[Archived] Eu Referendum, In Or Out - Looks Like Blackburn Wants Out !

[dave birch]

Of course hes not and you know it. Personally i feel what was wrong was not setting a higher bar for leaving. 1 more vote, which could have been all it took, wasnt really suitable in this sort of vote and i said so beforehand. But its too late to change things now.

"boots, why not set the "bar" higher for remaining?

This was an example of true democracy (give or take lies on either side).

What it is showing that people cannot accept "their" side being on the wrong end.

[ABBEY]

Yes the remain side lied through their teeth too. Nobody comes out well from this campaign.

What is clear to me is that Jim, Paul and Phillip actively want the economy to go wrong so that they can say " I told you so". Well the stock exchange is on it's way back up today and the pound will follow in due course. Sorry guys it's all going to be all right for most of us if not for you personally.

Well my work shares are rising again and the apocalypse is not happening but this torrential rain is the exits fault because the car at side of me was black a hour ago and the rain has turned it white .

[Claytons Left Boot]

Yes the remain side lied through their teeth too. Nobody comes out well from this campaign.

What is clear to me is that Jim, Paul and Phillip actively want the economy to go wrong so that they can say " I told you so". Well the stock exchange is on it's way back up today and the pound will follow in due course. Sorry guys it's all going to be all right for most of us if not for you personally.

Quite correct, Al, it's like being on the football section of the site after Allardyce went, with all the 'I Told You Sos' never letting it drop.

It's less than a week since the referendum. It's extremely early days and there's bound to be uncertainty in the markets. Uncertainty makes the markets unsteady.

I took early retirement last year. I didn't buy an annuity, rather I put my two previous pension pots with an investment company and simply draw an income from my portfolio made up of stocks, shares, bonds and so on. Interestingly the value of that portfolio went up by £800 by the close of play on day one. That amongst all the angst and scaremongering in the media (and on here).

There will be ups and downs, problems and worry. But, we live in Great Britain. The people of these islands put the Great in Great Britain. We are still Great and we will continue to be Great. There is much to be optimistic about and we come through this stronger.

[gumboots]

Not sure about that gumboots, a vote is a vote. Would you have a re-run if it was 51% remain? Neverendum.

Im not asking for a rerun. I do think beforehand the bar for leaving should have been at least 55-45. That way there could have been no argument and both sides would have had to mobilise their support. As i said, its too late to do anything now. We have to live with the choice thats been made. Im gutted by it and scared of the consequences of it but im working on accepting it and havent joined the lets go for a rerun brigade.

[ABBEY]

55-45 ? So you want IT undemocratic?

[den]

"boots, why not set the "bar" higher for remaining?

This was an example of true democracy (give or take lies on either side).

What it is showing that people cannot accept "their" side being on the wrong end.

No it isn't Dave. The debate is headlining everywhere over here and we haven't even given notice that we're leaving yet. Much, much more to be discussed and rightly so as well.

There is another side to this you know. There is a viewpoint that since we voted to leave, the leave camp have disappeared because they don't have a clue what's going to happen with the economy, immigration, access to the single market or in fact, anything. Heseltine repeated on newsnight last night that the country is in the biggest crisis that he's ever known. He proposes that Boris is sent out to negotiate the exit with Brussels because "he got us into this mess". He then suggests that when he's done that, the deal on offer will be so much against the best interests of the country that MPs will vote it down. The option then will be either put the deal to the country to vote on, or call a general election. Not necessarily my view, but who's to say what will happen?

This is nowhere near finished.

[chor808]

Im not asking for a rerun. I do think beforehand the bar for leaving should have been at least 55-45. That way there could have been no argument and both sides would have had to mobilise their support. As i said, its too late to do anything now. We have to live with the choice thats been made. Im gutted by it and scared of the consequences of it but im working on accepting it and havent joined the lets go for a rerun brigade.

I disagree it had to be a fair 50%+, anyway being gutted is one thing being scared is another. Nothing has changed yet, as someone posted there is uncertanty and that is not good but no need to be scared.

Confidence is what we need now not fear.

[jim mk2]

Of course hes not and you know it. Personally i feel what was wrong was not setting a higher bar for leaving. 1 more vote, which could have been all it took, wasnt really suitable in this sort of vote and i said so beforehand. But its too late to change things now.

The bar should have been 60-40 either way. The vote was too important and the consequences too wide-ranging and long lasting for it to be carried on such a narrow majority.

Hesletine is right: this is a crisis of seizmic proportions - economic, political and constitutional, and it will likely drag on for a long time.

[dave birch]

Sorry Den, true democracy is asking the people what they think.

50% + 1 gives you the answer.

the only problem is acceptance from the 50% - 1.

[chor808]

No it isn't Dave. The debate is headlining everywhere over here and we haven't even given notice that we're leaving yet. Much, much more to be discussed and rightly so as well.

