[Archived] Has Your Opinion Changed On Coyle?

[blueboy3333]

Three huge mistakes.

1) you assume they are sane

2) try looking this through the eyes of a betting syndicate just as an odd ball it would never happen, could it? exercise

3) Even if you have no mind it doesn't mean that you don't do what the last person you spoke to told you to...

So you're suggesting someone, somewhere made a lot of money on Rovers appointing a better manager than Bowyer!!?

It was you who informed this forum that Lambert was on a big bonus if he got promotion. That explains why Bowyer was sacked. Nothing else to it. They wanted promotion with a quick-fix change of manager who'd done it before, to be helped by two ex-Rovers who were well respected. It didn't work out because the Championship is a horribly tough league, Lambert wasn't good enough and we didn't really have the squad capable of a sustained push. He even had to sell Rhodes to finance a load of loan deals and a couple of cheap buys. Then he left. Now we've got Coyle, another who once got promotion on the cheap.

Just because the owners keep getting it wrong doesn't mean everything they do is criminal. It's those kinds of wild and wacky conspiracy theories that allow people on places like RoversTalk to dismiss all anti-Venky's rhetoric as the work of a few nut jobs, and will also allow others to do it, making being against protests very easy for them.

That said, if you've got evidence of betting syndicates involving Rovers then get it out there.

[bob fleming]

Does OC actually stands for "Oh Crap"?

[K-Hod]

He's in the LT today saying 'we need wins'. Well, knock me down with a feather, really Owen? You perceptive man!

[chor808]

I'm not qouting Coyle as people may not want to read it but deperate stuff.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/14746611._We_must_start_getting_wins____Blackburn_Rovers_boss_on_his_side_s_crunch_clash_with_Rotherham_United/?ref=mac

[JHRover]

Like everything it just doesn't make sense.

If they wanted promotion then they shouldn't have started the season with Bowyer. By the time they sacked him and brought Lambert in it was too late. No manager in the world would have got this squad to the play-offs from the position we were in without massive money to spend. If they wanted promotion they should have exited the embargo in the summer and appointed Lambert then, giving him a full season at it.

If they got rid of Bowyer because they were 'scared' of relegation taking place then what are they doing now? Are they no longer 'scared' of going down? Because at this rate it is going to happen sooner rather than later and we look poorer than we have been at any stage since they took over.

The reason people suspect dodgy goings on is because even misguided/poorly advised or clueless people would have some sort of strategy and relay that strategy to the club and supporters. The fact they allow the club to burn, supporters to revolt and managers to quit without ever speaking or engaging leads to only one conclusion. This isn't naivety or a continual succession of mistakes, but more likely a deliberate strategy to dismantle the club.

[DE.]

I'm not qouting Coyle as people may not want to read it but deperate stuff.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/14746611._We_must_start_getting_wins____Blackburn_Rovers_boss_on_his_side_s_crunch_clash_with_Rotherham_United/?ref=mac

Ah, this is why he was the "outstanding candidate". With quotes such as "you want to win the game" and "we've got what we've got and the only people who can change that is us", it's obvious why he leapfrogged everybody on the celebrated shortlist right into the Ewood hotseat.

[Blue blood]

Well, that's awfully convenient.

I guess they sacked Appleton for the same reason, because he was definitely taking us down.

Yes, Rhodes. That's another good point. Let's break the bank on a striker whose goals arguably kept us in this division and resist numerous approaches for him, but still conspire to sink the club into the lower leagues. How does that work?

That's a nice sarcastic response.

Let's go through this bit by bit. Firstly - what decisions have they made for the betterment of the club - from Kean, to the 5 managers season, to the constant lowering of the budget, to running - or not running - things from India, where has anything been for the betterment of the club? If these aren't all acts designed to bury a club then I don't what is.

Secondly Appleton - well results weren't too important that season as we had 5 managers, apparently Singh also picking the team at times. Sackings didn't seem to happen for the betterment of the club that season but more a response to the power plays. There's also the naivety that if relegation is on the cards then someone is sacked - didn't work with Kean did it?

