[Archived] Burton away - Friday 24 Feb - 6 pointer

[Mercer]

25 minutes ago, broadsword said:

Give yours a wobble. 

 

We've been bottom three more or less all season, ship goals for fun, and may be the least fit side in the division. 

Do you believe what you write - YES, or do you just need the attention - NO. Unbelievable 

Look it's simple.

I think this is a bang average league with no outstanding teams borne out by the fact that Rovers have done the double over top of the table Newcastle!  Compare to the Premier League, where I would say there's not a snowball's chance in hell of bottom club Sunderland doing the double over top club Chelsea.  

We have some decent players and any half decent manager should be able to organise and get enough out of these players to average 1.5 points a game which would take us to safety with a bit to spare.

I am able to rationalise all my comments, as the above.  Simple as that.

 

[Parsonblue]

Just now, Stuart said:

Ducked as always. Answer the question.

But, to answer yours: at this stage of the season, and in our situation, I can judge him by not getting 3 vital points.

The guy, like any new manager, will take time to put his stamp on the team Stuart - that's a fact of life.  Nobody is going to come into this club and wave a magic wand and turn everything around instantly.  It will take time to get his ideas across to the players but there was plenty of evidence last night that the players are willing to take on board a fresh approach.  Have we left it too late to make the change - I think we may well have.  I've said all season that I believe survival is vital for the club and still believe that but I'm enough of a realist to know that Mowbray has been given a mountain to climb by the last manager.  This may well go down to the last game but we need to start winning.  However, I'm not going to judge a guy on 90 minutes when for 70 of them we totally dominated the play but lacked that cutting edge.  I'm more than happy to give him time to address those problems.

[duggy9197]

What is the usual points total that sees teams safe,48pts?

[broadsword]

Yes, I'm sure you can rationalise it. 

To get ourselves out of this mess requires a step change in form. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's no formality. 

It's pretty simple from my viewpoint as well. If we are to get our off it, it needs a large slice of luck, key players to stay fit, fitness to improve very quickly, steele  not to drop the ball,  the back door being locked and keep on scoring. 

I feel your confidence is misplaced despite it being a poor division. Mowbray has only had one game, bit crazy to start making predictions now 

[47er]

Just now, Parsonblue said:

  Have we left it too late to make the change - I think we may well have.  I've said all season that I believe survival is vital for the club and still believe that but I'm enough of a realist to know that Mowbray has been given a mountain to climb by the last manager.  

By Venkys

[duggy9197]

Just had a quick look,In .the last 6 seasons these points made fourth from bottom safe

41

42

45

55

41

43

looks like 45pts maybe the benchmark.

[47er]

40 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Interesting that your view of Lowe contradicts Parson's. Based on what I've seen myself I'd agree with you, Glen, and tend to ignore what seems to be a bias towards, or even allowances for, a youth system product.

For any good that he does, he slows down play and stops us being an attacking force. When you don't have a great defence that will lead to the opposition getting opportunities. When he doesn't play we are a noticeably better team and get more points.

Jaio meanwhile just smacks of another free loan. Decent players cost actual money.

I have come in for a lot of stick (from the usual suspects it has to be said) but as far as last night's game:

- It was a must-win when Coyle was here on Monday.

- It was a must-win when we had no manager on Tuesday.

- It was a must-win when Mowbray took the job on, knowing he has to work with only the players here and must hit the ground running.

Of those three options the new manager bounce should have been our best chance to get the necessary win. Yet, for all our possession and shots, we could have lost that 2-1 if that ball hitting both posts had trickled over.

Very disappointed as this was one of three games where we needed to target all three points. We now have to get those two points back from much better teams than Burton. It's no use people defending this result and then at a later date saying, e.g. "Well, we were never going to beat Villa". We are playing catch up and running out of games to target.

-3 so far for Mowbray. He's playing catch up as well.

I usually agree with you Stuart but 48 hours isn't enough, not near enough to start turning thing around.

For a start, he wouldn't have picked the team, he would have had to rely on advice from Dunn and Co.

Secondly, he can't drill the team into the formation he wants overnight.

Thirdly, the team is unfit, its morale is battered.

