[Archived] England World Cup Campaign

[chaddyrovers]

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Dyche who took a very average set of players from the Championship to preparing for a second Prem season is "no thanks" but Southgate who is a proven managerial failure is the right man? And I bet Howe would have done.

So why didn't you criticise him for picking almost half a side that you dont agree with, when you have every right to do so? You can disagree with a manager you know.

We do but there are better options, Barkley as you say, Ward-Prowse, Dier, yes it's not ideal but Livermore is a joke of an England player.

And Rashford will instinctively drift in because he isnt a winger! And we have 2 on the bench, both of whom had an impact as subs.

Howe always maintained he was too young which he is.

Southgate did win something as under 21's manager. which is success.

What do Low win before taking Germany to success?

I didn't criticise cos I couldn't be assed with it since you already had.

Barkley isn't a centre midfield player, he is a number 10 player. Ward Prowse is good prospect but that it. Cant think of too many. I like Eric Dier in centre midfield

 

[AllRoverAsia]

England will never achieve anything if we have to select players like Smalling, Dier and Livermore, to name just 3.

England caps come cheap these days.

Rashford is overhyped and not a winger but will never threaten Kane as main striker.

Ali if he's not careful will fizzle out early like Wilshire.

There is not too much to be excited about.

Whilst it was great to win the U20 WC we were totally out footballed in the final in the 2nd half and held out with desperate defending by big and fit athletes. That will not work at the top level of senior international football.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

11 hours ago, J*B said:

You can't be serious? 

Carrick has never been a regular in the poorest England team in my lifetime and I go back as far as The Tom Finney/Stan Mathews era.

Tugay got how many caps for Turkey when they had the best side they ever had ?

Carrick is a good club player but lacks that bit of magic that makes you a top international.

Getting old hasn't got many pluses but it does enable you to have a sense of proportion.

[arbitro]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Carrick has never been a regular in the poorest England team in my lifetime and I go back as far as The Tom Finney/Stan Mathews era.

Tugay got how many caps for Turkey when they had the best side they ever had ?

Carrick is a good club player but lacks that bit of magic that makes you a top international.

Getting old hasn't got many pluses but it does enable you to have a sense of proportion.

I think Carrick is just another of the safe English footballers we see so often in the PL. Very rarely will he play a killer pass and invariably his passes are in the range up to twenty yards.

Personally I don't think he was in the same class as Tugay.

[J*B]

Bloody hell, football is mad! As far as I'm concerned Tugay is a rovers legend, a brilliant playmaker and a fan favourite. But Carrick of 3/4/5 years ago was controlling the tempo of the biggest games in Europe - a completely different level. 

[Oldgregg86]

Just now, J*B said:

Bloody hell, football is mad! As far as I'm concerned Tugay is a rovers legend, a brilliant playmaker and a fan favourite. But Carrick of 3/4/5 years ago was controlling the tempo of the biggest games in Europe - a completely different level. 

It's a good debate and extremely difficult to say which is the better player when although they were both centre mids, had such different attributes to what made them the players they were. I may have blue and white spectacles on but I know Michael Carrick never got me on the edge of my seat or hit a 35 yard volley past some of the best keepers of the time. Michael Carrick was a very under rated footballer who will never get the full credit he deserves but has to be the Turkish delight for me. Shall we throw jack Wilshire into the debate 

[J*B]

Just now, Oldgregg86 said:

It's a good debate and extremely difficult to say which is the better player when although they were both centre mids, had such different attributes to what made them the players they were. I may have blue and white spectacles on but I know Michael Carrick never got me on the edge of my seat or hit a 35 yard volley past some of the best keepers of the time. Michael Carrick was a very under rated footballer who will never get the full credit he deserves but has to be the Turkish delight for me. Shall we through jack Wilshire into the debate 

No problem - Jack Wilshere isn't half the player either of them are!

