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[Archived] Burnley Relegation Thread

Gav

By Gav
in Football Messageboard Archive

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47er

47er

Posted
Posted

Did you read the piece? Sound more like he called his opponent a soft @#/? or suchlike. What Gray posted was utterly stupid but let's not get over-sensitive about these things generally.

Just as an aside, hypothetically, if it'd been a League One encounter between two heterosexual players and he'd said "get up ya puff" after he went down in a heap, would that be forgiven as football banter or would it be a homophobic slur? Or does it depend on the sexuality and sensitivity of the recipient? Genuine question for anyone really.

It's not on Stuart. Once upon a time it was a "black @#/?" till we realised that was totally unacceptable.

Are we really still saying calling someone a puff or a queer or a lesbian is OK? In this day and age? Really?

No excuses. It's never OK.

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Dreams of 1995

Dreams of 1995

Posted
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I know people that went to school with Andre Gray during my time down in the Midlands at university. It's fair to say that he's of very 'distinct taste'. Some people have nothing but good things to say about him (although I suspect a lot of this is because of the 'fame factor) while others told me he's an absolute disgrace of a man and had he not managed to get a career in football he'd more than likely be in and out of prison. Not a nice man by any means.

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Stuart World Cup

Stuart

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Posted

Interesting responses.

I have a real beef with the banning of words as I don't think this addresses the issue. All that happens is that more and more people become closet whatever-ists and ignorance is perpetuated. Calling this a "hate crime" is a problem too as it dilutes the seriousness of real hate crime. We teach our kids 'sticks and stones' but don't believe it. If the guy had laughed it off as banter, the two would probably have shared a drink together and that would have likely been the end of it. Instead we have "you can't say that to him because he's X".

Bullying absolutely needs to be stamped out but too much is lost for the sake of creating phobias, compartmentalising and building invisible walls. IMHO we will never have true inclusivity or equality (if equality really is a goal) until we see a gay person or a black person or a Muslim person as just a person.

Including insults, banter and jokes, and the misplaced if well-meaning 'positive discrimination'.

Are we really still saying calling someone a puff or a queer or a lesbian is OK? In this day and age? Really?

No excuses. It's never OK.

Never? Do you really mean 'never'? Think about it before you reply.
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Proudtobeblue&white Champions League

Proudtobeblue&white

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Interesting question. I would say that calling someone a 'poof' is an offence, regardless of whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, or whether uttered in the heat of a moment on a sports field, or in a pub. But I'm sure a decent lawyer could argue against that opinion.

I'm a fairly decent lawyer, and agree with you entirely - totally unacceptable.

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oldjamfan1

oldjamfan1

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It's not on Stuart. Once upon a time it was a "black @#/?" till we realised that was totally unacceptable.

Are we really still saying calling someone a puff or a queer or a lesbian is OK? In this day and age? Really?

No excuses. It's never OK.

I'm not sure that word I've highlighted fits in with the others. Lesbian in itself isn't an offensive word, the other two are, in any context.

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Stuart World Cup

Stuart

Posted
Posted

How do the ones on Jonathan Ross get away with it then ...4 puffs and a piano

There cannot be one rule for one and one rule for another.

This means the gay community cannot use these slurs, even in fun/banter, with each other. Never.

Tottenham fans cannot refer to themselves with Jewish slurs. Never.

American rappers cannot use racial slurs or call their friends the N-word [in place of 'buddy']. Never.

Appreciating that legalese types have a career to be made and money to be earned by calling these things 'crimes' but in reality (arguing against my own points above) it's not the words, it's the intent that is the issue.

I'm not sure that word I've highlighted fits in with the others. Lesbian in itself isn't an offensive word, the other two are, in any context.

That's simply not the case.

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oldjamfan1

oldjamfan1

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That's simply not the case.

I think you'll find that in law they are Stuart. I actually agree with the point you are making (that they shouldn't be) as it happens but 'poof' and 'queer' are terms that are considered offensive, whether you agree with it or not. 'Lesbian' can be offensive (depending on context) but if used in its proper context isn't.

