[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Paul]

But it's wrong to say it's the government view when many of the government do not agree. Cameron does not have the right to generalise in that way. In fact it is close to lying.

I'd disagree. The government view is we should remain in the EU but as part of their manifesto the Tory party offered, mistakenly in my view, the country a referendum.

Within all political parties there us disagreement on in or out. The government has given those within the Tory party who wish to campaign for out the opportunity to do so. Therefore government position is to stay but those who disagree are not expected to toe the party line. Seems reasonable.

[Al]

I'd disagree. The government view is we should remain in the EU but as part of their manifesto the Tory party offered, mistakenly in my view, the country a referendum.

Within all political parties there us disagreement on in or out. The government has given those within the Tory party who wish to campaign for out the opportunity to do so. Therefore government position is to stay but those who disagree are not expected to toe the party line. Seems reasonable.

I don't see the logic of that opinion Paul. If the government were to debate the referendum within the Conservative party I am convinced that he would not get 100% agreeing to that without a whip. Therefore it is wrong to say that the government support staying in the EU when a large proportion (probably less than 50%) don't.

[brinscall]

i want out. the need to self govern is vital for the preservation of our sovereignty. the european court of human rights is just a gravy train for blood sucking lawyers, prosecute and defence. our nation is ran by lawyers, as are many others. they pee in the same pot, and will push through any laws that keeps them enriched.

we need to be able to execute and gaol our criminals for as long as we wish without some european lawyer interfering and causing retrials and appeals to which he/she and their kind get paid massive amount of money for doing so.

in fact i'll put my neck on the line and say we'd be better off overhauling our entire political system.

[Paul]

brinscall you need to realise the European Court of Human Rights is a part of the Council of Europe and not the EU. If the UK leaves the EU this would have no impact on our relationship with ECHR which would remain unchanged.

Where there would be a change is our relationship with the European Court of Justice which is an EU institution.

It's a common mistake.

[Paul]

I don't see the logic of that opinion Paul. If the government were to debate the referendum within the Conservative party I am convinced that he would not get 100% agreeing to that without a whip. Therefore it is wrong to say that the government support staying in the EU when a large proportion (probably less than 50%) don't.

I agree the majority within the Tory party probably want out. However the Tory party is not the government - you and I can join the Tory party. We need to make this distinction.

I've read two-thirds of Tory MPs in the parliamentary party want out. However party managers think around only 100 will go against their leader.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/09/tory-mps-britain-european-union-eu-brexit

However the government, as I understand it, is the cabinet and ultimately the PM is responsible for policy which in this instance is to stay in. The government is responsible to and needs the support of the Commons. Which is why push comes to shove the Tory party will support the government position as not to do so could bring down the government.

I could be wrong but I think this is how it works. The Tory party is not the government. Hence my distinction.

[Al]

I agree the majority within the Tory party probably want out. However the Tory party is not the government - you and I can join the Tory party. We need to make this distinction.

I've read two-thirds of Tory MPs in the parliamentary party want out. However party managers think around only 100 will go against their leader.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/09/tory-mps-britain-european-union-eu-brexit

However the government, as I understand it, is the cabinet and ultimately the PM is responsible for policy which in this instance is to stay in. The government is responsible to and needs the support of the Commons. Which is why push comes to shove the Tory party will support the government position as not to do so could bring down the government.

I could be wrong but I think this is how it works. The Tory party is not the government. Hence my distinction.

Surely the government is the house of commons and if you push it you have to include the house of lords. It is therefore wrong to publish a leaflet when there has been no vote to support it.

[Paul]

Al I'm not trying to be rude or awkward here but I feel you need to do some reading. The House of Commons is parliament not government. The House of Lords is unelected and its prime function is to act as a check on the Commons.

I think you're confusing different bodies here. It seems you're arguing what is and isn't government to suit your own view.

The leaflet boils down to the government, led by Cameron, believing the UK should vote to stay in. All the political parties are allowing their members, MPs, etc. a free vote on the referendum and freedom to campaign. The government is communicating it's view to the electorate as are the Brexit people.

It's democracy. No party whip on this one.

