[Archived] Venkys London Ltd Accounts

[Lancaster Rover]

Which thinking about it does throw up an interesting point I've not considered before, was our transfer embargo down to taking a loan from the PFA to pay wages rather than down to FFP. I know a number of clubs have had embargoes but they've not been announced and in many cases the reason given for lack of transfers being FFP, this happens more in League 1 & 2 but no reason it couldn't apply in the championship. A PFA loan may also explain some of those odd short term loans in the accounts.

[tomphil]

You could well be onto something there and once they'd got Cairney through the door then Rudy they could have relaxed it again after having the previous loan squared off. There was always something very odd about our embargo.

[Lancaster Rover]

I may be wrong but I don't remember the FL coming out and saying explicitly we were under an embargo for FFP irregularities.

[tomphil]

True and i remember the thread on here and people trying to fathom it. Other clubs seemed to be getting away with it at the time whilst Rovers got clobbered. Some thought it was because other owners were financing the losses themselves whilst ours was being done with borrowings so the FA clamped down on us first.

Emergency borrowing from them could explain it though and the then rush to get big transfer money in quickly that followed. We know they borrowed against parachutes in advance as well at times. I may be wrong but i think something similar went on at Bolton but the difference being they didn't have the assets to cash we did.

[funny-old-game]

3 hours ago, yoda said:

They could buy us from the administrators using a different entity.

Maybe the real reason we have not entered admin is conflict between the names on the door and the real owners

As fans we are all worried who will be the next owners (the devil you know and all that), and this is why I keep saying the FA should be the ones we go after. 

We need to make sure they are shamed, then scrutinised so this never happens again to us or any other club in the future. 

It sounds a lot and is a lot, but this mess will keep happening if the FA aren't brought to book.

[Rover-the-Top]

Just now, Lancaster Rover said:

I may be wrong but I don't remember the FL coming out and saying explicitly we were under an embargo for FFP irregularities.

Try here:

http://www.efl.com/news/article/2014/championship-financial-fair-play-season-201314-submissions-2144136.aspx

[Brian-Potter]

Not posted on here for a long time but I've always kept up to date on what's on here.

The demise of our club under Venky's has been shocking, the lack of leadership, direction and communication is astounding and what they have done is disgusting, the work that Jack and to an extent the Walker Trust put in over 20 years to re-establish the club in the top flight has been undone in 5 years of incompetent ownership. 

However, some of the conspiracy's as to what's really going on do tend to enter the realms of fantasy. It's understandable though we as fans look at what's happens and cannot comprehend the way that they operate the club which makes us look for logical answers or reasons. The fact is they are not logical, nor are they everyday people like ourselves so trying to understand their motives and methods is not worth considering. We hear various rumours about their wealth but like it or not they have very deep pockets, what seems like horrendous amounts of money to us may well be a drop in the ocean to them. In addition, depending upon the ultimate structure of the Venkys group having a loss making entity like Rovers could be very "tax efficient"

I don't think there is anything in the rumours about administration looming, loans from the PFA to meet wages or any short term cash shortage. They are just rumours people come up with in an attempt to understand the shambles. If things of that nature were going on the news of suppliers, wages and other bills not being paid would be reported as this happens with most companies and clubs in financial difficulty. The fact that they are paying HMRC on time is another indicatIon that there are no cash problems on the horizon. Whilst HMRC can be ruthless when they do start chasing for non payment this is usually one of the creditors that insolvent companies build up large debts to.

Like us all, I wish Venkys would disappear but I don't think that will happen. Furthermore if they did sell us the new owner will still have the same problems, injecting your own capital into a club at our level is now very difficult without breaching FFP. I think all we would achieve is more sensible stewardship, the days of someone coming in with millions and sending us back to the prem are gone.

i don't know what the answer for the future is, I wish i did.

[Dunnfc]

Just now, Brian-Potter said:

I don't think there is anything in the rumours about administration looming, loans from the PFA to meet wages or any short term cash shortage. They are just rumours people come up with in an attempt to understand the shambles. If things of that nature were going on the news of suppliers, wages and other bills not being paid would be reported as this happens with most companies and clubs in financial difficulty. The fact that they are paying HMRC on time is another indicatIon that there are no cash problems on the horizon. Whilst HMRC can be ruthless when they do start chasing for non payment this is usually one of the creditors that insolvent companies build up large debts to.

Good to see you posting Brian, quite a good one too.