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Stuart World Cup

Stuart

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I think you'll find that in law they are Stuart. I actually agree with the point you are making (that they shouldn't be) as it happens but 'poof' and 'queer' are terms that are considered offensive, whether you agree with it or not. 'Lesbian' can be offensive (depending on context) but if used in its proper context isn't.

You said 'any context'.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/queer-is-still-derogatory-to-many-but-more-people-are/article_12830b41-84ee-5c5c-9ada-d39ea17aa65d.html

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oldjamfan1

oldjamfan1

Posted
Posted

So you don't mean 'any context' then.

Looks like we weren't having the debate I thought we were then.

The only 'debate' I was having was around three particular words - 'poof', 'queer' and 'lesbian' where I felt that lesbian had instances where it can legitimately be used without any fear of committing - as opposed to 'causing' - offence. The other two words you can get arrested for directing at someone else. The article you posted the link to which suggests that some members of the LGBT community 'don't mind' being called queer and for that matter Abbey's example of 'four poofs and a piano' don't make any difference. They may very well self-refer using that terminology and in that sense black people often refer to each other with the 'n' word but it doesn't make it any less offensive or illegal. You would be taking a huge risk using those words yourself to describe someone unless you know the person you are addressing very well - and even than 'someone else' might be offended. Its semantics really. I know quite a few homosexual men and most of them are generally pretty relaxed about that sort of thing, but I would be extremely wary of using the particular two words above in their company, even if they themselves use them. I suppose when I say 'any context' what I mean is - anyone could complain if they heard you use them and you could get into trouble for it - because they are considered unacceptable (wrongly in my view, in that blanket way).

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47er

47er

Posted
Posted

Interesting responses.

Never? Do you really mean 'never'? Think about it before you reply.

I think you should have done that!

Seriously, times have changed and what was considered OK once is now not. The reason is we never considered the feelings of those on the end of it and the consequences for them and their families.

More awareness now, therefore no excuse.

I'm not sure that word I've highlighted fits in with the others. Lesbian in itself isn't an offensive word, the other two are, in any context.

I agree, Calling someone a lesbian as a taunt is what I was thinking. Obviously it depends on context.

Perhaps "dyke" is a better example?

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47er

47er

Posted
Posted

I suppose the terms could be used legitimately perhaps in a discussion about past usage of language or in a play about yesterday.

However I didn't realise we were moving in those higher circles! The context was surely about insults, often delivered unthinkingly by the way.

Anyhow,I don't want a row with you Stuart, I've said all I have to say. It's a storm in a tea-cup, let's all move on.

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Stuart World Cup

Stuart

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Posted

I suppose the terms could be used legitimately perhaps in a discussion about past usage of language or in a play about yesterday.

However I didn't realise we were moving in those higher circles! The context was surely about insults, often delivered unthinkingly by the way.

Anyhow,I don't want a row with you Stuart, I've said all I have to say. It's a storm in a tea-cup, let's all move on.

Agreed. Now you've clarified your position, we are agreeing anyway.

And Gray is still a muppet. His views were pretty explicit.

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oldjamfan1

oldjamfan1

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I think you should have done that!

Seriously, times have changed and what was considered OK once is now not. The reason is we never considered the feelings of those on the end of it and the consequences for them and their families.

More awareness now, therefore no excuse.

I agree, Calling someone a lesbian as a taunt is what I was thinking. Obviously it depends on context.

Perhaps "dyke" is a better example?

Yes, absolutely. 'Dyke' would have been the example that fit in with the other two offensive words. Not to be confused with the Burnley manager.

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Mike E World Cup

Mike E

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Yes, absolutely. 'Dyke' would have been the example that fit in with the other two offensive words. Not to be confused with the Burnley manager.

If a geologist points at a lesbian sitting on a very particular geological feature and shouts 'Dyke!', is he being offensive?

;)

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