[Archived] Venkys London Ltd Accounts

[MCMC1875]

#VenkysOut

[Dunnfc]

Going to have to leave this thread alone I think!

More and more I delve into the accounts the more I am horrified.

So 14,000 attendance constitutes 15%-20% of turnover. Given we barely muster 10,000 this year you can see the turnover and income ever shrinking and with limited players to sell next year the gap becoming even more in the losses and break even point.

Who said the boycotters have no impact and protests etc? It's there in black (blue) and white.

[tomphil]

We did say this set would be the most heavily massaged yet. Didn't expect the paper to rub their oil into it as well. @#/? fuming !!!

[den]

Not all on the LT comments section fall for it, but some do.

[ABBEY]

Going to have to leave this thread alone I think!

More and more I delve into the accounts the more I am horrified.

So 14,000 attendance constitutes 15%-20% of turnover. Given we barely muster 10,000 this year you can see the turnover and income ever shrinking and with limited players to sell next year the gap becoming even more in the losses and break even point.

Who said the boycotters have no impact and protests etc? It's there in black (blue) and white.

#donttellchaddy he don't think protests are any good

We did say this set would be the most heavily massaged yet. Didn't expect the paper to rub their oil into it as well. @#/? fuming !!!

why? been known as the venkygraph for ages

[tomphil]

I hope they realise they are staring at the future and it will go on for years. What the hell is wrong with some people when they still fall for Venkys paying the bills rubbish. Some idiots STILL think they are going to invest next season or so............

They are basically acting as nothing more than guarantors whilst gradually liquidizing assets and debt under pins the show !

Like i said it'll take years to get out of this mess but to be honest we won't because they just keep adding to it hiring and firing crap managers and coaching staffs and throwing contracts at pointless old players.

[onlyonejackwalker]

As JH says from a marketing / commercial perspective we simply don't function. Weekly and matchday lotteries, perimiter board advertising, concourse advertising, match tickets, ground, match, shirt, player sponsorships, corporate hospitality etc. Having worked in these departments in football i can safely say we badly underperform in these areas and no coherent strategy exists to reverse the slide.

[Iceman]

The total debt of 100mill plus is the key factor still. You can clear away year on year things such as reducing wages to that of the previous year, or other expenses which might have accrued over a period of time, however, the overall debt that remains is the one that should be looked at. Reducing wages by selling high earners, and bringing in low earners is easy and simple enough. In fact, you can sell Marshall, and bring in an academy kid, and you will save on wages. Its the losses that the club makes on fans who regularly bought season tickets, where the club now have lost that income.

Fans should be very careful when the read these things, and assume things are looking better, when its not. The total debt the club still has hanging over its head is debt which could be leveraged against assets, and those losses would break the club, rather than player sales or staff turnover. If the club wanted to improve the overall debt, the plan should have been to engage with fans and ensuring that more people entered the ground, rather than walking away. These accounts merely paper over the cracks that still exist from a financial point of view

[RoverCanada]

Without the sales of Gestede and Rhodes, we would have lost £38m.

Brutal figures.

...? Think you're adding sales twice there! Operating loss was £18.8M, plus interest payments of £1.3M, so £20.1M. Player trading then brought the loss down to £2.8M.

Excluding the £8M in exceptional items from 2015, turnover was down from £24M to £21.8M, wages down from £30.9M to £28.2M, other operating expenses (excluding 2015's exceptional items) down from £13.8M to £12.4M. Interest payments were up £0.3M (seems they're concentrating on paying off that high interest loan, so these payments may start to fall?). That nets out to a £1.6M improvement in operating losses.

Other operating expenses will probably fall a bit more, but the two key figures to watch are turnover, particularly how much media income we're still getting, and wages. Both should continue to fall; I'd spitball wages as being another £5M lower this year (taking out Rhodes, Best, Olsson, Hanley, Duffy, Kilgallon, Brown, etc., adding in Graham, Stokes, Williams, Bennett, Ward, loans, etc.)