There is another side to this you know. There is a viewpoint that since we voted to leave, the leave camp have disappeared because they don't have a clue what's going to happen with the economy, immigration, access to the single market or in fact, anything. Heseltine repeated on newsnight last night that the country is in the biggest crisis that he's ever known. He proposes that Boris is sent out to negotiate the exit with Brussels because "he got us into this mess". He then suggests that when he's done that, the deal on offer will be so much against the best interests of the country that MPs will vote it down. The option then will be either put the deal to the country to vote on, or call a general election. Not necessarily my view, but who's to say what will happen?

This is nowhere near finished.

Heseltine has said this twice and both times the TV nearly got it. Throwing toys out of the pram or taking your ball home is a disgrace. They are paid to work for us the people (ok maybe not him anymore but I'm sure his pension is fine) walking away should not be an option. For whatever reason right or wrong we voted out and to say leave people have to sort this mess out is an absolute disgrace.

Honestly I think a lot of them are just ducking work, they have had it easy for years for example we let the EU make all trade deals, no work there! All of a sudden there is a big pile of work to do and the bogy man of the EU will have gone away. They will truely be accountable for their actions from now on.

Shame on those who walk away.

[jim mk2]

. The people of these islands put the Great in Great Britain. We are still Great and we will continue to be Great. There is much to be optimistic about and we come through this stronger.

Great Britain is a geographical term and is also incorrect in this context as it refers to England Scotland and Wales but not Northern ireland.

[Al]

Quite correct, Al, it's like being on the football section of the site after Allardyce went, with all the 'I Told You Sos' never letting it drop.

It's less than a week since the referendum. It's extremely early days and there's bound to be uncertainty in the markets. Uncertainty makes the markets unsteady.

I took early retirement last year. I didn't buy an annuity, rather I put my two previous pension pots with an investment company and simply draw an income from my portfolio made up of stocks, shares, bonds and so on. Interestingly the value of that portfolio went up by £800 by the close of play on day one. That amongst all the angst and scaremongering in the media (and on here).

There will be ups and downs, problems and worry. But, we live in Great Britain. The people of these islands put the Great in Great Britain. We are still Great and we will continue to be Great. There is much to be optimistic about and we come through this stronger.

Strangely enough my portfolio has gone up as well. It's certainly not all doom and gloom is it?

[yoda]

Of course hes not and you know it. Personally i feel what was wrong was not setting a higher bar for leaving. 1 more vote, which could have been all it took, wasnt really suitable in this sort of vote and i said so beforehand. But its too late to change things now.

The format was agreed before hand with the electoral commission taking input from everywhere.

[dave birch]

What's done is done.

Just get on with it and move forward.

[gumboots]

And with no criteria for negotiating leaving, nobody effectively in power for doing it, and nobody sure how we do it, how do you suggest we move on?

[Gav]

No, you were replying directly to me Gav. But hey ho...........

Tell you what, chalk one up at my expense if it gets you through the day

I'd be more worried about the fact you don't believe in the democratic process, and you're not alone worryingly.

The bar should have been 60-40 either way. The vote was too important and the consequences too wide-ranging and long lasting for it to be carried on such a narrow majority.

Hesletine is right: this is a crisis of seizmic proportions - economic, political and constitutional, and it will likely drag on for a long time.

Laughable, you'd have said the same if remain had won wouldn't you Jim

[Claytons Left Boot]

...it would have the small added benefit of seeing the xenophobic little Englanders go apoplectic when they realise that their vote for Brexit isn't going to make all the foreigners go away after all. [/font]

I don't think this is true, Jim. There will be some idiots that would wish this just like there have been a few idiots daubing slogans on Polish shops etc but the vast majority of people want a sensible approach to it. I for one still want to see foreigners in this country. I like Europeans and I like people from farther afield. I have lived in Switzerland and have owned a property in Spain. I have enjoyed integrating into these two countries and would expect Britains to be tolerant of the same thing happening in reverse, which they generally have.

The problem in the UK is that we are a small country. We are no USA, no Canada or no Australia. The current rate of immigration is around 300k per annum split 50/50 between those from the EU and those not. That's 1.2 million every four years. To put that into perspective, it's like having a new Birmingham and a new Southampton within that time scale. Or, let's put it another way, by the time my grandchildren are in their early 20s, a new London! There is no way we can absorb that rate of growth.

We need an effective and sensible approach like Australia. We need to target certain employment sectors that will be beneficial to us and to use a points system. This in addition to taking in a definitive number of genuine refugees who are not economic migrants.

[jim mk2]

Tell you what, chalk one up at my expense if it gets you through the day

I'd be more worried about the fact you don't believe in the democratic process, and you're not alone worryingly.

Laughable, you'd have said the same if remain had won wouldn't you Jim

I just did - the bar should have been 60-40 either way.