Whether Mowbray can do it or not in the time allotted is doubtful but we would have lost this game if Coyle had stayed.(imo of course!)

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I was severely underwhelmed by our latest appointment but what's done is done.

I've seen it in the past were teams were struggling and got just one large stroke of luck to enable them to either stay in a game or actually win one. Following from that they've turned their season around.

Could it be the shot last night that apparently  hit both posts and still stayed out is our stroke of luck.

 

i'm thinking particularly of Howard Kendall in his first spell at Everton. They were really struggling and the knives were out for Kendall, he was probably another loss away from the sack.  The game in question was in the league cup at Oxford. They were losing 1-0 and playing like drains. With about 10 minutes to go an Oxford midfield  player totally inexplicably passed a ball blindly back to the goalie. Adrian Heath, who just loitering in the penalty area, seized on the pass and slotted it home. They got a draw that night, won the replay and never looked back eventually winning several trophies.

 

[Colt Seavers]

Great trip last night and a very enjoyable game of football. Glen's summation is spot on. Having read back through the thread, there were some mind boggling posts! I am Jason Lowe's harshest critic but no way on God's green earth is the manager going to effectively sack his captain and drop him after one session. What an astonishing thing to suggest!

I have previously posted that Dunn admires Lowe in midfield which disappoints me greatly but is a fact nevertheless. Lowe's performance last night was exactly the same as his other 100 odd midfield matches, which is to say wasteful in possession, no leadership quality, lots of energy, negative passing etc. I think he will remain in the side for now thanks to a combination of Dunn 's influence and the fact that Mowbray's focus will not be immediately in this area.

Speaking of Mowbray, he had a far greater reassuring presence on the touchline than anyone since Allardyce, including (in my opinion) the head scratchingly over rated Lambert who is performing hilariously at Wolves. A huge amount of defensive drilling was done with the defenders before the match by David Lowe and that is rightly where the focus should be. I am puzzled as to how Wes Brown can't get a look in. How bad can he be? Mulgrew is a sensation, captain in all but name and is wasted at the back. Of the back five, Steele and Williams will fail any honest appraisal by Mowbray and he will want to improve in those areas. He dragged the raw but willing Lenihan over to the touchline a couple of times in the second half for instruction which gave me confidence. Our first half play was a joy but lacked penalty area penetration. Interesting subs of both strikers, I would have preferred to see Stokes for Graham as I would personally start him for the next two or three in place of the Pillsbury dough boy formerly known as Danny.

Of the rest, Mahoney is going to be a big star but looks a little frail for now and maybe not yet a ninety minute man. Nyambe had a great first half with surging runs but seemed to lose confidence later. He is another with the kind of potential I would expect to flourish under Mowbray. Guthrie is classy and needs game time for fitness, Feeney is improving but will only ever be Feeney, Conway is fading fast and Gallagher was off the pace. Emnes battled but was ineffective. I think Graham will be concerned that his place is under threat. Whilst technically much better than say Rhodes, whilst in this shape and with a lazy attitude he (like Rhodes) has become all about goals and nothing else. We have so much possession but don't have a front man making bursting runs. A pacy striker, good at short diagonal runs to create space is needed -but Simon Garner is fifty six now!

All in all, I am very encouraged that, whatever happens, we have a man of integrity in charge for the first time in ages who will work hard and look to put the basics right. The squad is easily good enough for this level and just needs a bit of shape with some self belief tossed in for good measure.

One final thought: the vocal support was superb, but the "how $h!t must you be, we're winning away" when we scored, flies in the face of everything that vocal support should be. It must be demoralising for any human being to hear when they are battling (and winning) and it needs to stop. If that sounds terribly mard, consider that these players are the nineties generation of cossetted, pampered precious little mummies boys who won't be disrespected! I work with a few of those and they are a breed apart!

Anyway, I am massively encouraged by the sacking and hiring this week and like most on here, I have a renewed sense of cautious optimism, tempered of course by the accumulated slaps in the face of recent years.

[Athlete]

Just now, 47er said:

I usually agree with you Stuart but 48 hours isn't enough, not near enough to start turning thing around.

For a start, he wouldn't have picked the team, he would have had to rely on advice from Dunn and Co.

Secondly, he can't drill the team into the formation he wants overnight.

