[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[Gav]

Yes they do assuming you mean on leader selection - providing you feel Conservative party members are plebs. Albeit they only get a choice of two.

I read the Conservative party are stopping new membership signs to prevent anti-Boris people signing up.

I was referring to the closing of the membership and the rigged 2 candidates only.

[Mattyblue]

You know what den, the reason people voted to leave the EU is probably because these voters have been ignored by politicians, not listened to for years and this is the result.

We now have a Labour Party once again doing exactly the same thing, not listening to the electorate, trying to make them insignificant by over throwing the man they voted in.

They'll never learn, you'll never learn either by the sounds of things.

What electorate? The 0.001% of the country that are in the Labour Party?

Depends on what you think a major political party is for?

To elect a leader in the image of the party membership? Electable or not. Great to see 'one of your own' in charge, but for what end?

Or to pick a leader that can win General Elections- therefore able to put into practice the aims and beliefs of that party.

[K-Hod]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, this desire to silence remain voters annoyed at the result seems to be the exact opposite of democracy and freedom of speech.....

[Mike Graham]

He did take on all comers less than 12 moths ago, the party members voted, he won by a massive majority, that seems to count for nothing.

I'm happy for another leadership vote gumboots, he'll probably romp it again, but how long before elected officials accept its the will of the party and stop rallying against him and get behind him?

Whilst everyone want Corbyn out, the next leader will probably be a ring wing blairite, so it takes the party even further away from the electorate, its short sighted and still makes the Labour party un-electable.

It is of course down to Labour members to choose their Leader. They will more than likely choose JC again and then face political meltdown and have another round of blaming negative outcomes on others.

I have met JC quite a few times. He is a nice personable chap but he is politically naive and believes he can lead based on protest. He also surrounds himself with some pretty obnoxious intolerant advisors......I was brought up to believe the L Party was a party of tolerance; from what I have seen it no longer is in many, but not all, areas.

[Al]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, this desire to silence remain voters annoyed at the result seems to be the exact opposite of democracy and freedom of speech.....

Don't see that at all. Surely it's the noisy remain voters who refuse to accept democracy.I could mention a few names on here but they know who they are.

[K-Hod]

Don't see that at all. Surely it's the noisy remain voters who refuse to accept democracy.I could mention a few names on here but they know who they are.

The problem is though Al, if people seek to shut down other people's views it's a slippery slope......

Admittedly I'm sick of the whole thing now and wish we could let sleeping dogs lie, but it's bound to be a talking point for some time whatever happens.

[Al]

The problem is though Al, if people seek to shut down other people's views it's a slippery slope......

Admittedly I'm sick of the whole thing now and wish we could let sleeping dogs lie, but it's bound to be a talking point for some time whatever happens.

Seems to me it's the frustrated remain voters who seek to shut down other peoples views. The out voters are relatively quiet in comparison. However the votes are cast and the bad losers will have to accept that eventually.

[Gav]

What electorate? The 0.001% of the country that are in the Labour Party?

Depends on what you think a major political party is for?

To elect a leader in the image of the party membership? Electable or not. Great to see 'one of your own' in charge, but for what end?

Or to pick a leader that can win General Elections- therefore able to put into practice the aims and beliefs of that party.

You can't keep changing the rules because it doesn't suit the argument.

That's how Labour leaders are elected, simple as that and all the huff n puff isn't going to change in Matty.

[only2garners]

Seems to me it's the frustrated remain voters who seek to shut down other peoples views. The out voters are relatively quiet in comparison. However the votes are cast and the bad losers will have to accept that eventually.

The thing I have a particular problem with Al, is that the Leave campaign was based on a number of outright lies. I have here a Leave leaflet that we got the day before the vote, that has three straight lies in it. Farage even had the gall to admit that the £350m was wrong within a couple of hours of the result.

I have some difficulty accepting that these lies did not affect the way people voted. In fact I know of a few members of my family who voted leave based on one of them.

[K-Hod]

Seems to me it's the frustrated remain voters who seek to shut down other peoples views. The out voters are relatively quiet in comparison. However the votes are cast and the bad losers will have to accept that eventually.

