[Archived] Cameron Gone, Osborne To Follow?

[JBiz]

The private sector should be forced to improve their pension schemes, not reduce ALL public ones.

I'm under no illusion SKH- I am aware of some ridiculous pensions given in my profession (public, teaching) but the system this country runs takes money from the average working person and forces them to work longer at the benefit of the minority.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

The private sector should be forced to improve their pension schemes, not reduce ALL public ones.

I'm under no illusion SKH- I am aware of some ridiculous pensions given in my profession (public, teaching) but the system this country runs takes money from the average working person and forces them to work longer at the benefit of the minority.

Except the private sector are competing with companies around the world who pay their workers peanuts, and have to make money. They don't have the luxury of kicking off with George Osbourne until he coughs up some cash.

It's be competitive or be the likes of Tata/BHS. My company spends a quarter of its revenue on staff wages, extremely generous and verging on risky, and it still can't afford to contribute anything to pensions. It's not always the big man screwing everyone, it's global economics. A reality many in the public sector (particularly those who've never worked anywhere else) seem oblivious to, particularly when expecting/demanding public support for the latest industrial action.

Support that for a number of years now has been hard to come by, particularly at election time. But hey, you can't beat down on millions of the electorate (although the Remainers have given it a good try) so how about beating down on the people they elect instead. They're vulnerable. So let's call May a c***, Gove a w*****, Osbourne a t***. Let's bang on about Tory scum and be deeply unpleasant and aggressive whenever possible.

That's modern politics eh, at least from the Left side it is. I'm just sick of people pretending the motivation is anything more noble than grabbing as big a piece of the pie as possible for themselves. The economy didn't matter a jot when Osbourne was trying to fix it through austerity, then to the very same people it's suddenly the most important thing in the world to resist Brexit.

[jim mk2]

Sounds like your company shouldn't be in business because it can't look after its employees properly.

Stop moaning and get a job in the public sector.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Sounds like your company shouldn't be in business because it can't look after its employees properly.

Stop moaning and get a job in the public sector.

Thanks for that oh wise and all-seeing business genius. Tell me Jim, how did the multiple businesses you own/owned stave off competition from China/India. Your staff costs were obviously hundreds of times as high as you treated all your employees "properly", with final salary pensions, months off every few years with stress etc.

Did you charge hundreds of times more for your product? But then how were you able to sell it I wonder? Ah yes of course, because all this went on in your Communist dreamland where all your nonsense somehow magically works.

Stop moaning? STOP MOANING??? Hahaha Jesus Christ. Do you want me to list the strikes, protests, marches etc up and down the country in the last few years by your side of the argument or was that just one of your funnier jokes? Maybe I will get a job in the public sector Jim if Labour get back in and pump it back up to its previously inflated size, but the trouble is someone will have to pay my wage, I wonder where the money will come from? Oh yeah that sector I just abandoned.

[Mike E]

Sounds like your company shouldn't be in business because it can't look after its employees properly.

Stop moaning and get a job in the public sector.

Not like you to miss the point entirely jim...

[JBiz]

Except the private sector are competing with companies around the world who pay their workers peanuts, and have to make money. They don't have the luxury of kicking off with George Osbourne until he coughs up some cash.

Competing with companies around the world but we close ourselves off to what percentage of the world market? The same world market we could already trade with pre any brexit?

Did we protect our private and public primary industries? The same businesses that built the country? Paying bigger wages than other countries can bring the best possible employees for specialised public and private positions from around the world...

All this is up the air and the uncertainty is just going to have an impact.

It's be competitive or be the likes of Tata/BHS. My company spends a quarter of its revenue on staff wages, extremely generous and verging on risky, and it still can't afford to contribute anything to pensions. It's not always the big man screwing everyone, it's global economics. A reality many in the public sector (particularly those who've never worked anywhere else) seem oblivious to, particularly when expecting/demanding public support for the latest industrial action.

The personal remark isn't necessary. It isn't possible for everyone to have worked everywhere, for someone working in a factory or even running their own business may have never been a doctor, teacher, emergency services, soldier etc. Does that make them unaware of the difference?

I need level 7 qualifications, the equivalent of 5 years in FE/HE/Post Grad education and 150 minimum hours voluntary to have the job I choose. I could earn the same as a top level admin position without the potential future improvements but also without any planning, assessment, safeguarding responsibilities, changes of hours, same holidays etc - we should be investing in these professions, especially education, not means testing and cutting to death. Audit, make judgements, improve the students, thus calibre of candidates for jobs from the UK... That could even lower immigration...