[Oldgregg86]

Ha I know . I was joking. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Carrick was a good all round footballer who  because he could pass the ball ten yards further than the rest was lauded by the English press  to be a Gerson like maestro.  He also played in an almost permanently top of the table side along side some World class players. 

Tugay played with a mid table Rovers team with some pretty average players along with the top players we had. He still shone like a beacon. Ask Robbie Savage.

[arbitro]

https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/mark-noble-shuns-lampard-and-gerrard-for-blackburn-hero-in-his-all-time-premier-league-xi-43500

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, J*B said:

Bloody hell, football is mad! As far as I'm concerned Tugay is a rovers legend, a brilliant playmaker and a fan favourite. But Carrick of 3/4/5 years ago was controlling the tempo of the biggest games in Europe - a completely different level. 

Carrick in his prime or Tugay in his prime?

No contest for me.

[bellamy11]

I'd prefer to watch Tugay all day long. And I think when you're not challenging for silverware all the time it's better to have the magic player than the functional one because they're treasured memories. Tugay also had such a sense of "theatre" to his actions - the silly substitution ritual; micky-taking and dummies to completely humiliate players; pretending to catch the ball coming out of the sky, for no reason at all! He played for the fans. Easily in my top 5 favourite footballers.

But Carrick has 300+ appearances across a decade of playing for United at a time where they've won 5 premier leagues, reached 3 Champions League finals etc. The guy can play. That he didn't get in the England side enough, for me, says more about the England management than the player.

[speeeeeeedie]

13 minutes ago, bellamy11 said:

I'd prefer to watch Tugay all day long. And I think when you're not challenging for silverware all the time it's better to have the magic player than the functional one because they're treasured memories. Tugay also had such a sense of "theatre" to his actions - the silly substitution ritual; micky-taking and dummies to completely humiliate players; pretending to catch the ball coming out of the sky, for no reason at all! He played for the fans. Easily in my top 5 favourite footballers.

But Carrick has 300+ appearances across a decade of playing for United at a time where they've won 5 premier leagues, reached 3 Champions League finals etc. The guy can play. That he didn't get in the England side enough, for me, says more about the England management than the player.

Agreed.

Tugay was a maestro and a pleasure to watch. Could he have fit in at the top table? Who knows. I do remember journo once asking Mark Hughes if he wished that he had a younger Tugay. Hughes replied no, as he'd be playing for Barcelona.

Carrick is a different player. He's an underappreciated footballer who performed admirable work for some good Man U sides. Big teams need a player like Carrick to keep it ticking over. He's done that well. His lack of England caps are partly down to successive managers trying to fit Lampard and Gerrard into the same team, instead of playing one of them with Carrick in behind.

Here's an article on England opponents tomorrow and their embarrassment of riches; France squad

There's a long way to go before Russia and although I am an eternal optimist when it comes to England I think that they are improving.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Why didn't Tugay ever play for a "big club"  do people think?

[bellamy11]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Why didn't Tugay ever play for a "big club"  do people think?

It's a question I've often wondered myself.

I'm very much open to being contradicted by somebody who knows pre-Rovers Tugay better than me, but from watching a video of him at Galatasaray he seemed a different type of player to the one at Rovers. He scored several goals by appearing late in the box, almost like a Lampard-style player. I wonder if that was how he played in his 20s - in which case he was probably quite limited due to his comparative lack of athleticism. Did the deep-lying playmaker genius stage only really occur in the latter stages of his career when he'd acquired the knowledge to dictate a game and lost any legs he had to play a more attacking role?

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, bellamy11 said:

It's a question I've often wondered myself.

I'm very much open to being contradicted by somebody who knows pre-Rovers Tugay better than me, but from watching a video of him at Galatasaray he seemed a different type of player to the one at Rovers. He scored several goals by appearing late in the box, almost like a Lampard-style player. I wonder if that was how he played in his 20s - in which case he was probably quite limited due to his comparative lack of athleticism. Did the deep-lying playmaker genius stage only really occur in the latter stages of his career when he'd acquired the knowledge to dictate a game and lost any legs he had to play a more attacking role?