[gumboots]

I disagree it had to be a fair 50%+, anyway being gutted is one thing being scared is another. Nothing has changed yet, as someone posted there is uncertanty and that is not good but no need to be scared.

Confidence is what we need now not fear.

And what difference does my being scared or confident make? There is every need to be scared when friends are already reporting that they are beginning to feel uncomfortable when out shopping. Friends who were born here and in many cases friends whose parents or possibly even grandparents were born here. The leave vote hasnt caused xenophobia and certainly not all those who voted leave are xenophobes, but it has given, in their own minds, legitimacy to some of the country's low life and their intolerant hateful attitudes. Its a scary time for many people. And im scared too because i dont want to see friends hurt and upset by the mindless hatred of a small minority who now feel empowered in a way they werent before

[chor808]

And what difference does my being scared or confident make? There is every need to be scared when friends are already reporting that they are beginning to feel uncomfortable when out shopping. Friends who were born here and in many cases friends whose parents or possibly even grandparents were born here. The leave vote hasnt caused xenophobia and certainly not all those who voted leave are xenophobes, but it has given, in their own minds, legitimacy to some of the country's low life and their intolerant hateful attitudes. Its a scary time for many people. And im scared too because i dont want to see friends hurt and upset by the mindless hatred of a small minority who now feel empowered in a way they werent before

Sorry gumboots I read it wrong I thought you meant the economy not idiots running round with hatred in mind.

Again sorry. By the way I'm married to a refugee and have an imigrant son, I voted out.

By the way Junker under pressure:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/eus-juncker-under-pressure-to-resign-after-brexit-vote/

[only2garners]

Strangely enough my portfolio has gone up as well. It's certainly not all doom and gloom is it?

So has mine too Al. But that reflects what's in it. I have shares in 4 companies, 2 of them pharmaceuticals, 1 my former utility employer and 1 a finance demutualisation and some other investments. The pharmaceuticals have gone up considerably as they have precious little to do with the UK economy, the utility has gone up as it's a natural share to buy in unsettled times and the finance one has gone down.

In truth the FTSE 100 is not what you should be looking at right now if you want to understand what the market reaction is, as it's dominated by international companies. The banks and finance companies have taken a big hit along with airlines, but the multinationals have gone up, so the net result is not much change. The FTSE 250 has many more companies dependent on the UK economy and that's a better index to see what's happening re Brexit. It has had an upturn this week but is still about 1,500 points down on last week.

[Gav]

I just did - the bar should have been 60-40 either way.

Ok Jim....

Should Corbyn go?

[jim mk2]

I don't think this is true, Jim. There will be some idiots that would wish this just like there have been a few idiots daubing slogans on Polish shops etc but the vast majority of people want a sensible approach to it. I for one still want to see foreigners in this country. I like Europeans and I like people from farther afield. I have lived in Switzerland and have owned a property in Spain. I have enjoyed integrating into these two countries and would expect Britains to be tolerant of the same thing happening in reverse, which they generally have.

The problem in the UK is that we are a small country. We are no USA, no Canada or no Australia. The current rate of immigration is around 300k per annum split 50/50 between those from the EU and those not. That's 1.2 million every four years. To put that into perspective, it's like having a new Birmingham and a new Southampton within that time scale. Or, let's put it another way, by the time my grandchildren are in their early 20s, a new London! There is no way we can absorb that rate of growth.

We need an effective and sensible approach like Australia. We need to target certain employment sectors that will be beneficial to us and to use a points system. This in addition to taking in a definitive number of genuine refugees who are not economic migrants.

I think you're underestimating the number of people who dislike foreigners per se and resent any of them being in this country. Alf Garnett was a carictature of the type but his spirit lives on in many older people.

With regards to immigrants I know 2 Polish builders who have been here over 10 years. They came here to work and their friends are all here to work. Their view is that immigration is self-levelling and that when the economy is going through a downturn (like 2007-9) immigration falls to lower levels. Many people they know returned home in the last recession.

They also said something interesting: there's lots of people in Poland and presumably elsewhere in eastern Europe who as a result of the June 23 vote are advancing their plans to come here because they see a 2-year window before the EU door shuts (in theory but unlikely in practice).

So I would not be be surprised at all that as along as the economy doesn't suffer too badly going forward to see immigration numbers rise even higher.

[Al]

The bar should have been 60-40 either way. The vote was too important and the consequences too wide-ranging and long lasting for it to be carried on such a narrow majority.

Hesletine is right: this is a crisis of seizmic proportions - economic, political and constitutional, and it will likely drag on for a long time.

Yet more bad loser sour grapes. If it had been 51% remain there wouldn't have been a squeak from you. You really are unbelievable as well as undemocratic.

[jim mk2]

Ok Jim....

Should Corbyn go?

Yes.

I understand your views about party democracy but you have to be pragmatic - the party is in danger of imploding and could well disappear as a political force.