I'd guess the Hanley and Duffy sales get us over the hump for this year, giving more time for wages to fall to the mid-high teens, which is pretty typical for low-revenue Championship clubs (assuming we stay in this league!). Once that happens, as JHRover says above, we'd be in a pretty typical situation for most Championship clubs who are not receiving parachute payments: steady money-losers but not the catastrophic losses of the past few seasons. I wonder if the likes of Birmingham and Ipswich also pay lip service in their accounts to promotion being the goal when we all know that's more of a pipe dream. Hence wondering what Venky's end game is here... conspire away!

All that aside, there's the obvious issue of how the overall debt is being managed. Perhaps the plug will be pulled in March, but that's anyone's guess. It'd be pretty incredible for the club to release accounts that are confidant about the club's continued financing in January and then two months later we're insolvent. I suppose nothing should surprise us, but count me in with JHRover thinking this is still business-as-usual, though Mercerman did have a good spot about that debt now being listed as due within the year, so March will be an interesting month regardless...

[Neal]

It's simple... Do not give them a penny more. Wash your hands of their corruption, show them they do not deserve your support. I physically cannot support the club under the ownership of clowns like Belaji Rao. Despite their inherited fortune I refuse to give these people an important role to play in my life, I won't let my feelings be controlled by some cretins playing out their own real life version of football manager... I'm way above that. Instead, i'll choose to laugh at their failings from now on, afterall... You're supposed to laugh at clowns.

[chaddyrovers]

#donttellchaddy he don't think protests are any good

Just cant help having a go at me can you? Its like having a personal stalker.

I have given my views on it. You just dont like it cos it different to yours.

[tomphil]

If billionaires millionaire Venkys are funding the club then why have these high interest loans been creeping in over the past few years ? Surely no need to add to the costs......

[tomphil]

...? Think you're adding sales twice there! Operating loss was £18.8M, plus interest payments of £1.3M, so £20.1M. Player trading then brought the loss down to £2.8M.

Excluding the £8M in exceptional items from 2015, turnover was down from £24M to £21.8M, wages down from £30.9M to £28.2M, other operating expenses (excluding 2015's exceptional items) down from £13.8M to £12.4M. Interest payments were up £0.3M (seems they're concentrating on paying off that high interest loan, so these payments may start to fall?). That nets out to a £1.6M improvement in operating losses.

Other operating expenses will probably fall a bit more, but the two key figures to watch are turnover, particularly how much media income we're still getting, and wages. Both should continue to fall; I'd spitball wages as being another £5M lower this year (taking out Rhodes, Best, Olsson, Hanley, Duffy, Kilgallon, Brown, etc., adding in Graham, Stokes, Williams, Bennett, Ward, loans, etc.)

I'd guess the Hanley and Duffy sales get us over the hump for this year, giving more time for wages to fall to the mid-high teens, which is pretty typical for low-revenue Championship clubs (assuming we stay in this league!). Once that happens, as JHRover says above, we'd be in a pretty typical situation for most Championship clubs who are not receiving parachute payments: steady money-losers but not the catastrophic losses of the past few seasons. I wonder if the likes of Birmingham and Ipswich also pay lip service in their accounts to promotion being the goal when we all know that's more of a pipe dream. Hence wondering what Venky's end game is here... conspire away!

All that aside, there's the obvious issue of how the overall debt is being managed. Perhaps the plug will be pulled in March, but that's anyone's guess. It'd be pretty incredible for the club to release accounts that are confidant about the club's continued financing in January and then two months later we're insolvent. I suppose nothing should surprise us, but count me in with JHRover thinking this is still business-as-usual, though Mercerman did have a good spot about that debt now being listed as due within the year, so March will be an interesting month regardless...

With that debt due in March maybe this is the time they'll write it off ????

Wishful thinking of course but if the other figures on wage reduction and loss reduction are near as you speculate and maybe external debt lower then wouldn't writing off their debt put the club in perfect shape to sell (please god)

Lets face it as you say the income and turnover is going to take another huge hit and it will continue to do so under this regime it's broken beyond repair and has been for years. It'll never improve under Venkys and that's something they should finally accept and face up to.

[ABBEY]

It's simple... Do not give them a penny more. Wash your hands of their corruption, show them they do not deserve your support. I physically cannot support the club under the ownership of clowns like Belaji Rao. Despite their inherited fortune I refuse to give these people an important role to play in my life, I won't let my feelings be controlled by some cretins playing out their own real life version of football manager... I'm way above that. Instead, i'll choose to laugh at their failings from now on, afterall... You're supposed to laugh at clowns.