Was thinking the same 

[AllRoverAsia]

France v England friendly this evening. 2 am ko here, dont really want to but will get up to watch.

Southgate talking about using Stones in a midfield holding position.

Friendlies are the time to experiment but I think it would say a lot about a squad that Southgate himself picked.

Could be a decent game though so more or less convinced myself to watch.

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:....For Harry, England, and St George 

[roverandout]

Tugay was a genious in a mediocre team, carrick was a good player in a great team (ronaldo, rooney, nani etc)

[joey_big_nose]

On 2017-6-12 at 17:19, Bigdoggsteel said:

Why didn't Tugay ever play for a "big club"  do people think?

Ultimately he lacked consistency, and he peaked at such a late age no big team fancied the outlay required to get him. If he'd been even 3 years younger at rovers someone would have made a big bid.

However he was widely recognised as a fabulous player by all, including Ferguson and Beckham amongst others.

[joey_big_nose]

On 2017-6-12 at 06:40, AllRoverAsia said:

England will never achieve anything if we have to select players like Smalling, Dier and Livermore, to name just 3.

England caps come cheap these days.

Rashford is overhyped and not a winger but will never threaten Kane as main striker.

Ali if he's not careful will fizzle out early like Wilshire.

There is not too much to be excited about.

Whilst it was great to win the U20 WC we were totally out footballed in the final in the 2nd half and held out with desperate defending by big and fit athletes. That will not work at the top level of senior international football.

To be honest it looks a good young squad to me with a lot of talented players. It should do better than the 2008-2014 vintage. Kane, Alli, Dier, Rashford all quality. Like the full backs and decent wingers. Keepers and centrebacks an issue.

Don't think we will win anything - Spain, France, Germany, Brazil and Argentina all too strong - but should be looking to make quarters and semis in tournaments.

We've always lacked the very best players in international tournaments. Never had someone of the Ronaldo, Messi, Zidane, Baggio, Maradona, Iniesta sort of level, which means if we do win something it will be by luck and grinding it out rather than sparkling through.

[arbitro]

This is probably the worst England line up in my lifetime. A pointless game which will serve no purpose whatsoever.

England

• 1 Heaton
• 2 Trippier
• 4 Jones
• 5 Cahill
• 3 Bertrand
• 8 Dier
• 6 Stones
• 11 Oxlade-Chamberlain
• 10 Alli
• 7 Sterling
• 9 Kane

Substitutes

• 12 Walker
• 13 Butland
• 14 Cresswell
• 15 Gibson
• 16 Smalling
• 17 Livermore
• 18 Defoe
• 19 Lallana
• 20 Rashford
• 21 Lingard
• 22 Forster
• 23 Hart

[Mattyblue]

People took the pi$$ out of Graham Taylor's '93 team, 'one of the worst ever England sides'

This was the team from the infamous Holland away game-

David Seaman, Paul Parker, Tony Dorigo, Tony Adams, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, David Platt, Lee Sharpe, Carlton Palmer, Paul Merson, Alan Shearer.

(Gazza was injured)

Nearly all of them title winners, quite the contrast to 2017 I thought.

 

[speeeeeeedie]

10 minutes ago, arbitro said:

This is probably the worst England line up in my lifetime. A pointless game which will serve no purpose whatsoever.

Although friendlies are pointless it gives Southgate time with the team which is very important as they don't get many days together

England's disasterous 1994 World cup campaign had some bad teams. Andy Sinton, Stuart Ripley (good for us but not England class), Carlton Palmer, Tony Dorigo, Lee Dixon, Ian Wright (another who was great a club level but not up to it internationally).

Les Ferdinand too.

 

[Tony Rover]

Tidy little goal!

[Mattyblue]

Wouldn't say I was praising them, but sometimes you forget just how many 'leaders' and winners we had under Taylor - and that was a  poor team compared to the Italia 90 and Euro 96 outfits.