[Archived] Venkys London Ltd Accounts

[47er]

The issue surely is about the use to which the land is put? If it's restricted to its current use doesn't that merely prevent developers swarming all over it and using it for, say, housing?

It would not stop Burnley buying it and continuing to use it for its existing purpose or have I got this wrong?

That would obviously be the ultimate betrayal of Jack's legacy and could well amuse Venkys.

[bob fleming]

The issue surely is about the use to which the land is put? If it's restricted to its current use doesn't that merely prevent developers swarming all over it and using it for, say, housing?

It would not stop Burnley buying it and continuing to use it for its existing purpose or have I got this wrong?

That would obviously be the ultimate betrayal of Jack's legacy and could well amuse Venkys.

They could do that, apart from the fact that that lot are already developing their own training ground. Fact is it would be worth millions more if they could sell it for housing. That doesn't appear to be possible though.

[MGAndy]

The issue surely is about the use to which the land is put? If it's restricted to its current use doesn't that merely prevent developers swarming all over it and using it for, say, housing?

It would not stop Burnley buying it and continuing to use it for its existing purpose or have I got this wrong?

That would obviously be the ultimate betrayal of Jack's legacy and could well amuse Venkys.

correct but unlikely

didnt they just do up their own training facility

[yoda]

How do the Bank of India think they'll get their money back?

The assets of Blackburn Rovers? Er, erm, Ben Marshall and er.... ? After that, what exactly? Remember, I'm sure we all do, we're talking £130m here! Covered by assets of the club?? I'd suggest that someone at the BoI is going to be somewhat shocked if that really is the case.

We keep, hearing / reading that it's secured against land that Barry owns. Let's hope that is the case. I mean that must be the case right? No one at the BoI is that dumb are they? "Yes, Jason Steele, he's worth £12m, Jason Lowe, young player, Captain, £35m. In fact anyone called Jason is worth a fortune. Don't worry"

Is the £130 million you are referring to the paid up shares ?

[tomphil]

I'm told hidden large debts are quite easy to cover over in large company accounts for a while at least. Not that i'm saying that's the case here.

I'll never be convinced money doesn't run right through this set up for a reason iv'e suspected it for 5 years. Not saying it's illegal money but maybe the set up is being used to fund something else who knows, other businesses or family this side of the world or even other football investment funds/agencies over here. Considering who they were in bed with at the start.

[47er]

correct but unlikely

didnt they just do up their own training facility

True but my main point stands----Brockhall could be sold to any club/association providing its use didn't change.

From that point of view it's not safe in Rovers hands forever.

[BrisRover]

Even after everything that's happened after the last six years reading this thread has made me thoroughly depressed. Anger is not a sufficient word to be used when describing how I feel about what has been done to this club. I started following Rovers in the 94-95 season as I was a striker by trade in my playing days and was memorized by Shearer. You could call me a band wagoner but i grew up following Serie A due to my Italian heritage and a born and bred supporter of AC Milan but there was something about Rovers being a small town club taking it to the big boys that sucked me in.

I have never been to Blackburn or even England but have been an avid supporter of Rovers ever since, riding the highs and lows of relegation, promotions, cup runs etc. Buying shirts from the club shop and wearing it, spreading the word of this great club to lesser educated footballing folk here in Australia was something i took pride in. Now, when asked who i support and respond with Rovers i find myself saying it with sadness. I barely get to watch them anymore and have stopped purchasing merchandise etc as my form of protest from afar.

It just makes me sick that the league's governing body could not only allow this to happen but continue to allow this to happen. These parasites are sucking the life out of club and there is basically nothing we can do to stop them. I'm proud of the people like Glen Mullan, Madon, amongst many others for sparing their valuable time to fight the good fight as well as others that are boycotting but turning up for protests etc. The protests may or may not achieve much but at the very least it brings Rovers supporters together in a sign of unity that basically says we may not be able to do anything at this point but you (the owners and anyone linked with them) are not one of us and we will be here long after you leave. For the people who don't protest fair enough I get it, from my position I have the comfort to know you will still be there after these scum leave.