Thirdly, the team is unfit, its morale is battered.

Whether Mowbray can do it or not in the time allotted is doubtful but we would have lost this game if Coyle had stayed.(imo of course!)

OK Mowbray thought last night would be a bonus.. When he went into Coventry it was 14 games and he hit the ground running.. He'll now start hopefully to make his own mind up and make his own decisions and not over load on  what Dunn and Lowe tell him.. 

14 games can he do I think he can.  he'll have looked at it before and thought it was a good chance of survival 

If he doesn't keep us up he can always say 

1 he wasn't manager 

2 he was given the guys to work with and not bring in any of His own staff 

3 it wasn't his Team 

4 interference 

 

Even if he's a unmitigated disaster and gets sacked he'll get 18 months pay up 

No brainer 

But I for one think with the 14 games left he can do it 

Has to get something against derby and beat wigan 

 

[G Somerset Rover]

Cheers for the great report Colt. I know he's injury prone, but Guthrie would be worth a new one year deal for me. Decent player at this level if you can keep him on the pitch. Shocker (just one in a long, long list) from Coyle sidelining him unjustifiably for so long.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, colt seavers said:

Great trip last night and a very enjoyable game of football. Glenn's summation is spot on. Having read back through the thread, there were some mind boggling posts! I am Jason Lowe's harshest critic but no way on God's green earth is the manager going to effectively sack his captain and drop him after one session. What an astonishing thing to suggest!

I have previously posted that Dunn admires Lowe in midfield which disappoints me greatly but is a fact nevertheless. Lowe's performance last night was exactly the same as his other 100 odd midfield matches, which is to say wasteful in possession, no leadership quality, lots of energy, negative passing etc. I think he will remain in the side for now thanks to a combination of Dunn 's influence and the fact that Mowbray's focus will not be immediately in this area.

Speaking of Mowbray, he had a far greater reassuring presence on the touchline than anyone since Allardyce, including (in my opinion) the head scratchingly over rated Lambert who is performing hilariously at Wolves. A huge amount of defensive drilling was done with the defenders before the match by David Lowe and that is rightly where the focus should be. I am puzzled as to how Wes Brown can't get a look in. How bad can he be? Mulgrew is a sensation, captain in all but name and is wasted at the back. Of the back five, Steele and Williams will fail any honest appraisal by Mowbray and he will want to improve in those areas. He dragged the raw but willing Lenihan over to the touchline a couple of times in the second half for instruction which gave me confidence. Our first half play was a joy but lacked penalty area penetration. Interesting subs of both strikers, I would have preferred to see Stokes for Graham as I would personally start him for the next two or three in place of the Pillsbury dough boy formerly known as Danny.

Of the rest, Mahoney is going to be a big star but looks a little frail for now and maybe not yet a ninety minute man. Nyambe had a great first half with surging runs but seemed to lose confidence later. He is another with the kind of potential I would expect to flourish under Mowbray. Guthrie is classy and needs game time for fitness, Feeney is improving but will only ever be Feeney, Conway is fading fast and Gallagher was off the pace. Emnes battled but was ineffective. I think Graham will be concerned that his place is under threat. Whilst technically much better than say Rhodes, whilst in this shape and with a lazy attitude he (like Rhodes) has become all about goals and nothing else. We have so much possession but don't have a front man making bursting runs. A pacy striker, good at short diagonal runs to create space is needed -but Simon Garner is fifty six now!

All in all, I am very encouraged that, whatever happens, we have a man of integrity in charge for the first time in ages who will work hard and look to put the basics right. The squad is easily good enough for this level and just needs a bit of shape with some self belief tossed in for good measure.

One final thought: the vocal support was superb, but the "how $h!t must you be, we're winning away" when we scored, flies in the face of everything that vocal support should be. It must be demoralising for any human being to hear when they are battling (and winning) and it needs to stop. If that sounds terribly mard, consider that these players are the nineties generation of cossetted, pampered precious little mummies boys who won't be disrespected! I work with a few of those and they are a breed apart!

Anyway, I am massively encouraged by the sacking and hiring this week and like most on here, I have a renewed sense of cautious optimism, tempered of course by the accumulated slaps in the face of recent years.