I've quoted this paragraph as if you look at the accounts recently filed it looks like at least one short term loan (4.5 Million) was taken out last season at a rate of 14% to which we are still trying to pay off, this appears separate to the main bank loans and overdrafts.

To me that is a concern itself and possibly highlights previous issues with short-term working capital requirements.

[Lancaster Rover]

I can tell you for nowt that clubs taking loans from the PFA happens weekly. i've said many times before my old man works at a very high level in football admin and has worked at several of the more prominent north west clubs and i know of at least 4 clubs in Lancashire who have had PFA loans (some multiple) within the last 3 years, none of which have been reported.

Injecting cash is also really easy in FFP terms, the only issue is that it has to be virtually gifted and not put in as loans, etc.

[JHRover]

11 minutes ago, Brian-Potter said:

Not posted on here for a long time but I've always kept up to date on what's on here.

The demise of our club under Venky's has been shocking, the lack of leadership, direction and communication is astounding and what they have done is disgusting, the work that Jack and to an extent the Walker Trust put in over 20 years to re-establish the club in the top flight has been undone in 5 years of incompetent ownership. 

However, some of the conspiracy's as to what's really going on do tend to enter the realms of fantasy. It's understandable though we as fans look at what's happens and cannot comprehend the way that they operate the club which makes us look for logical answers or reasons. The fact is they are not logical, nor are they everyday people like ourselves so trying to understand their motives and methods is not worth considering. We hear various rumours about their wealth but like it or not they have very deep pockets, what seems like horrendous amounts of money to us may well be a drop in the ocean to them. In addition, depending upon the ultimate structure of the Venkys group having a loss making entity like Rovers could be very "tax efficient"

I don't think there is anything in the rumours about administration looming, loans from the PFA to meet wages or any short term cash shortage. They are just rumours people come up with in an attempt to understand the shambles. If things of that nature were going on the news of suppliers, wages and other bills not being paid would be reported as this happens with most companies and clubs in financial difficulty. The fact that they are paying HMRC on time is another indicatIon that there are no cash problems on the horizon. Whilst HMRC can be ruthless when they do start chasing for non payment this is usually one of the creditors that insolvent companies build up large debts to.

Like us all, I wish Venkys would disappear but I don't think that will happen. Furthermore if they did sell us the new owner will still have the same problems, injecting your own capital into a club at our level is now very difficult without breaching FFP. I think all we would achieve is more sensible stewardship, the days of someone coming in with millions and sending us back to the prem are gone.

i don't know what the answer for the future is, I wish i did.

I agree with almost all of what you say, however I don't agree that injecting capital into a club in the Championship is difficult. The rules are a farce and the majority of clubs have overspent and got away with it.

Sheffield Wednesday just signed Rhodes for £10 million - Wolves just spent £13 million on one player - these are clubs with wealthy owners who want to invest, want to improve their clubs and want to get promoted - everything Venkys don't want to do.

I understand that they get bigger crowds than us and always will do in this league, but there's no way that larger crowds covers £10-15 million of transfer fees.

Venkys and their henchmen want us to believe they can't invest as it is an excuse rather than admit they've run out of money or don't want to invest. It's nonsense. Those owners with determination will find ways round it. Brighton have lost £20 odd million in the last accounts but carry on regardless.

[OJRovers]

FFP is a dead duck. Just look at the money being spent in the championship even by the clubs without parachute payments. 

[Dunnfc]

Someone mentioned this quote being funny a few pages back, just found it.

Quote

My thoughts on that are the fans are very passionate and want the best for the football club, as do the owners as well. The owners have made a significant investment, to make sure this club stays financially solvable.  The owners put in £10million a year in addition to what revenues the club brings in to keep it afloat and to prevent it from going in to administration which would be a vulnerable position.

 

[tomphil]

Just cleverly worded by Senior playing on the opinions of some fans who continue to say at least they are paying the bills. Fact is c40 million has come in last 2 years from sales and add ons alone. That money has disappeared so it's either that paying the bills and keeping us from admin or it's the owners and that income has gone somewhere/somebody else.

It's one or the other surely otherwise we'd be in a good stable position by now with all that combined as well as the cuts right ??

Can't have it both ways Mr Senior.

[Brian-Potter]

With regards to clubs taking loans from the PFA I couldn't comment as I don't have knowledge on that side of things. My experience is in the management of investment companies and trust administration.