Anyway sorry about the long winded post but as mentioned above i had an overwhelming wave of depression reading this thread and thought by typing out my thoughts i may feel a little better. Sadly it hasn't really helped.

RTID

[Dunnfc]

Even after everything that's happened after the last six years reading this thread has made me thoroughly depressed. Anger is not a sufficient word to be used when describing how I feel about what has been done to this club. I started following Rovers in the 94-95 season as I was a striker by trade in my playing days and was memorized by Shearer. You could call me a band wagoner but i grew up following Serie A due to my Italian heritage and a born and bred supporter of AC Milan but there was something about Rovers being a small town club taking it to the big boys that sucked me in.

I have never been to Blackburn or even England but have been an avid supporter of Rovers ever since, riding the highs and lows of relegation, promotions, cup runs etc. Buying shirts from the club shop and wearing it, spreading the word of this great club to lesser educated footballing folk here in Australia was something i took pride in. Now, when asked who i support and respond with Rovers i find myself saying it with sadness. I barely get to watch them anymore and have stopped purchasing merchandise etc as my form of protest from afar.

It just makes me sick that the league's governing body could not only allow this to happen but continue to allow this to happen. These parasites are sucking the life out of club and there is basically nothing we can do to stop them. I'm proud of the people like Glen Mullan, Madon, amongst many others for sparing their valuable time to fight the good fight as well as others that are boycotting but turning up for protests etc. The protests may or may not achieve much but at the very least it brings Rovers supporters together in a sign of unity that basically says we may not be able to do anything at this point but you (the owners and anyone linked with them) are not one of us and we will be here long after you leave. For the people who don't protest fair enough I get it, from my position I have the comfort to know you will still be there after these scum leave.

Anyway sorry about the long winded post but as mentioned above i had an overwhelming wave of depression reading this thread and thought by typing out my thoughts i may feel a little better. Sadly it hasn't really helped.

RTID

All i've got to say is the fight will go on! Well constructed post from overseas! No matter how many games you watch at Ewood or how little your voice is, it's thought what matters!

Once backers achieved and in place prior to March (They all know) we will be fine, front out the tough times but it's better than the S.rubbish we have now! Proper people running it, proper club, ability to re-build free from the guise of attempted propoganda. It will be tough but we need the spirit to get us on our feet!

Ian's (Seneca) I know are good people, plus I'll help the club and continue to do so in any way via contacts advice! Think I'm on record in saying i will help in commercial and finance on a freelance and almost freebie basis.

Saying this though. The biggest creditor to exit any possible admin process will be VLL making a CVA impossible as you imagine, in which it's why so imperative to gear up as a newco, so VLL's claim get liquidated and there return as zero buried with the oldco and we start again afresh debt free whilst contesting the same route as Leeds took.

Why? Because no purchaser will aquire the VLL debt and there claim which isn't fixed. VLL go into admin the administrators and FA are lumbered with the golden share, in comes Seneca with a newco "BRFC 2017" in offer to buy the golden share and inherit FL debts only.

[bob fleming]

Is the £130 million you are referring to the paid up shares ?

Yes. Is that not debt then?

[Lancaster Rover]

A newco would mean starting again from scratch in the lowest reaches of football, whilst there is so much division within the fanbase I don't see this being a viable option.

[Dunnfc]

Not quite true LR

Both Leeds and Luton have failed to exit administration via CVA, Leeds encountered a 15 point penalty for breaching the FL rules which state all football administrations must be exited via CVA. To make BRFC therefore start right at the bottom would be going against president.

Will explain in greater detail later as a CVA was agreed with Leeds until HMRC objected hence the requirement of a newco in a pre pack admin sale.

[chaddyrovers]

Would the FL let Rovers be newco tho? What is a golden share?

Is Adminstration a real possible?

Cos I just dont see Venkys putting anything into adminstration due to them always likely the power and being in charge. Cant even appoint a proper CEO.

I really hope Battersby/Currie do buy the club from Adminstration if we are there.