Anyhow I will grant you Lambert probably wasn't hired just to look legit - although from Chesterton to Shaw, this has been a strategy employed in the past. But I will say that it didn't massively seem to be for the betterment of the club - after all if it was then surely they'd have spoken to him. Surely they'd have given him a decent budget. The idea he was there for our betterment is undone by the shoddy way he was treated and lack of support - the two contradict each other.

Also you need to factor in timing. It's been a slow process, but sometimes asset stripping is. Make sure all the parachute payments are got, that there's a steady turnover of players who money can be made on - both of which are true, but isn't it interesting that as the parachute payments have run out the squad has been dangerously weakened going into both the last 2 seasons? When Rhodes was sold also ties in with this happening after many of the other assets have been sold. Plus we're assuming a degree of normalcy into the hiring and selling of Rhodes - wasn't he a panic buy pushed through by Singh, was there an element of stubborn pride in not selling earlier? It's not easy to say it's as easy as they brought him as they want to succeed.

Huge point made too about plans having changed. Because whilst we could debate the first three seasons of terror, the last two undoubtedly have seen them utterly strip the assets out of the squad - to the point of leaving the squad thin and not replaced. Perhaps they haven't always wanted to down the club but they sure as heck do now. Look at how thin the squad was and is, look at how small the investment is, look at how few assets there are now left in the team. The evidence from the last 2 years clearly points to people wanting to see the club asset stripped and sunk.

I guess this is all a long winded way of saying that their initial motives may be debatable, but that from the last 2 years it has been clear to squeeze everything they can from the club to the point of killing it. It nearly happened last season, and it very likely will this. Personally given the shambolic way they've handled the club from day 1 and the fact mistakes have not been learned from makes me think that there must have been a plan of ill intent from the very start.

[chor808]

Ah, this is why he was the "outstanding candidate". With quotes such as "you want to win the game" and "we've got what we've got and the only people who can change that is us", it's obvious why he leapfrogged everybody on the celebrated shortlist right into the Ewood hotseat.

arghhhhh you quoted him

[DE.]

arghhhhh you quoted him

Only the less offensive parts. There are some proper Kean-esque quotes in that article. One in particular is almost identical to something Kean said after our appalling start to the 11/12 season.

[47er]

We can come up with various theories but the simplest is often the best. I think they are trying to get as much money back as they can before closing us down If they can't sell for some inflated price.

That's why, and I said it months ago, Rovers FC of Blackburn might be our only alternative.

[Jimmy612]

I'm not qouting Coyle as people may not want to read it but deperate stuff.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/14746611._We_must_start_getting_wins____Blackburn_Rovers_boss_on_his_side_s_crunch_clash_with_Rotherham_United/?ref=mac

I really don't like Coyle and I think he's a bloody poor manager - but I haven't actually read anything too bad in that.

He's admitted the first three games were dreadful, something Kean never did. And he's correct that performances have improved (BY ALL ACCOUNTS). We've conceded late goals vs Burton, Fulham and Leeds - if we don't concede those daft goals then it's 4 extra points on the board - still a poor start of course, but not cut adrift like we are now.

He's got to remain upbeat, he's got to try to rally the troops ahead of an already MASSIVE game against Rotherham - he's not going to sit there and say "It's a hopeless situation and we're preparing for League One."

He's not the right man for the job IMO, he lied through his teeth when he said he'd never heard of Kentaro, in my view he got the job through underhand reasons - but that interview is really the least of our worries.

[chor808]

I really don't like Coyle and I think he's a bloody poor manager - but I haven't actually read anything too bad in that.

He's admitted the first three games were dreadful, something Kean never did. And he's correct that performances have improved (BY ALL ACCOUNTS). We've conceded late goals vs Burton, Fulham and Leeds - if we don't concede those daft goals then it's 4 extra points on the board - still a poor start of course, but not cut adrift like we are now.

He's got to remain upbeat, he's got to try to rally the troops ahead of an already MASSIVE game against Rotherham - he's not going to sit there and say "It's a hopeless situation and we're preparing for League One."

He's not the right man for the job IMO, he lied through his teeth when he said he'd never heard of Kentaro, in my view he got the job through underhand reasons - but that interview is really the least of our worries.

Oh I fully aware he is the least of our worries. I've just grow really really tired of the 'positives', it grinds you down it really does.