The phrases I keep hearing:

'You lost, get over it'

'What a set of bad losers'

Whilst there may be truth in those statements, it doesn't mean people aren't allowed to air their grievances if they feel people have, as O2G says, voted based on a couple of lies.

[Mattyblue]

You can't keep changing the rules because it doesn't suit the argument.

That's how Labour leaders are elected, simple as that and all the huff n puff isn't going to change in Matty.

I've no problem with how Labour decide to choose the leaders, good for them.

However, the general public aren't interested in Labour Party democracy, they are interested in the main opposition party providing a credible Leader of the Opposition, someone who gives them an alternative if they want to throw the current lot out at election time.

[ABBEY]

You can't keep changing the rules because it doesn't suit the argument.

That's how Labour leaders are elected, simple as that and all the huff n puff isn't going to change in Matty.

Would you have been willing to let steve K**n see his term out ?

[Gav]

It is of course down to Labour members to choose their Leader. They will more than likely choose JC again and then face political meltdown and have another round of blaming negative outcomes on others.

I have met JC quite a few times. He is a nice personable chap but he is politically naive and believes he can lead based on protest. He also surrounds himself with some pretty obnoxious intolerant advisors......I was brought up to believe the L Party was a party of tolerance; from what I have seen it no longer is in many, but not all, areas.

I'm not saying JC is the right leader for the party, but I fervently believe in democracy Mike.

More the fool me...

I've no problem with how Labour decide to choose the leaders, good for them.

However, the general public aren't interested in Labour Party democracy, they are interested in the main opposition party providing a credible Leader of the Opposition, someone who gives them an alternative if they want to throw the current lot out at election time.

Join the party and vote for the leader then would be my advice.

Would you have been willing to let steve K**n see his term out ?

Don't get me started on that ****.

[Biddy]

I'm not saying JC is the right leader for the party, but I fervently believe in democracy Mike.

More the fool me...

Join the party and vote for the leader then would be my advice.

Don't get me started on that ****.

But democracy is at the heart of what is happening. It is that right to challenge when you believe things are not going right. To be able and have the power to change it for the better.

Democracy isn't just blindly following for better or worse one decision that was made a year ago.

I really don't understand your stance on this.

Is it democracy for him to basically dig in and stay? How would the Labour party move on? Just wait until he finally retires?

[Husky]

I was just thinking (assuming the powers that be don't renegade on democracy) now that the 'UK has it's independence' there is little need for a UK Independence party isn't there?

I can imagine their vote will do down down down.

[RibbleValleyRover]

I was just thinking (assuming the powers that be don't renegade on democracy) now that the 'UK has it's independence' there is little need for a UK Independence party isn't there?

I can imagine their vote will do down down down.

UKIP think they can continue to damage Labour especially in the north at the next GE. I think they probably will lose some support as a lot of UKIP supporters are ex-tories and now they got their wish they might want to return to the fold so to speak.

Stephen Crabb is running for Tory leader, interesting background and could be a dark horse in the leadership race.

[Gav]

But democracy is at the heart of what is happening. It is that right to challenge when you believe things are not going right. To be able and have the power to change it for the better.

Democracy isn't just blindly following for better or worse one decision that was made a year ago.

I really don't understand your stance on this.

Is it democracy for him to basically dig in and stay? How would the Labour party move on? Just wait until he finally retires?

Welcome to the debate, I was wondering where you'd been Biddy

If you don't understand now, with respect you probably never will.

How can democracy be seen to have been served when 450,000 voters are just ignored because 48 MP's don't think the leader is up to it.

The reason people voted to leave the EU is probably because these voters have been ignored by politicians, not listened to for years, We now have Labour Party MP's once again doing exactly the same thing!

Will they never learn?

[Jock]

Scottish MEP ar5e licking the EU. Dirty scrounging beggars. Hope the Barnett Formula gets pulled.

[K-Hod]

I was just thinking (assuming the powers that be don't renegade on democracy) now that the 'UK has it's independence' there is little need for a UK Independence party isn't there?