Blue kiwi won't like this post

[Dunnfc]

2nd loan seems fishy with the 14% interest charges. I'd like to know more about this tbh.

Doesn't appear to be to dissimilar to the company Bolton used in 2015 but will dig it out - *Got it it's called Nucleas - http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/13629649.Whites_confirm_funding_deal/ & http://www.business-money.com/announcements/nucleaus-provides-3-5m-funding-facility-for-boloton-wanderers-football-club

Plenty of companies like that including close finance who work in the football circles and supply loans and such rates to bridge monies issues, short term.

Maybe BRAG could find out who owns the second loan? If it was the same provider (SBOI) then usually they pay off the first loan and give you a new one.

[tomphil]

Which would explain the need to ship a player out quick ala Cairney when one of these short term high interest arrangements needs squaring off. Imagine the penalties on them.

Still the question remains why they should need to do that with such wealthy owners. Surely one of them could bung it in even if they take it back quick with a bit of interest.

It's all an absolute mirage.

[Dunnfc]

Which would explain the need to ship a player out quick ala Cairney when one of these short term high interest arrangements needs squaring off. Imagine the penalties on them.

Still the question remains why they should need to do that with such wealthy owners. Surely one of them could bung it in even if they take it back quick with a bit of interest.

It's all an absolute mirage.

Given there is no transparency as far as I can see identifying the party who loaned the money, I would suggest it's a question worth asking where it came from exactly? The qualifications obviously state Indian bank facilities and director loans however as mentioned if your taking out a second loan from the same institution then usually they pay the first loan off and give you new terms for the existing and extra over needed. If it was Venky's then 14% is far higher than even Bolton paid "Moonshift" (5%).

Especially when re-payment constitutes in relation to club turnover quite a percentage of expenditure.

[Lancaster Rover]

Nice little earner for the BOI, no wonder they are such good pals with Venky's.

[tomphil]

More concerning if these short term fixes aren't from a V's source but lending funds instead. Although they could be the key to bring it down, default on them as with most external borrowing could be the road to admin.

If they are taking these short term fixes to plug gaps then paying them off with sales that'll be hitting the buffers soon. What then ?

Mind you it's probably Akon lending it after VLL invested 3.5 mill into him. Nice way for the big guy to look after a pal !

[Dunnfc]

More concerning if these short term fixes aren't from a V's source but lending funds instead. Although they could be the key to bring it down, default on them as with most external borrowing could be the road to admin.

If they are taking these short term fixes to plug gaps then paying them off with sales that'll be hitting the buffers soon. What then ?

Mind you it's probably Akon lending it after VLL invested 3.5 mill into him. Nice way for the big guy to look after a pal !

Not sure on the securities side i.e. what you'd have to offer up to protect the loan in case of default which is why I'm not 100% that it's coming from one of these short term fixer types, although it would seem to fit.

Usually and like Bolton, Rangers etc did was that they granted them a debenture or fixed charge against something like a car park etc.

[Lancaster Rover]

So we are basically operating in the pay day loan end of the market.

[1arC]

I'm Chartered - good enough for you ?

Yes I was already aware of that and your summary is excellent. I know you said you had only skimmed through and if you do have the time a more detailed analysis would be brilliant. I for one appreciate your input and I am sure others do too.

[onlyonejackwalker]

Yes I was already aware of that and your summary is excellent. I know you said you had only skimmed through and if you do have the time a more detailed analysis would be brilliant. I for one appreciate your input and I am sure others do too.

Seconded. I have a working knowledge of company accounts but only at SME level. Good to hear greater input and detail.

[den]

...? Think you're adding sales twice there! Operating loss was £18.8M, plus interest payments of £1.3M, so £20.1M. Player trading then brought the loss down to £2.8M.

Yep, my mistake.

[Lancaster Rover]

So the executive summary is we are selling players to fund day to day expenditure, coupled with rapidly declining turnover and a reliance on short term 'emergency' finance in the same way as pillars of financial prudence Bolton and the Huns. Oh well, all is rosey then.