[Jimmy612]

Oh I fully aware he is the least of our worries. I've just grow really really tired of the 'positives', it grinds you down it really does.

With you on that - he's always been good at talking anyway - shame you don't pick up points for media relations.

[sambo]

His latest Rovers.co.uk interview is just cringeworthy.

"It is great when we have those Blackburn Rovers fans singing and supporting the players, getting behind them and really driving them on"

Sounds desperate.

[ABBEY]

Kean book of venkyganda

[chor808]

His latest Rovers.co.uk interview is just cringeworthy.

"It is great when we have those Blackburn Rovers fans singing and supporting the players, getting behind them and really driving them on"

Sounds desperate.

It's horrible. Who reads that and thinks 'Yeah that's me cheering the boys I'm great, driving them on! Nice one Owen'....no one I hope.

[DE.]

It's horrible. Who reads that and thinks 'Yeah that's me cheering the boys I'm great, driving them on! Nice one Owen'....no one I hope.

I can think of at least two people on here alone you'd probably be unpleasantly surprised at how many of the remaining fans appreciate such statements.

[JBiz]

If these aren't all acts designed to bury a club then I don't what is.

but more a response to the power plays

Anyhow I will grant you Lambert probably wasn't hired just to look legit - although from Chesterton to Shaw, this has been a strategy employed in the past.

Also you need to factor in timing. It's been a slow process, but sometimes asset stripping is. Make sure all the parachute payments are got, that there's a steady turnover of players who money can be made on

the last two undoubtedly have seen them utterly strip the assets out of the squad - to the point of leaving the squad thin and not replaced. Perhaps they haven't always wanted to down the club but they sure as heck do now. Look at how thin the squad was and is, look at how small the investment is, look at how few assets there are now left in the team. The evidence from the last 2 years clearly points to people wanting to see the club asset stripped and sunk.

I guess this is all a long winded way of saying that their initial motives may be debatable, but that from the last 2 years it has been clear to squeeze everything they can from the club to the point of killing it.

It makes me think that there must have been a plan of ill intent from the very start.

Trimmed some down to try and reply to the important parts;

1. Acts designed to bury the club? By whom? If you are suggesting that, can you explain why someone would set fire to 100m+ of their own money, damage their global brand and become a figure of hate within one community, and a joke in another? These acts are easily explained by being hoodwinked by agents intent on pocketing!

2. The part about power plays I agree on - initial championship season cost us a fortune because if constant changing of the breeze, shebby, shaw, the managers, confused etc

3. Hired to look legit a past tactic? I don't quite understand that. If anything, it took 4 years to make an appointment of some legitimacy so that makes no sense.

4. Asset stripping. The definition should be pinned on this website because it's frustrating to read this term used. Asset stripping is what happens if another dodgy owner buys us for cheap and sells parts aka players, the training facility etc to pay for the transaction.

Venkys haven't asset stripped BRFC. Look at the numbers. They've bankrolled us into oblivion. Yes, we've had "assets" stripped from us, ie selling players but that's not the same thing.

5. The value of the club goes up with its position and down in a similar way. You can't just say "they are purposely taking us down" without looking at the ridiculous decisions, the investment, cost etc. They (the owners) have screwed us over by making the wrong decisions - it makes little sense in any format to say this was a purposeful act, they had no way of benefitting from.

6. Ofcourse there was ill intent- those giving advice had no conscience for stealing millions from our club. It makes no sense to suggest the owners would buy us to spite us, to ruin themselves financially and waste 100m+, damage their global brand and essentially (as said before) damage their reputation beyond fixing.

As jimmy I think said - it's easy to make us look silly by avoiding the actual story for a made up one about Indians teaching lowly peasants a lesson!

Why is it so hard to go with what stands out;

The heavily simplified; rich man gets conned, con artists tie up money for a long time, rich man gets more poor advice, rich man now poorer and a joke gives up and fades away.

The reason why they aren't investing is simple, when would it stop? 200m, 300m?

The sad part is - Coyle just shows that they still listen to poor advice. They picked him because he was cheap and probably had the right agent to get in.

They'll continue to make these mistakes though, but to buy into some conspiracy seems ridiculous in my eyes!

[47er]

Just mistakes then? Sorry I don't believe it.