I can imagine their vote will do down down down.

Nope, I'd suggest not. It's just basically the Euro Sceptic wing of the Conservative Party anyhow. (Though many were thrown out for corruption way back when interestingly enough).

I see RVR has made the same point better than I did!

[RibbleValleyRover]

Welcome to the debate, I was wondering where you'd been Biddy

If you don't understand now, with respect you probably never will.

How can democracy be seen to have been served when 450,000 voters are just ignored because 48 MP's don't think the leader is up to it.

The reason people voted to leave the EU is probably because these voters have been ignored by politicians, not listened to for years, We now have Labour Party MP's once again doing exactly the same thing!

Will they never learn?

Because trying to win over 46 million people (last total electorate at GE 2015) is more important than 450,000. You need party supporters and activists but you have to find a way to keep them onside and motivated whilst also appealing to the vast majority that have no party affiliation. Seems to me that Corbyn's Labour appeals to the former but not the latter group.

[Mattyblue]

It's just basically the Euro Sceptic wing of the Conservative Party anyhow. (Though many were thrown out for corruption way back when interestingly enough).

It was, as a protest to the Cameron led party, now if a Eurosceptic wins the Tory leadership...

I'd say it is Labour that now has most to fear from UKIP in its heartlands, especially if they keep electing North London metropolitans as leader.

[Biddy]

Welcome to the debate, I was wondering where you'd been Biddy

If you don't understand now, with respect you probably never will.

How can democracy be seen to have been served when 450,000 voters are just ignored because 48 MP's don't think the leader is up to it.

The reason people voted to leave the EU is probably because these voters have been ignored by politicians, not listened to for years, We now have Labour Party MP's once again doing exactly the same thing!

Will they never learn?

I replied to you earlier, just up there ^^^

You are correct, I don't understand your stance on this and with respect, you are right, I probably never will.

Where's Jim when you need him?

[jim mk2]

What electorate? The 0.001% of the country that are in the Labour Party?

Labour membership is around the 370,000 mark, or roughly 0.6 per cent of the 60m UK population. I ain't good at maths but that's a much bigger number than your figure.

Membership has nearly doubled since the May 2015 election and is not far off its 1997 peak of 405,000.

Tory party has roughly 140,000 members

[Steve Moss]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, this desire to silence remain voters annoyed at the result seems to be the exact opposite of democracy and freedom of speech.....

From what I've read on this board (and in the papers), it is the Remain supporters and various politicians who are lecturing the Leave voters, not the other way around.

There is a march to globalism. I understand the desire to expand markets, but people forget:

1. The world is a savage place. Peace is the exception, not the rule.

2. When you let the barbarians in the gates, it is far more likely that they'll sack the city than it is that they'll settle down and become devoted, patriotic and taxpaying citizens.

The thing I have a particular problem with Al, is that the Leave campaign was based on a number of outright lies. I have here a Leave leaflet that we got the day before the vote, that has three straight lies in it. Farage even had the gall to admit that the £350m was wrong within a couple of hours of the result.

I have some difficulty accepting that these lies did not affect the way people voted. In fact I know of a few members of my family who voted leave based on one of them.

The actual number is 120 million/week net paid out the the EU, not 350 million previously claimed. So you are correct about that. But 120 million/week is still a very high number and not something I think Remain should be broadcasting if it wants to wag it's finger at Leave.

[jim mk2]

Story in the press tomorrow that in the harsh light of day workers at Sunderland's Nissan plant are seriously worried about their jobs with rumours about cutbacks swirling around the production line. Sunderland exports Nissans all over Europe and the company bosses warned before the vote that a Brexit might force the company to reconsider its operations. Nissan has been in Sunderland fpor 30 years and employs 6,700 people at the plant. Sunderland voted overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit.

Sky reporting Corbyn has lost a vote of no confidence with 172 Labour Mps voting against him

Also, Mark Rutte, the Dutch premier, said today that “England has collapsed politically, monetarily, constitutionally and economically".