I do feel/think within the next 18 months Venkys will be gone as owners. If I wrong then I'm wrong.

[47er]

A newco would mean starting again from scratch in the lowest reaches of football, whilst there is so much division within the fanbase I don't see this being a viable option.

A newco would be a last resort. By definition here would be no alternative other than death. I can't believe fans could continue to support this cruel ghost of a club we have now but plump for death when we have at least the chance of resurrection.

But no doubt someone will come along to prove me wrong.

In the end if every fan can't be won over then I suppose we'll have to wee with the willy we've got or wither away.

[Dunnfc]

Would the FL let Rovers be newco tho? What is a golden share?

Is Adminstration a real possible?

Cos I just dont see Venkys putting anything into adminstration due to them always likely the power and being in charge. Cant even appoint a proper CEO.

I really hope Battersby/Currie do buy the club from Adminstration if we are there.

I do feel/think within the next 18 months Venkys will be gone as owners. If I wrong then I'm wrong.

The FL may not have s choice, strictly speaking it's the football league rules to exit admin via a CVA. Not liquidation and pre pack to a newco but it has been done before as cited. The golden share is the football share in which the FL rights are held currently VLL.

Of course it's possible the club is technically without extension of borrowing facilities or director loans insolvent.

They might not have a choice of the bank don't renew credit facilities in March as previously suggested and detailed in the account qualifications.

[Dunnfc]

Would the FL let Rovers be newco tho? What is a golden share?

Is Adminstration a real possible?

Cos I just dont see Venkys putting anything into adminstration due to them always likely the power and being in charge. Cant even appoint a proper CEO.

I really hope Battersby/Currie do buy the club from Adminstration if we are there.

I do feel/think within the next 18 months Venkys will be gone as owners. If I wrong then I'm wrong.

The FL may not have s choice, strictly speaking it's the football league rules to exit admin via a CVA. Not liquidation and pre pack to a newco but it has been done before as cited. The golden share is the football share in which the FL rights are held currently VLL.

Of course it's possible the club is technically without extension of borrowing facilities or director loans insolvent.

They might not have a choice of the bank don't renew credit facilities in March as previously suggested and detailed in the account qualifications.

[chaddyrovers]

The FL may not have s choice, strictly speaking it's the football league rules to exit admin via a CVA. Not liquidation and pre pack to a newco but it has been done before as cited. The golden share is the football share in which the FL rights are held currently VLL.

Of course it's possible the club is technically without extension of borrowing facilities or director loans insolvent.

They might not have a choice of the bank don't renew credit facilities in March as previously suggested and detailed in the account qualifications.

Ok thanks Dunnfc.

Did you know Battersby/Currie well? Work with them through your company?

[Glosrover]

Living in the area I know just how much Ribble Valley Council love giving planning permission for houses, I'd not hold out too much hope of them backing us over getting income from the land from properties! Many a Burnley fan over here too!

that doesnt overturn a restrictive covenant -

the issue of planning permission is merely an authorisation of a development subject to there being no other legal obstacles. so for example I could obtain permission to build in your garden, but as I dont own your garden, I wouldnt have the right to execute the permission without your consent.

The issue may well come down to whoever is the benficiary of the restrictive covenant on Brockhall. I recall it was said on here that it might be the Walker Trust, and if it is in their sole name, then no-one else can invoke the terms of the covenant. They may decide that there is a value to them in releasing the restriction and taking a share in any development revenue. I dont think the covenant by itself is a protection unless it is vested in several parties.

[Dunnfc]

Dunnfc, you seem pretty nailed-on about administration coming in March.

Is that truly your reading of it?

I'm looking at it from the point we are up to our necks in 120 million plus of debt. Sooner or later the bank or Venkys are going to want to get shut. We lost 23 million before players sales this year so how is that going to be achieved in 2017 with the squad we have now? The accounts confirm credit facilities as expiring in March 17, it's possible that these might not be extended unless further assets are offered as security or Venkys guarantees etc. Certainly something to keep a keen eye on given papers must be lodged of any appointment in March which has the potential if we are cut adrift

Whilst Venkys have committed to funding the next 12 months it's nothing legally binding and the lack of converting debt to equity (shares) would possibly be viewed as not wanting to pour good after bad given in the event of a possible admin they'd rank the lowest as a unsecured creditor in respect of the shares.