[Hasta]

The heavily simplified; rich man gets conned, con artists tie up money for a long time, rich man gets more poor advice, rich man now poorer and a joke gives up and fades away.

The reason why they aren't investing is simple, when would it stop? 200m, 300m?

The sad part is - Coyle just shows that they still listen to poor advice. They picked him because he was cheap and probably had the right agent to get in.

They'll continue to make these mistakes though, but to buy into some conspiracy seems ridiculous in my eyes!

Rich man gets conned.

Recognises he's been conned and sends a solicitors letter stating this to the people who conned him.

However he keeps dealing with them and refuse to sack one of their 'henchman' who is directly in charge of the team.

MD who was brought in by the con artists goes renegade, proves unreliable in court and costs him a load more money. However MD still employed for a further 2 years before he eventually leaves.

During this time, rich man appoint his own person to keep an eye on whats going on at the club. His own man says, in admittedly undocumented form, that MD and con artists are causing relegation by design. Own man leaves the club long before MD.

We could presume the rich man is not just gullible but utterly, utterly stupid for not removing these characters when he realises they are costing him big money. However their business record would suggest they maybe aren't that stupid.

Still too many blanks and unanswered questions in this story for me.

[Amo]

That's a nice sarcastic response.

Let's go through this bit by bit. Firstly - what decisions have they made for the betterment of the club - from Kean, to the 5 managers season, to the constant lowering of the budget, to running - or not running - things from India, where has anything been for the betterment of the club? If these aren't all acts designed to bury a club then I don't what is.

Secondly Appleton - well results weren't too important that season as we had 5 managers, apparently Singh also picking the team at times. Sackings didn't seem to happen for the betterment of the club that season but more a response to the power plays. There's also the naivety that if relegation is on the cards then someone is sacked - didn't work with Kean did it?

Anyhow I will grant you Lambert probably wasn't hired just to look legit - although from Chesterton to Shaw, this has been a strategy employed in the past. But I will say that it didn't massively seem to be for the betterment of the club - after all if it was then surely they'd have spoken to him. Surely they'd have given him a decent budget. The idea he was there for our betterment is undone by the shoddy way he was treated and lack of support - the two contradict each other.

Also you need to factor in timing. It's been a slow process, but sometimes asset stripping is. Make sure all the parachute payments are got, that there's a steady turnover of players who money can be made on - both of which are true, but isn't it interesting that as the parachute payments have run out the squad has been dangerously weakened going into both the last 2 seasons? When Rhodes was sold also ties in with this happening after many of the other assets have been sold. Plus we're assuming a degree of normalcy into the hiring and selling of Rhodes - wasn't he a panic buy pushed through by Singh, was there an element of stubborn pride in not selling earlier? It's not easy to say it's as easy as they brought him as they want to succeed.

Huge point made too about plans having changed. Because whilst we could debate the first three seasons of terror, the last two undoubtedly have seen them utterly strip the assets out of the squad - to the point of leaving the squad thin and not replaced. Perhaps they haven't always wanted to down the club but they sure as heck do now. Look at how thin the squad was and is, look at how small the investment is, look at how few assets there are now left in the team. The evidence from the last 2 years clearly points to people wanting to see the club asset stripped and sunk.

I guess this is all a long winded way of saying that their initial motives may be debatable, but that from the last 2 years it has been clear to squeeze everything they can from the club to the point of killing it. It nearly happened last season, and it very likely will this. Personally given the shambolic way they've handled the club from day 1 and the fact mistakes have not been learned from makes me think that there must have been a plan of ill intent from the very start.

It was sarcastic because you conveniently shifted the goalposts. It becomes a tautological argument because nothing can ever disprove the conspiracy theory if the non-conspiratorial behaviour is part of it. Also, I would contest the notion that they would need to cover anything up. Plenty of clubs have sunk like a stone through dodgy ownership, all under the auspices of our friends at the FA. I don't remember anyone stepping in to investigate.

I don't see any evidence of a cabalistic plot to purposefully relegate the club. Some will point to the relegation clauses in Kean's contract as proof, but that was a scam to keep him on the gravy train irrespective of performance, as him and his cronies knew he was promoted above his station. It still would've been financially viable to keep the club in the Premier League, not only for Kean but all of them looking to get rich quick. Don't confuse action with intention.