Simply "gifting" sums of money to any business, football clubs included is not that simple. There are restrictions around how money can be invested and in what form. By far the simplest method for any shareholder / investment co is put the money is as a loan with not pre-defined repayment terms or dates attached. Sometime in the future it is then possible to write off the loans or convert it to equity which although still subject to restrictions is easier than simplify gifting the money via share capital or other means. It is not advisable for any business to raise cash on a regular basis by issuing share capital.

With regards to FFP I agree that in its current form it doesn't work and can't be implemented to effectively target what it was set out to do. However, it will return in a remodelled form albeit one that again will not work. Looking at the Derby, Sheff Weds etc I agree that their higher gates and marketing revenue do not equate to the money they are spending, it may go some way to covering it if the purchases are being paid by instalments (as most are). However, for me these clubs are simply taking a massive gamble on achieving PL status, the increased revenue from acheiving this would offset the intitial investment. The problem with this is that it really is a ticking time bomb, there is a time limit before this outside investment will "catch up" with them and they will face sanctions as a result. It's similar to what happened at rovers albeit in a lot more disjointed way, our FFP was due to over investment from outside sources in previous years. The difference was we had no return on this investment on the pitch or off it in terms of income.

I will have a look at the accounts again with regards to the loans etc as I would need to read both Rovers and VLL accounts to try to decipher what is coming from where and to whom.

 

 

 

 

[JHRover]

http://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/bolton-wanderers-efl-sky-bet-league-one-macron-stadium-3565846.aspx

Interesting events unfolding at our near neighbours....

[Boz]

Only £140k net liabilities? Only playing at it! 

We was glad to have the price of a cup o' tea. Cold tea at that.

[1arC]

Looks like BWFC have been shafted again, but no real surprise there. Dean wasn't the knight in shining armour after all!

[tomphil]

I reckon they got hold of it with the intention of punting it on to some wealthy foreigners but it hasn't worked out yet.

Should've given Jerome a ring 

[JBiz]

Just now, tomphil said:

I reckon they got hold of it with the intention of punting it on to some wealthy foreigners but it hasn't worked out yet.

Should've given Jerome a ring 

Holdsworths intentions laid bare;

"I find it very interesting that Dean should comment about 'prior approval of the board issues', as he personally and solely signed the loan agreement, on behalf of his company Sports Shield and also as a director, on behalf of the club (i.e. he signed solely, on behalf of both parties)  without my prior authorisation, or knowledge of the agreement, with no board meeting having ever taken  place, or anything  being minuted"

Football is jam packed full of those wanting to make a quick buck. Even on a "carcass" which is all that's left of Bolton!

Sickening if true. 

 

[tomphil]

If the game was run properly then all these signing of documents/loans etc should have FA approval. An FA official to witness them as well might stop this 'signing on behalf of' nonsense. You just couldn't get away with this stuff in real life or most business.

[Claytons Left Boot]

33 minutes ago, JHRover said:

http://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/bolton-wanderers-efl-sky-bet-league-one-macron-stadium-3565846.aspx

Interesting events unfolding at our near neighbours....

Wherever there is a quick buck to be made for little effort, football or in any other walk of life, low life, parasitic scumbags inevitably appear. When you read reports like the BWFC one, it's amazing how often words like 'liquidation', 'fraud' and 'jail' appear time and time again. As if we didn't already know, football is rotten to the core. If ever there was a model to follow, it's the German one. Lock, stock and barrel. Unfortunately the fat, old Gentlemens Clubs of the PL and FA don't want their boats rocking and nothing will change.

[TBTF]

On ‎01‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 5:32 PM, Brian-Potter said:

With regards to clubs taking loans from the PFA I couldn't comment as I don't have knowledge on that side of things. My experience is in the management of investment companies and trust administration.

Simply "gifting" sums of money to any business, football clubs included is not that simple. There are restrictions around how money can be invested and in what form. By far the simplest method for any shareholder / investment co is put the money is as a loan with not pre-defined repayment terms or dates attached. Sometime in the future it is then possible to write off the loans or convert it to equity which although still subject to restrictions is easier than simplify gifting the money via share capital or other means. It is not advisable for any business to raise cash on a regular basis by issuing share capital.