[Gav]

I've not posted on this thread so far because I'm unsure where I stand on the campaign, but reading the media this morning I think the 'In campaign' has played its trump card by claiming people will be £4300 worse off, by 2030!

Mystic Osborne/Treasury can't even tell us how the UK economy will be in 6 months let alone 2030! The treasury told us we'd have no debt by 2015! its just plain old guess work. Its a little bit embarrassing really.

Tell us how it will be in 5yrs, that would be more useful!

People in this day and age are interested in themselves, have little or no interest in anyone else and if they're going to feel the pinch in the pocket its usually a vote winner. The Tories played that card last time out by claiming they'll cut services to the bone, hammer people on welfare whether in need or benefits or not, but 'we'll all be better off financially' under the Tories and it worked a treat, Osborne has done that again today and even at this early stage I think its a winner.

[Biddy]

I think I agree with you GAV, but can't really work out whether you think it's good or bad.

Completely agree that Osbourne doesn't know his arse from his elbow so how on earth are we to believe completely made up numbers for 2030!!

Personally I think it just makes the In campaign look desperate to shock people.

[Gav]

I honestly don't know which option is best Biddy, but I'm not interested in £4300 worse off by 2030 thats for sure!

We give the EU £350m a week, but get a proportion of that back, but we cannot spend on what we want, its determined by the EU where some of that cash goes. This seems absurd to me, why isn't that going to the NHS, or to fund cut front line services for social care?

Being out will also enable the Tories to do what they like, whilst in government, to workers rights, holiday pay, sick pay etc, so thats a worry also.

Then we have the trade issue, being out will certainly hit trade and in turn hit the economy.

I've no idea really which way I'll vote

[Biddy]

See, I don't have the concerns over what the Tories "could do". Most of what you list would also affect the middle earners which is where they gained ground at the last election. Anything that upsets the status quo there will see Labour back in power soon enough and then we would be able to see if they would reverse all the Tory policies. That's the beauty of our democracy.

That and it always takes a good couple of years to implement new policy so at least we wouldn't have to live with it for a full parliament term.

[yoda]

The £4300 figure is nonsense, someone earning £11000 a year is not going to end up earning £6700 a year.

Fear tactics ? maybe.

I think it is more likely the in side have shot their bolt and peaked too early,

partly by design I would also say.

The out side have weeks to dissect that 200 page dossier.

[Al]

Al I'm not trying to be rude or awkward here but I feel you need to do some reading. The House of Commons is parliament not government. The House of Lords is unelected and its prime function is to act as a check on the Commons.

I think you're confusing different bodies here. It seems you're arguing what is and isn't government to suit your own view.

The leaflet boils down to the government, led by Cameron, believing the UK should vote to stay in. All the political parties are allowing their members, MPs, etc. a free vote on the referendum and freedom to campaign. The government is communicating it's view to the electorate as are the Brexit people.

It's democracy. No party whip on this one.

As far as I am concerned the leader of the majority party is invited to form a government which consists of the majority of parliament. Please don't try to tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

[only2garners]

The problem the leave campaign have is that as far as I can see every respected national and international economic body agrees that a UK out of the EU will be worse off. The actual numbers vary and it's clearly extremely difficult to put a figure on it, but I'm absolutely convinced it will be worse off.

The £4,300 number is a bit silly as it's just an attempt to quantify what it would mean to the average person. So of course someone on £11K isn't going to lose £4,300. In fact there will be plenty on £11K who might not lose anything but the guy whose job disappears to Poland as his company needs to stay in the EU market will lose a lot more than £11K.

Now there are plenty of people on the leave side who recognise that leaving will cost the country money but believe that it will be still be worth it to get back our "freedom" - that seems to be a much more honest position to take. I think it is wholly misguided, but nonetheless it's an honourable one. It's the ones that are trying to argue that there will not be an economic cost to leaving that are dishonest, in my opinion.

For me I cannot see any way that a UK outside the EU can possibly hope to gain the same access to EU markets without doing a "Norway" i.e. committing to paying their share, accepting the EU's trading terms and having no say in those terms.