I must make it clear that admin is solely my gut feeling only, by pointing out the process of administration potentially happening I'm trying to highlight the fact that it wouldn't nessecerilly mean the death of the club and there are ways of surviving.

I actually wrote a thesis on football administrations so take what I say with a pinch of salt 😂

I think the accounts make grim reading but they covering a period of 10-22 months ago! We all know wage cuts have taken place but 22 million of turnover and an interest of 1.4 million, it's not going to get better given turnover will drop again if relegated

[tomphil]

Perhaps the bizarre so called increase in squad value has an effect on the bank facility. Book value and borrowing against assets and all that. Or maybe that's why the land at Brockhall etc was being sniffed around a while back to possibly borrow against.

[OJRovers]

From the VLL accounts just signed:

"The company (VLL) has no concerns over the going concern status of its subsidiary (BRFC) and considers it inappropriate to recognise any discounts to the value of its loans (the £85m). Taking into consideration the realisable value of the subsidiary's assets, dinumition of the Company's investment is consdered temporary in nature and hence the Company considers no provision is necessary."

In plain engllish:

Venkys London haven't written off the £85m loan or £30m investment in BRFC because they believe that they can get the money back from selling BRFC's assets even in the event that it discontinues trading.

The only realisable assets are players, land and buildings.

Players were sold for £10m in summer 2016, leaving maybe £5m left at a push.

To cover the rest of the £120m they must be referring to the value of Brockhall and Ewood. Maybe this is why there was a rumoured valuation of Brockhall taking place?

To me it looks like the end game is approaching. No more cash from India + no more players to sell = big trouble.

[Dunnfc]

Perhaps the bizarre so called increase in squad value has an effect on the bank facility. Book value and borrowing against assets and all that. Or maybe that's why the land at Brockhall etc was being sniffed around a while back to possibly borrow against.

To be fair I think the bank facility has been renewed certainly yearly over the Venkys ownership. Given cash flows submitted its going to show quite a decrease in turnover which is why I'm nervous the rug could possibly be pulled especially the brokhole rumours, venketash rumoured to flog some shares and Desai leaving the board.

[1arC]

I have read right through this thread and even though I have a financial background, do find some of the posts a bit confusing. One big think that occurs to me, is the possibility of the club folding and having to start again, from the lowest tier. If that did happen (and I pray I won't) there are going to be a lot of people with a lot of questions to answer.

As we are all aware on here, the fans for starters, almost from the very start have been asking why Venky's, Anderson, Kean, the FA the football league ETC have been able to get away with what they have? It may be naïve, but with so much evidence, already out there, I can't see how certain individuals and organisation, could possibly allow that to happen. There would be such a huge enquiry that wrong doing is bound to come out and I am certain some of it would be so serious the custodial sentences, would surely be dished out.

[Dunnfc]

1arC what's your assessment of things from reading the accounts?

Be good if Phillip and Dan also get chance to have a look. You accountants will make much more sense of it all!

[1arC]

1arC what's your assessment of things from reading the accounts?

Be good if Phillip and Dan also get chance to have a look. You accountants will make much more sense of it all!

I am not an accountant mate, I am a financial adviser, mainly dealing with Mortgages. I am used to looking at accounts for small Limited companies, but wouldn't like to say, I am an expert and certainly not on football clubs accounts. Things like amortisation for example, when it come to football clubs, leaves me baffled. I have only skimmed though them so far, but will have a proper look and pass comment. I think Mercer Man is the guy on here who has made most sense with accounts in the past, so perhaps his posting is the one to look out for. I am sure he will be making one about them soon.

[Lancaster Rover]

Looking at them from a business consultant (change management and processes) with a degree of financial understanding point of view I can't see anything other than we're f*cked in the long term and fairly f*cked in the short term.