[Archived] Fulham On Saturday 27Th August

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Tell me that is sarcasm...

At least he's funny. Little else about Rovers makes me laugh these days.

[blue kiwi]

Reading through the posts it's intesting the points that are made by the actual fans that attended.most agree that the defence was a big improvement on recent games,many pundits will tell us good teams are built from the back.then thinks go pear shaped most agree that the midfield and attack are poor,let's hope the kid from west ham is decent and may improve things.the biggest problem is the manager good old owen,I can't go along with this don't get on his back because the media will not like,the guy is clueless and should never have been given the job.

He got the gig because he is someone who venkys and there advisors thought the fans would never take to,they were right but it's not stopped venkys getting bad press in a way it's added to the bad press,let's hope venkys leave when we get relagated but I fear so far the job is only half done.

[martonrover]

Relegation fodder written all over it. I actually thought we were significantly improved today in comparison to our previous 4 games in the league, and yet we still manage to find a way to lose, at home, to what will no doubt end up as a mid-table side come the end of the season. It was the first time this season that we looked like a side with some sort of identity, shape, organisation and resilience, and the 0-0 would probably have been a fair result, yet it doesn't mean anything in the scheme of things.

That's now 3 points dropped in the dying few minutes of our last two home games against Burton and Fulham. Unforgiveable really, and a clear as day indication that we're only going one way.

One thing alarmed me more than anything else today. When the 4th official put his board up for 6 minutes injury time Coyle looked absolutely furious that so much time had been added on. He approached the 4th official and said something, which looked as though he wasn't happy with the amount of time added on. From that we then spent the majority of the 6 minutes camped around the edge of our area desperately trying to hang on for the point

If we're going to have any chance then we need to look upon 6 minutes injury time as an opportunity to go on and win the game. That's what Fulham seemed to do whilst we decided to retreat in some desperate and doomed attempt to hold on for a 0-0 at home despite still awaiting our first win of the season. I wanted to see the manager urging his team on to try and find the much needed winner in that 6 minutes, and yet all he did was moan at the 4th official and then sit down as his team backed off before inevitably conceding.

Another positive, after Rotherham's thrashing at Barnsley today we no longer have the worst goal difference in the league!

If Coyle is happy with a point at home, that says it all, (especially after the start we've made).

Fulham had to play extra time twenty four hours later than us.

We should've been pressing for the win.

[Stuart]

Problem is, even if what you say is true about a decent side - and I'd suggest in 12 months time when age or loans have kicked in and we have no defense or cover for our strikers that the decent part will be much tested - Coyle couldn't get a tune out of them whatsoever.

Was saying on another thread Derby have a cracking team - Ince, Bent, Hughes in the midfield, Carson in goal - but can't do anything. For all their talent they're not getting anywhere. That's where strategy and tactics come in and in and Coyle is lacking very badly in that area. This is a league that needs fight and tactics and under Coyle we have neither and so are doomed.

Other examples include Burton and Barnsley - poor quality teams but they're getting points on the board, or Rotherham - they look abysmal at the moment, yet nearly the same group were kept up comfortably with Warnock. A good manager with the right attitude and tactics makes all the difference, as example after example shows. Coyle is a difference maker in a different sense.

Oh and the decent squad thing still baffles me. Once the loans return we are threadbare, whilst we've still a few key holes in the side including cm and gk.

Good post. This is why it bemuses me when some folk, some long enough in the tooth, still blame the players when things go wrong - as happened a lot with Bowyer.

The manager - and specifically man-management and motivation - is vital to a team's success. Football history is littered with examples of great managers succeeding with very ordinary sides and poor or incompatible managers failing with great sides. Players have to buy into the manager's ideas of course but, again, that comes down to the manager. Burnley's players believed in him, maybe he got a bit of lucky as well which reinforced that belief with a few wins early on.

[Speedie Dived]

Good post. This is why it bemuses me when some folk, some long enough in the tooth, still blame the players when things go wrong - as happened a lot with Bowyer.

The manager - and specifically man-management and motivation - is vital to a team's success. Football history is littered with examples of great managers succeeding with very ordinary sides and poor or incompatible managers failing with great sides. Players have to buy into the manager's ideas of course but, again, that comes down to the manager. Burnley's players believed in him, maybe he got a bit of lucky as well which reinforced that belief with a few wins early on.

I can't think of one example of an ordinary side winning anything. Players outweigh managers ten fold.

[Stuart]

I can't think of one example of an ordinary side winning anything. Players outweigh managers ten fold.

Really? Not one?

[Speedie Dived]

Really? Not one?

Maybe Wimbledon winning the FA cup, but even then they had quality players. Take a crap manager with 11 good uns all day long

[Stuart]

Maybe Wimbledon winning the FA cup, but even then they had quality players. Take a crap manager with 11 good uns all day long

Recipe for failure. And doesn't happen. A crap manager will only get bum notes out of good players.

Surprised it's even up for debate. You really think teams have done well in spite of the manager and not because of him?

Maybe more clubs should follow the VenKean route of moving players on and keeping a crap manager.

[Speedie Dived]

Recipe for failure. And doesn't happen. A crap manager will only get bum notes out of good players.

Surprised it's even up for debate. You really think teams have done well in spite of the manager and not because of him?

Maybe more clubs should follow the VenKean route of moving players on and keeping a crap manager.