I know fans want to believe that there's some master plan to explain the last six years. It's only natural to look for method in the madness, but I'm afraid the conspiracy theories don't stand up to scrutiny. The logical answer is that we have basketcase owners whose negligence and arrogance created a hotbed for agents and all manner of parasites looking to profit from the situation. Different advisers with vested interests have had their ear, and this is reflected in the slipshod decision-making process throughout their tenure. What's the plan now? It would appear they're picking the bones clean as part of an exit strategy but I always expect the unexpected with this lot.

[Blue blood]

Trimmed some down to try and reply to the important parts;

1. Acts designed to bury the club? By whom? If you are suggesting that, can you explain why someone would set fire to 100m+ of their own money, damage their global brand and become a figure of hate within one community, and a joke in another? These acts are easily explained by being hoodwinked by agents intent on pocketing!

2. The part about power plays I agree on - initial championship season cost us a fortune because if constant changing of the breeze, shebby, shaw, the managers, confused etc

3. Hired to look legit a past tactic? I don't quite understand that. If anything, it took 4 years to make an appointment of some legitimacy so that makes no sense.

4. Asset stripping. The definition should be pinned on this website because it's frustrating to read this term used. Asset stripping is what happens if another dodgy owner buys us for cheap and sells parts aka players, the training facility etc to pay for the transaction.

Venkys haven't asset stripped BRFC. Look at the numbers. They've bankrolled us into oblivion. Yes, we've had "assets" stripped from us, ie selling players but that's not the same thing.

5. The value of the club goes up with its position and down in a similar way. You can't just say "they are purposely taking us down" without looking at the ridiculous decisions, the investment, cost etc. They (the owners) have screwed us over by making the wrong decisions - it makes little sense in any format to say this was a purposeful act, they had no way of benefitting from.

6. Ofcourse there was ill intent- those giving advice had no conscience for stealing millions from our club. It makes no sense to suggest the owners would buy us to spite us, to ruin themselves financially and waste 100m+, damage their global brand and essentially (as said before) damage their reputation beyond fixing.

As jimmy I think said - it's easy to make us look silly by avoiding the actual story for a made up one about Indians teaching lowly peasants a lesson!

Why is it so hard to go with what stands out;

The heavily simplified; rich man gets conned, con artists tie up money for a long time, rich man gets more poor advice, rich man now poorer and a joke gives up and fades away.

The reason why they aren't investing is simple, when would it stop? 200m, 300m?

The sad part is - Coyle just shows that they still listen to poor advice. They picked him because he was cheap and probably had the right agent to get in.

They'll continue to make these mistakes though, but to buy into some conspiracy seems ridiculous in my eyes!

Thanks for the well reasoned reply though disagree with some key points.

Biggest one being it's just mistakes for numerous reasons:

Perhaps most significantly that were it by chance OR madness that we were ruled, we would have got at least some decisions right. As it is they haven't got a single one right - well perhaps the exception of Lambert but given they didn't talk to him or give him a budget, it made it impossible, so I think you'd struggle to count that as right. So every single decision wrong? if I left a chimpanzee in charge they'd have by pure fluke got more decisions right. The sheer volume of everything got wrong from boardroom to pitch to communication is far too much to be a coincidence and continues to be so.

Secondly there is clearly ill intent and things untoward going on as the appointment of Coyle shows. The application process, Chesterton's comments, Coyle's SEM links and denial of them. All seems a bit fishy and that's before you consider the previous goings on at the club.

Regarding your other points, perhaps the biggest is the one I've highlighted - that the alternative to 'it's all a mistake' is they would buy us to spite us and waste money - that's not what I am suggesting. Regardless of the reasons for being brought, it's clear that the club has been used for ill intent. Whilst this may well initially have been by the agents and advisors to say Venkys haven't and aren't using us for ill intent is nonsensical. Look at the position we're in, all available assets playing staff are being sold. Just because they can't get their hands on/find a way to sell brockhall doesn't mean they're not asset stripping what they can.

I'll grant you they didn't buy the club to spite or bury us but I would contend that for the past few years that they are bleeding us dry regardless of the cost. My position would be yes there is ill intent, started from the moment they realised they'd been sold a dud, had, and thought how do we get something out of this?