A balanced post that was enjoyable to read. 

[AllRoverAsia]

What a very good post from colt seavers. Thank you.

[davulsukur]

20 minutes ago, Mercerman said:

Look it's simple.

So why do you always get it so wrong?

[gumboots]

5 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I was severely underwhelmed by our latest appointment but what's done is done.

I've seen it in the past were teams were struggling and got just one large stroke of luck to enable them to either stay in a game or actually win one. Following from that they've turned their season around.

Could it be the shot last night that apparently  hit both posts and still stayed out is our stroke of luck.

 

i'm thinking particularly of Howard Kendall in his first spell at Everton. They were really struggling and the knives were out for Kendall, he was probably another loss away from the sack.  The game in question was in the league cup at Oxford. They were losing 1-0 and playing like drains. With about 10 minutes to go an Oxford midfield  player totally inexplicably passed a ball blindly back to the goalie. Adrian Heath, who just loitering in the penalty area, seized on the pass and slotted it home. They got a draw that night, won the replay and never looked back eventually winning several trophies.

 

You're right. One moment in a season or a match can hugely change things. I remember Poyet hitting the bar in the Worthington Cup match and my daughter turning to me and saying, "We'll win now. That was their moment and the lucks with us now."  Silly and probably not true, but it changes belief in fans and players and can change a match, which in turn can change a season

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

23 minutes ago, Mercerman said:

Look it's simple.

I think this is a bang average league with no outstanding teams borne out by the fact that Rovers have done the double over top of the table Newcastle!  Compare to the Premier League, where I would say there's not a snowball's chance in hell of bottom club Sunderland doing the double over top club Chelsea.  

We have some decent players and any half decent manager should be able to organise and get enough out of these players to average 1.5 points a game which would take us to safety with a bit to spare.

I am able to rationalise all my comments, as the above.  Simple as that.

 

I was initially underwhelmed by Mowbray's appointment but have to say, based on his interviews and demeanour, he could be a great fit for us.  He clearly has his eyes wide open.  Should be backed to the hilt till the end of the season.  He is not responsible for the mess he inherited.

It's going to be close but if we can get a bit of momentum under Mowbray, I feel more confident we can make it.  We do need to start turning the odd draw into a win.  A defeat last night though would have been disastrous for confidence of both fans and players.

Looking at the table, I think Burton will be safe.  They seem to be grinding out points at the moment and have a bit of momentum.

Wigan have had a good spell recently, the question is, has their bubble now burst after a couple of losses?  They also play Leeds at home final game - hopefully Leeds need the points for a play off place.

Bristol are in dire straits.  Can't buy a win at the moment and a manager that's about as popular as Coyle.   At the moment they look the most likely to fall into the bottom 3.

I think Wolves will be safe enough.

For me then 3 from the current bottom 4.  Hopefully those teams have all had their 'little run' and we are still due ours!

 

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

Just as an aside, for those who have seen  Mahoney more than me,  Why can he not play 90 mins?  In my book there is something seriously wrong if an 18/19 year old lad isn't fit enough to play 90 mins.  Duff could do it a that age and he was puffing every 5 mins!

[booth]

11 hours ago, wolfie said:

Oh dear, you sound like my 4 year old grandson. I'd advise having a bite to eat, taking a nap

. Or laying off the ale. that one's just for you, obvs

Your 4 year old Grandson says f***?!

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, Parsonblue said:

The guy, like any new manager, will take time to put his stamp on the team Stuart - that's a fact of life.  Nobody is going to come into this club and wave a magic wand and turn everything around instantly.  It will take time to get his ideas across to the players but there was plenty of evidence last night that the players are willing to take on board a fresh approach.  Have we left it too late to make the change - I think we may well have.  I've said all season that I believe survival is vital for the club and still believe that but I'm enough of a realist to know that Mowbray has been given a mountain to climb by the last manager.  This may well go down to the last game but we need to start winning.  However, I'm not going to judge a guy on 90 minutes when for 70 of them we totally dominated the play but lacked that cutting edge.  I'm more than happy to give him time to address those problems.

So you agree with me then. We need to start winning. Regardless of who was in charge, that was a bad bad result for us last night. The 'winners' were Burton.