With regards to FFP I agree that in its current form it doesn't work and can't be implemented to effectively target what it was set out to do. However, it will return in a remodelled form albeit one that again will not work. Looking at the Derby, Sheff Weds etc I agree that their higher gates and marketing revenue do not equate to the money they are spending, it may go some way to covering it if the purchases are being paid by instalments (as most are). However, for me these clubs are simply taking a massive gamble on achieving PL status, the increased revenue from acheiving this would offset the intitial investment. The problem with this is that it really is a ticking time bomb, there is a time limit before this outside investment will "catch up" with them and they will face sanctions as a result. It's similar to what happened at rovers albeit in a lot more disjointed way, our FFP was due to over investment from outside sources in previous years. The difference was we had no return on this investment on the pitch or off it in terms of income.

I will have a look at the accounts again with regards to the loans etc as I would need to read both Rovers and VLL accounts to try to decipher what is coming from where and to whom.

 

 

 

 

I got told (so true or not I couldn't say) that the loan in question is external and not PFA. Normally when a player is sold the buying club doesn't pay all at once and so the seller factors the proceeds . So it gets borrowed against the remaining instalemnts coming from the buying club. Suspect its Rhodes money from Boro . the way it was explained to me was that Boro might pay say £2million of the £10m transfer fee up front and the rest over 2 or 3 years. So Rovers borrow most of the £8m that's due so in effect they do get it all up front.

Not sure if I have explained it too well as I am not an expert and this is what I got explained to me.

 

What puzzled me about it was that if Venkys have such deep pockets why they would borrow at such high rates of interest??  And to be honest Brian , they might well be loaded but not spending anything in the transfer window when we are in serious trouble makes no sense.

 

I would gladly go back to the end of your first post and take that ''sensible stewardship'' in a blinking heartbeat over this effing shambles 

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, TBTF said:

I got told (so true or not I couldn't say) that the loan in question is external and not PFA. Normally when a player is sold the buying club doesn't pay all at once and so the seller factors the proceeds . So it gets borrowed against the remaining instalemnts coming from the buying club. Suspect its Rhodes money from Boro . the way it was explained to me was that Boro might pay say £2million of the £10m transfer fee up front and the rest over 2 or 3 years. So Rovers borrow most of the £8m that's due so in effect they do get it all up front.

Not sure if I have explained it too well as I am not an expert and this is what I got explained to me.

 

What puzzled me about it was that if Venkys have such deep pockets why they would borrow at such high rates of interest??  And to be honest Brian , they might well be loaded but not spending anything in the transfer window when we are in serious trouble makes no sense.

 

I would gladly go back to the end of your first post and take that ''sensible stewardship'' in a blinking heartbeat over this effing shambles 

Borrowed in advance against parachute money to run the club now borrowing against future income from players sales. Venkys are paying the bills though !!!!!

[McClarky]

4 hours ago, JHRover said:

http://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/bolton-wanderers-efl-sky-bet-league-one-macron-stadium-3565846.aspx

Interesting events unfolding at our near neighbours....

What a nightmare.  When I hear people saying all our problems would be solved if someone came in and bought Vs out I cringe.  Once you are on this slippy slope there is no way back, there are no knights in shining armour.  All it takes is a familiar face and a Rovers scarf for everyone to start thinking that the good times are around the corner again.  Let's face it, the only people interested in getting involved in clubs like Rovers and Bolton and people who think they can make a quick buck out of it before the club sinks.  it was the same with Rangers up here.

Without a real commitment to fan ownership, at whatever level it needs to be at, I can't see any future for either of these clubs. 

[Dunnfc]

1 hour ago, TBTF said:

I got told (so true or not I couldn't say) that the loan in question is external and not PFA. Normally when a player is sold the buying club doesn't pay all at once and so the seller factors the proceeds . So it gets borrowed against the remaining instalemnts coming from the buying club. Suspect its Rhodes money from Boro . the way it was explained to me was that Boro might pay say £2million of the £10m transfer fee up front and the rest over 2 or 3 years. So Rovers borrow most of the £8m that's due so in effect they do get it all up front.

Not sure if I have explained it too well as I am not an expert and this is what I got explained to me.

 

What puzzled me about it was that if Venkys have such deep pockets why they would borrow at such high rates of interest??  And to be honest Brian , they might well be loaded but not spending anything in the transfer window when we are in serious trouble makes no sense.

 

I would gladly go back to the end of your first post and take that ''sensible stewardship'' in a blinking heartbeat over this effing shambles 

 

There are two seperate short term loans... one at 9.5% interest via the FA for 5million and one at 14% for 4.5million from unknown sources.