FWIW my hypothesis is similar to you:

They're sold a dud, agents are able to con and divert money in a naughty manner. Think everyone agrees on this.

When Venkys realise what has happened their thought is how do we get anything out of this, and respond by slowly downgrading the team etc. and pocketing what money they can. I'd suggest they felt this was the only way possible, given there are too many skeletons to allow the club to be sold. Grabbing what we can out of the club is what they see as the only option. This started with hiring cheap managers and has culminated in selling as many players as possible. Somewhere along the way to ensure costs are cut beyond any reasonable measure, Coyle gets appointed in dubious circumstances to aid this process.

[JBiz]

True hasta - but do we fill the blanks with theories or make effort to find the truth?

The scenario is bigger than a family of four losing money, I'll agree with anyone on that but ultimately, I still think that the actual owners are not complicit in stealing from themselves.

[JBiz]

Blue blood - no worries, I enjoy discussion here when it's like this- it's actually obvious that we have a similar view.

I think the key difference in that would be the mistakes thing, Venkys have never made a decision, it's the purchasing of advice that's been mainly ridiculous, the odd bit of advice they've taken has made sense; lambert was the correct decision, forcing Kean out was the correct decision (and the way it happened just proves what had gone on before with his "contract extension"), giving the job long term to GB was the correct decision, following up the other correct decision of giving him the chance after 5 managers in 8 months (or whatever it was)...

I also think that they've made some good decisions with the academy and other aspects involved in the community element...

Ofcourse, these are completely outweighed by the sheer negligence and criminal mistakes made!

As topman said, the evidence is there- no need to fill in blanks.

The fact they still rely on advice is probably the hardest pill to swallow but we are talking about a family who have zero idea of how to run things. Hence why they probably bought into "Jerome's big con"..

[Blue blood]

It was sarcastic because you conveniently shifted the goalposts. It becomes a tautological argument because nothing can ever disprove the conspiracy theory if the non-conspiratorial behaviour is part of it. Also, I would contest the notion that they would need to cover anything up. Plenty of clubs have sunk like a stone through dodgy ownership, all under the auspices of our friends at the FA. I don't remember anyone stepping in to investigate.

Apologies if you felt I was moving the goal posts and that got you upset - it was a suggestion. As my reply hopefully made clear I remain unconvinced it was non-conspiratorial behaviour on the grounds that they didn't communicate with him or give him a budget. Also there is evidence of doing so in the current regime e.g. Chesterton who is a legal rubber stamp man of positive things being done to keep things quiet. However I'd agree with you that's probably not the case with Lambert, but I'd argue given what we know in hindsight that it's questionable if Lambert's appointment was intended as a positive move.

I don't see any evidence of a cabalistic plot to purposefully relegate the club. Some will point to the relegation clauses in Kean's contract as proof, but that was a scam to keep him on the gravy train irrespective of performance, as him and his cronies knew he was promoted above his station. It still would've been financially viable to keep the club in the Premier League, not only for Kean but all of them looking to get rich quick. Don't confuse action with intention.

Agree on the Kean thing. As posted above I believe Venkys started leading the naughtiness later on.

I know fans want to believe that there's some master plan to explain the last six years. It's only natural to look for method in the madness, but I'm afraid the conspiracy theories don't stand up to scrutiny. The logical answer is that we have basketcase owners whose negligence and arrogance created a hotbed for agents and all manner of parasites looking to profit from the situation. Different advisers with vested interests have had their ear, and this is reflected in the slipshod decision-making process throughout their tenure. What's the plan now? It would appear they're picking the bones clean as part of an exit strategy but I always expect the unexpected with this lot.

Deliberately trying to relegate us - hmm I think they are trying to as you say pick the bones clean, or bleed us dry. I also think they know that doing so will most likely cause us relegation. To use their baby metaphor - they're keeping all the child benefit for themselves, as well as saving money by not feeding it. The objective is to save money but they know what effect that will have on the baby. It might not be the intent, but they know that it will be the consequence of their actions. I believe this has been the case for a number of years, and again the appointment of Coyle seems in part to ensure this process happens.