[yoda]

The problem the leave campaign have is that as far as I can see every respected national and international economic body agrees that a UK out of the EU will be worse off. The actual numbers vary and it's clearly extremely difficult to put a figure on it, but I'm absolutely convinced it will be worse off.

The £4,300 number is a bit silly as it's just an attempt to quantify what it would mean to the average person. So of course someone on £11K isn't going to lose £4,300. In fact there will be plenty on £11K who might not lose anything but the guy whose job disappears to Poland as his company needs to stay in the EU market will lose a lot more than £11K.

Now there are plenty of people on the leave side who recognise that leaving will cost the country money but believe that it will be still be worth it to get back our "freedom" - that seems to be a much more honest position to take. I think it is wholly misguided, but nonetheless it's an honourable one. It's the ones that are trying to argue that there will not be an economic cost to leaving that are dishonest, in my opinion.

For me I cannot see any way that a UK outside the EU can possibly hope to gain the same access to EU markets without doing a "Norway" i.e. committing to paying their share, accepting the EU's trading terms and having no say in those terms.

They are all part of the Bilderbergs highly secretive clique who want global domination.

The growing economies of the world are not part of the EU, Brazil, China, India. India especially is also part of the commonwealth which we have obvious ties with and no language barrier.

The commonwealth consists of countries that have a population of well over 1 billion people

I would say it is perfectly possible the economy could grow outside the EU

[ABBEY]

The question is... When do I buy my holiday euro card ? Before or after the vote?

[yoda]

The question is... When do I buy my holiday euro card ? Before or after the vote?

Where you off too ?

[Paul]

As far as I am concerned the leader of the majority party is invited to form a government which consists of the majority of parliament. Please don't try to tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/parliament-government/

People often confuse Parliament with government. They work closely together as both play a part in forming the laws of the United Kingdom but they are separate institutions, with separate functions.

Government

The government runs the country. It has responsibility for developing and implementing policy and for drafting laws. It is also known as the 'Executive'.

Parliament

Parliament is the highest legislative authority in the UK. It has responsibility for checking the work of government and examining, debating and approving new laws. It is also known as the 'Legislature'.

[yoda]

http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/parliament-government/

People often confuse Parliament with government. They work closely together as both play a part in forming the laws of the United Kingdom but they are separate institutions, with separate functions.

Government

The government runs the country. It has responsibility for developing and implementing policy and for drafting laws. It is also known as the 'Executive'.

Parliament

Parliament is the highest legislative authority in the UK. It has responsibility for checking the work of government and examining, debating and approving new laws. It is also known as the 'Legislature'.

So parliament is the daddy then, similar to the USA, Obama has an idea then the senate vote it down

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

The leave campaign has the same problems that the Scottish Independence campaign had, they have a government propaganda machine to contend with. This is a Tory government that extended its lead in the last election, they know what they're doing.

They'll keep chipping away with the current scare tactics and even if they erase only 10-20% of the leave vote, it'll be enough. I'm starting to see why the SNP backlash at the last election was so successful, resentment in Scotland about a referendum result being essentially decided by a government and I'm starting to think that's what's going to happen here.

Its a clever tactic and one that may be used more often in the future. Promise a referendum to secure votes in a general election, intervene to essentially decide the referendum result, win the argument long-term in your favour. Doesn't help that the media appear to be backing them either. Ah well, still gonna vote leave.

[ABBEY]

Where you off too ?

zante again..love it

[yoda]

zante again..love it

Going to Greece was never a problem before joining the EU.

The legendary Magic bus

[Paul]

So parliament is the daddy then, similar to the USA, Obama has an idea then the senate vote it down

Yes in that if parliament votes down the government on a matter of confidence a general election has to be called if there is no new government formed.

[yoda]

Yes in that if parliament votes down the government on a matter of confidence a general election has to be called if there is no new government formed.

This government has been defeated several times in the house but is still in power.

That's democracy, unlike the EU

[Paul]

As for the Treasury's figures I think we have to agree with John Redwood and many others that Treasury forecasts seem to at best inaccurate!!

I do though agree in principle that leaving the EU will have a significant and far reaching negative effect on the country.

Yoda as an aside Brazil's economy is in trouble.