Which ordinary side won things then?

Not comparing it to our disaster show. We have a crap side and a crap manager.

[Ricky]

I can't help but think that Warnock would have been able to put a better team together of frees and loans. The man is known throughout the game and would have got a team together. I also think he would have embraced a siege mentality and pulled everyone together.

He's basically everything that Coyle isn't! He's a manager and a right orrible bstard who would have got our lot fighting for each other and fighting for the shirt! The decision to not appoint him looks more and more strange each day.

[47er]

A good manager can make an ordinary team better than the sum of their individual parts. That"s why we should've gone for Warnock.

[Mike Graham]

I can't think of one example of an ordinary side winning anything. Players outweigh managers ten fold.

Burnley beating Liverpool a week ago?

[Speedie Dived]

Burnley beating Liverpool a week ago?

Not talking one off games.

[Stuart]

Which ordinary side won things then?

Not comparing it to our disaster show. We have a crap side and a crap manager.

I said successful not won things.

It's all relative and I didn't originally say crap, I said ordinary..

Sides managed by decent managers with ordinary players have won plenty, league titles, cups, play-offs

Mourinho - Porto

Ferguson - Aberdeen, Man U (kids year)

Ranieri - Leicester

Granted some of these players went on to be great afterwards.

To a lesser extent including the level you consider "success":

McCarthy - has made a career out of succeeding with average players

Allardyce

Warnock

Bruce

These guys have all done it more than once too.

The manager is THE most important person at a football club. Get that right and you will have a level of success. Get it wrong and you will have... well, Blackburn Rovers 2011-1016.

[Leonard Venkhater]

Graham looks overweight to me. Too many of Coyle's doughnuts?

You are not kidding. He reminded me of Elvis at the end. Got to worry, every time he goes to sit on the toilet....

[Stuart]

You are not kidding. He reminded me of Elvis at the end. Got to worry, every time he goes to sit on the toilet....

[MGAndy]

I said successful not won things.

It's all relative and I didn't originally say crap, I said ordinary..

Sides managed by decent managers with ordinary players have won plenty, league titles, cups, play-offs

Mourinho - Porto

Ferguson - Aberdeen, Man U (kids year)

Ranieri - Leicester

Granted some of these players went on to be great afterwards.

To a lesser extent including the level you consider "success":

McCarthy - has made a career out of succeeding with average players

Allardyce

Warnock

Bruce

These guys have all done it more than once too.

The manager is THE most important person at a football club. Get that right and you will have a level of success. Get it wrong and you will have... well, Blackburn Rovers 2011-1016.

Inversely good managers can do crap with 11 good uns if them players don't like him or cba or whatever.

Jose at Chelsea last year. He made a massive error with what he did with that doctor imo.

Moyes at Utd

There are loads of examples.

The manager is hugely important like in any business of setting the culture and motivating the team.

However its more than just the manager. Players, coaches, system, fans, owners... all play a part.

Not sure ANY manager could do anything in certain circumstances.

[JBiz]

I'm with Stuart here - you can make average team good with basic organisation.

We are currently in disarray. Our shape was horrific, we had several players not putting the correct shift in. We are hopeless without the ball under Coyle - few bits of decent play with but not enough.

If we had a Pulis, Big Sam, Dyche etc etc- I think we STILL have enough quality to be organised and hard to beat in this league.

[DE.]

I can't think of one example of an ordinary side winning anything. Players outweigh managers ten fold.

Nowadays success isn't just measured by winning things. There are only so many trophies up for grabs and if we're dismissing every other manager as a failure that seems pretty harsh to me.

[Ricky]

Which ordinary side won things then?

Not comparing it to our disaster show. We have a crap side and a crap manager.

Wow, now that's a short memory! We've just seen the most ordinary team in premier league history win the league. A team of grafters and rejects with the odd bargain bin signing thrown into the mix.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I can see both sides but I'm more with Stuart. Maybe not in the pre-90s era when footballers were fairly normal blokes concerned with putting food on the table.

But in the era of the footballer earning 6-8 figure salaries you've got a lot of spoilt, entitled, temperamental, rich young many who, if they're talented, don't really have to play for a poor manager.

Which is exactly why I thought the loss of Duffy was a bad thing. Yeah by the end he looked a joke, but if we'd had the manager from last season, we'd have had the player from last season. Chelsea didn't offload Hazard after he went from genius to rubbish last season, and would their fans have given it the whole "good riddance" thing if they had? His revival under Conte is exactly why you keep good, sulking players and you change the manager to get them back on side.

[broadsword]

We certainly don't have a big Sam.

Big sham, yeah.

Big Sam, no.

[Speedie Dived]

Wow, now that's a short memory! We've just seen the most ordinary team in premier league history win the league. A team of grafters and rejects with the odd bargain bin signing thrown into the mix.

Who won player of the year? Ranieri is no genius

[Ricky]

If I'm not mistaken 'player of the year' is generally won by a player and not a team

Not the argument you are having here. Your comment was about an ordinary team not winning anything.

[den]

Wow, now that's a short memory! We've just seen the most ordinary team in premier league history win the league. A team of grafters and rejects with the odd bargain bin signing thrown into the mix.

You have to wonder why Dalglish had to replace our second division squad then, if it's mainly about the manager.

Obviously it's far more about player quality than it is about tactics or man management.