BHS is a strange example- how much did one man take from that firm at the cost of its employees? Plus.... Recession? Interest rates? Not greedy employees fat pensions. How many people made those decision pre 2008? How many of those within the company failed to move the business on in a changing climate? Do the shop workers who paid thousands in pay for those decisions?

Support that for a number of years now has been hard to come by, particularly at election time. But hey, you can't beat down on millions of the electorate (although the Remainers have given it a good try) so how about beating down on the people they elect instead. They're vulnerable. So let's call May a c***, Gove a w*****, Osbourne a t***. Let's bang on about Tory scum and be deeply unpleasant and aggressive whenever possible.

I'm allowed my opinions, and they don't need to be personal or abusuve towards politicians. Cameron used farage and the referendum to win an election with no plan, Ask any policeman about Theresa May, as (in a world currently full of hatred and fear) we possible will have less than 100,000 by 2020, same number as 40 years ago? Gove and the privatising of schools is an absolute catastrophe waiting to happen. How can educational be perceived to be profit run? Too many of this government and the past (New Labour included) have blustered. Corbyn speaks a lot of sense but will never to appeal to central or right wing, which is a shame as I think he'd make life better for the average person (something parliament seems to fear, especially the red tories!) but since he's not the orator of Blair proportions, he is not "electable".

That's modern politics eh, at least from the Left side it is. I'm just sick of people pretending the motivation is anything more noble than grabbing as big a piece of the pie as possible for themselves. The economy didn't matter a jot when Osbourne was trying to fix it through austerity, then to the very same people it's suddenly the most important thing in the world to resist Brexit.

Trying to fix it for who is the question that remains? Austerity hasn't worked in the slightest - least not where I work and live. 2016 and I see poverty everyday. Put money in the 99% of the populations pocket and it comes back into the economy, but we keep bankers bonuses, ridiculous expenses, offshore accounts, tax dodges and basic fraud available for the 1% instead.

Motivation for you might be simply seeing more money in your pocket but don't paint everyone with the same brush. Why do people pick public service careers in any case? Easy living? 6 week holidays? Big cash rewards?

[Al]

The private sector should be forced to improve their pension schemes, not reduce ALL public ones.

I'm under no illusion SKH- I am aware of some ridiculous pensions given in my profession (public, teaching) but the system this country runs takes money from the average working person and forces them to work longer at the benefit of the minority.

Not often I agree with you but you are absolutely right on this. Pensions are vitally important and should constitute a living wage in all cases when people work.

[dave birch]

Pension funds should not be in the hands of employers.

They should be in the name of the employee, and with restricted access.

We are mandated to pay our employees at the rate of 9.5% of their earnings (per week/fortnight etc). Depending on the size of your payroll, it has to be paid monthly /quarterly.

Despite the close control, there are some that still cheat their employees.

[Al]

Pension funds should not be in the hands of employers.

They should be in the name of the employee, and with restricted access.

We are mandated to pay our employees at the rate of 9.5% of their earnings (per week/fortnight etc). Depending on the size of your payroll, it has to be paid monthly /quarterly.

Despite the close control, there are some that still cheat their employees.

That should be common Dave and the employee should match it by law, with tax relief of course.

[Baz]

Andrea Leadsom believes there should be no regulations whatsoever for small businesses - minimum wage, pension rights, maternity pay, no unfair dismissal rights etc.

[Biddy]

Andrea Leadsom believes there should be no regulations whatsoever for small businesses - minimum wage, pension rights, maternity pay, no unfair dismissal rights etc.

Can you post the source so I can have a read?

[Baz]

Can you post the source so I can have a read?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/andrea-leadsom_uk_577b6c78e4b0f7b55795bc7b

Bit of a left wing publication, but here you are.

[Biddy]

Cheers, good read and if you follow the link in the article it does go to the minutes from the house of commons where she does indeed say it. She does qualify it as being for companies with less than 3 people so I can see where she was coming from but it's not great politics.

[JBiz]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/andrea-leadsom_uk_577b6c78e4b0f7b55795bc7b

Bit of a left wing publication, but here you are.

One of the biggest fears I had with brexit is giving the sole responsibility for setting employemeng rights to our government.

[jim mk2]

Same here - the likes of Tory donors like Peter Hargreaves have been banging on for years about "labour reform". The EU provided some protection for workers from some of the more rabid right wingers but it's open season now - children will be sweeping chimneys again soon enough.

