thousands of negligibles can add up to something substantial and every one that is wasteful or unnecessary should be taken seriously. I'm not obsessed with money or the type of person who'll sacrifice laziness and take plastic bags to go do my shopping. But if someone else other than me is spending my money, then ultra-responsibility and frugality where possible is the attitude I expect them to have.

The government has already made its stance clear in the news etc, this blanket leafletting campaign is a big step too far. And how they consider it right to spend taxpayers money on it is beyond me.

I meant a referendum is the ultimate democracy as in its totally direct. You don't vote to decide who makes the decisions, you vote to make the decision. The government should respect that after they proposed the thing.

[Biddy]

I don't like the fact the booklet says something like "The Government thinks its better to stay in the EU". There should be a caveat that says, "well some of the members anyway, not all, but some"

[jim mk2]

It should read

"Members of the government including those in the cabinet who are in cahoots with the business interests in the City of London think it is better to stay in the EU while other members from the Eurosceptic right wing think it is better to stay. The truth is the government is hopelessly divided on the issue and is likely to fall apart in the event of a Brexit and the prime minister resign.."

[yoda]

It should read

"Members of the government including those in the cabinet who are in cahoots with the business interests in the City of London think it is better to stay in the EU while other members from the Eurosceptic right wing think it is better to stay. The truth is the government is hopelessly divided on the issue and is likely to fall apart in the event of a Brexit and the prime minister resign.."

The Labour leader is also in favour of leaving under the current terms

[perthblue02]

Never thought I would see the day when when the die hard left are in the same camp as one bankrolled by JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs. The smell of champagne left lingering by Mr Blair and friends? Does it smell sweet ?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36038217

Flippin heck lets get the hell out. Tusk is starting to sound desperate. Its not a crisis, its a growing global phenomenon that's here to stay and Europe as a continent has absolutely no chance of stopping it.

[Baz]

The amount isn't the crucial factor, its the principle. I often here numbers described as negligible when referring to public spending but thousands of negligibles can add up to something substantial and every one that is wasteful or unnecessary should be taken seriously. I'm not obsessed with money or the type of person who'll sacrifice laziness and take plastic bags to go do my shopping. But if someone else other than me is spending my money, then ultra-responsibility and frugality where possible is the attitude I expect them to have.

The government has already made its stance clear in the news etc, this blanket leafletting campaign is a big step too far. And how they consider it right to spend taxpayers money on it is beyond me.

I meant a referendum is the ultimate democracy as in its totally direct. You don't vote to decide who makes the decisions, you vote to make the decision. The government should respect that after they proposed the thing.

I just don't see the amount spent as being the reason here, its pro-exit people unhappy that Cameron has managed to get the leaflet published, whilst they continue their project fear rhetoric and try to avoid answering any of the points being raised. I haven't got a leaflet yet, but of course it's going to be biased, I haven't heard a single unbiased viewpoint yet, however I think it's totally valid for the government to have a viewpoint, and I respect that some cabinet members have a different viewpoint too, but the current PM and chancellor are the primary ministers and are pro-stay. Unfortunately the fight at present seems to be less about Europe, and more about George & Dave vs Boris, plus immigration rather than a full discussion of the benefits of staying vs the benefits of leaving.

[yoda]

I just don't see the amount spent as being the reason here, its pro-exit people unhappy that Cameron has managed to get the leaflet published, whilst they continue their project fear rhetoric and try to avoid answering any of the points being raised. I haven't got a leaflet yet, but of course it's going to be biased, I haven't heard a single unbiased viewpoint yet, however I think it's totally valid for the government to have a viewpoint, and I respect that some cabinet members have a different viewpoint too, but the current PM and chancellor are the primary ministers and are pro-stay. Unfortunately the fight at present seems to be less about Europe, and more about George & Dave vs Boris, plus immigration rather than a full discussion of the benefits of staying vs the benefits of leaving.

He had to go to Germany to get it printed, so much for UK jobs !