[K-Hod]

Ken Clarke didn't realise he had his microphone on-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5DgIa0VXkk&sns=em

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

It's a balancing act surely. I was a bit flippant earlier in my reply to Jim (I blame the stupid sign), in that I get the society he wants. Employee benefits, union protection and job security are elevated to the traditional public sector level. Not eroded from the public sector to match the traditional private sector level, and while they're at it erode the private sector still further.

But on the other hand there has to be an environment which encourages people to start businesses and allows them to thrive. That's what creates wealth at the end of the day, stifle that and you stifle tax revenue and everyone suffers anyway. Jim's line tends to be if you can't afford full employee benefits, paying the living wage etc then your business is unviable and shouldn't exist anyway.

Well trouble with that is on those terms you wouldn't have many businesses at all, extremely high unemployment and more underfunded services than we have now. I suspect like most arguments on here, this one is inevitably heading towards the tax the rich/big companies more magic bullet solution. If only that was a magic bullet solution and not riddled with its own risks of worsening the monetary situation.

[jim mk2]

It's a balancing act surely. I was a bit flippant earlier in my reply to Jim (I blame the stupid sign), in that I get the society he wants. Employee benefits, union protection and job security are elevated to the traditional public sector level. Not eroded from the public sector to match the traditional private sector level, and while they're at it erode the private sector still further.

But on the other hand there has to be an environment which encourages people to start businesses and allows them to thrive. That's what creates wealth at the end of the day, stifle that and you stifle tax revenue and everyone suffers anyway. Jim's line tends to be if you can't afford full employee benefits, paying the living wage etc then your business is unviable and shouldn't exist anyway.

Well trouble with that is on those terms you wouldn't have many businesses at all, extremely high unemployment and more underfunded services than we have now. I suspect like most arguments on here, this one is inevitably heading towards the tax the rich/big companies more magic bullet solution. If only that was a magic bullet solution and not riddled with its own risks of worsening the monetary situation.

There are so many way big businesses can avoid tax, never mind evade tax. Osborne is considering reducing corporate tax to 15 per cent yet the sector is already under-taxed. You only have to look at the antics of the likes of Google and Facebook (pursued at this moment by Brussels by the way for tax evasion) and the way they shift money around the world to see how companies are not paying their way. And don't get me started on rich individuals with all their offshore trusts and the like. Well done for replying without your customary abuse by the way.

[Al]

Same here - the likes of Tory donors like Peter Hargreaves have been banging on for years about "labour reform". The EU provided some protection for workers from some of the more rabid right wingers but it's open season now - children will be sweeping chimneys again soon enough.

And UK employment law will cease to exist will it Jim? You really are laughable at times.

[K-Hod]

Jim- re the abuse comment in the last line of your post, really??

[yoda]

Same here - the likes of Tory donors like Peter Hargreaves have been banging on for years about "labour reform". The EU provided some protection for workers from some of the more rabid right wingers but it's open season now - children will be sweeping chimneys again soon enough.

The "labour reform" that is needed is for the Labour party to get its act together.

I thought your mate Thatcher had finished the coal industry Jim.

[oldjamfan1]

Ken Clarke didn't realise he had his microphone on-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5DgIa0VXkk&sns=em

Now that made me laugh!!!

[Baz]

And UK employment law will cease to exist will it Jim? You really are laughable at times.

A lot of it is up in the air Al, a lot of workers benefits / employment law is about to be redrawn as we go through Brexit, that's why in my opinion, the Brexit team needs to have representation from all sides of the House of Commons. The Tories in my opinion don't have the mandate to pick and choose which ones they want to take, amend, dismiss from the EU.

[Mike E]

Jim, I agree that a reduction in corporation tax (on the face of it) is pretty crap. The only way it can be effective as a means of encouraging companies to pay tax is to close the other loopholes they exploit.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36727853

Worth a read for those of the "pay for everything by upping corporation tax"/"Tory scum only look after their own" persuasion.

France's SOCIALIST government try to outdo Osbourne in cutting Corporation tax to try and steal the financial hub from London.

This says 3 things:

1. Upping taxes to the rich/big business doesn't always benefit society. It's complex, and has certainly never been a fix-all solution. As some of us have been saying until we're blue in the face.

2. Europe isn't a paradise of socialist principles and looking after the little man, the knight in shining armour who could have saved us from the dastardly Tories. Oh no, at the moment France's SOCIALIST party are trying to out-Tory the Tories and Germany are begging the rest of Europe not to out-Tory France!

3. If you subscribe to the fairyland teachings of Jim, be prepared for this kind of huge surprise whenever reality is studied too closely.