It is also full of statements that do not stand up to scrutiny.

[Baz]

He had to go to Germany to get it printed, so much for UK jobs !

It is also full of statements that do not stand up to scrutiny.

Cant say they ain't consistent with day to day government then.

Surprised they haven't been printed on Osborne & Little paper, but then again maybe theres a lot of cheap labour available in Germany....

[yoda]

Cant say they ain't consistent with day to day government then.

Surprised they haven't been printed on Osborne & Little paper, but then again maybe theres a lot of cheap labour available in Germany....

That and a printing company that has had many an EU grant

[JAL]

When ?

When do we all get full and comprehensive independent information with regards to the UK and Europe coupled with the world economy to be able to make a valid judgement on wether to stay in or come out of Europe ?

[yoda]

When ?

When do we all get full and comprehensive independent information with regards to the UK and Europe coupled with the world economy to be able to make a valid judgement on wether to stay in or come out of Europe ?

We don't,

If we did and it went the wrong way (which ever way that is) the politicians would be to blame, this way it is the voters to blame.

I am convinced Cameron wants out anyway (Michael Portilo said as much last night) why antagonise the electorate with that pamplet ?

Said pamplet has been commented on and sent back to 10 Downing Street recorded delivery.

If that bullstein from Corbyn yesterday was a commited speach of a future PM in waiting I will show my rectum in Burton's window.

Both of them want the same outcome in my view and have previously made that public

[Paul]

After reading the government leaflet it's hard to understand what all the fuss is about.

The government was elected by us to govern. In the government's view the UK should stay in the EU and has chosen to explain why in the hope/expectation the electorate will agree.

As for the £9m cost? Again the UK elected the government and gave it the mandate to spend UK tax revenues as it sees fit. The government clearly feels a £9m investment to try and ensure the electorate make an informed decision is small beer, which it is.

Another storm in a teacup when bigger things need addressing.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

After reading the government leaflet it's hard to understand what all the fuss is about.

The government was elected by us to govern. In the government's view the UK should stay in the EU and has chosen to explain why in the hope/expectation the electorate will agree.

As for the £9m cost? Again the UK elected the government and gave it the mandate to spend UK tax revenues as it sees fit. The government clearly feels a £9m investment to try and ensure the electorate make an informed decision is small beer, which it is.

Another storm in a teacup when bigger things need addressing.

Well I can't understand why everyone is complaining about a hospital closure in one thread and defending the government for wasting £9 million in another. Biased perhaps.

[Al]

After reading the government leaflet it's hard to understand what all the fuss is about.

The government was elected by us to govern. In the government's view the UK should stay in the EU and has chosen to explain why in the hope/expectation the electorate will agree.

As for the £9m cost? Again the UK elected the government and gave it the mandate to spend UK tax revenues as it sees fit. The government clearly feels a £9m investment to try and ensure the electorate make an informed decision is small beer, which it is.

Another storm in a teacup when bigger things need addressing.

But it's wrong to say it's the government view when many of the government do not agree. Cameron does not have the right to generalise in that way. In fact it is close to lying.

[ABBEY]

After reading the government leaflet it's hard to understand what all the fuss is about.

The government was elected by us to govern. In the government's view the UK should stay in the EU and has chosen to explain why in the hope/expectation the electorate will agree.

As for the £9m cost? Again the UK elected the government and gave it the mandate to spend UK tax revenues as it sees fit. The government clearly feels a £9m investment to try and ensure the electorate make an informed decision is small beer, which it is.

Another storm in a teacup when bigger things need addressing.

chorley hospital?

[Paul]

Well I can't understand why everyone is complaining about a hospital closure in one thread and defending the government for wasting £9 million in another. Biased perhaps.

I feel it's perfectly possible to agree with one aspect of government while strongly disagreeing with another. Surely to have any other view would be blinkered. Fundamentally I disagree with much of this government's actions but there are areas where I agree with them. The EU is one.

I fail to see any bias. In fact I'd argue those who always take a specific view are those with a bias.