[RoverCanada]

41 minutes ago, colt seavers said:

Feeney is improving but will only ever be Feeney

At the risk of drawing some ire for defending many's favourite punching bag, may I humbly suggest Feeney has slowly become a pretty effective winger for us? He was quite good in the last few games I've seen and seems to be getting some occasional praise in games I haven't caught. He's no world-beater and probably will always have more pace than ball-sense, but at the very least the foursome of Conway, Feeney, Bennett, and Mahoney provides some needed competition on the wings for us (or you could turn that around and say we lack a standout winger haha...)

And, on a related note (topic- and unpopular opinions-wise), I have no problem with Mahoney only being used as an impact sub. He's had to be subbed every game he's started in his career as he seems to always tire by the 60th minute or so. Not an indictment of his future potential, he just needs to improve his fitness and that should come. For now, he provides a nice shot in the arm late in games.

[Parsonblue]

Just now, Stuart said:

So you agree with me then. We need to start winning. Regardless of who was in charge, that was a bad bad result for us last night. The 'winners' were Burton.

Talking to folk at the club at Burton, they felt it was a must win game for them - presumably because of some difficult fixtures coming up.  A draw was not the result either club wanted but neither club could afford to lose.  So I suspect whilst neither club is happy, neither club will be too disappointed.  But we do need to start winning.  Seven points from the next three home games would be a good springboard going forward.

[Gav]

Just now, Stuart said:

So you agree with me then. We need to start winning. Regardless of who was in charge, that was a bad bad result for us last night. The 'winners' were Burton.

I think we all agree we need to start winning, but your reaction last night was way over the top, I don't think I've ever witnessed such an overreaction by a seasoned poster......

The manager needs more than 48hrs to make a difference and even then he's working with the worst set of players to wear the shirt in living memory, so it's going to be tough.

We took points of a relegation rival away from home, so it's not all bad.

[DE.]

52 minutes ago, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Cheers for the great report Colt. I know he's injury prone, but Guthrie would be worth a new one year deal for me. Decent player at this level if you can keep him on the pitch. Shocker (just one in a long, long list) from Coyle sidelining him unjustifiably for so long.

I think it's telling that, even when Guthrie was basically available to any club on a free, there were no takers. We also got him on a free.

His injury proneness is an issue, but I imagine his attributes appear enhanced because he is surrounded by very poor players. I mean, when Feeney is being rated as one of our best players... maybe it's time to consider that our expectations and ambitions as a fanbase have now completely fallen through the floor.

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

I usually agree with you Stuart but 48 hours isn't enough, not near enough to start turning thing around.

For a start, he wouldn't have picked the team, he would have had to rely on advice from Dunn and Co.

Secondly, he can't drill the team into the formation he wants overnight.

Thirdly, the team is unfit, its morale is battered.

Whether Mowbray can do it or not in the time allotted is doubtful but we would have lost this game if Coyle had stayed.(imo of course!)

Again. Sigh.

Regardless of who was in charge last night. It was a must win game.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that everyone has given up.

If we are going to use the time argument then that is going to get trotted out every week right up to and including relegation. Because 14 games "isn't enough time". It's a defeatist attitude.

By the common logic on here, last night and this morning, no team should EVER expect a "new manager bounce" (clearly a myth) and we shouldn't have been targeting the Burton match as a win at all.

Meanwhile...

http://mobile.burtonalbionfc.co.uk//news/article/2016-17/nigel-cloughs-blackburn-reaction-3590566.aspx

Nigel Clough was 'delighted' to get a point against Blackburn and avoid losing ground to us. How on earth can he feel delighted? It was patently obvious Rovers would not win this match because we had a new manager.

And even...

http://m.burtonmail.co.uk/nigel-clough-hopes-to-avoid-new-manager-bounce-as-burton-albion-host-blackburn-rovers/story-30159156-detail/story.html

...before the game Clough even admitted he was fearful of us with a new man in charge. Why? He must've have known there is nothing that a new manager can do at such short notice. He must be privately laughing his socks off at his own mind games.

But regardless of all that, even with Coyle in charge this should have been a big win for us and the gap between us and Burton 3 instead of 6 and relying on other teams to do us a favour. And people say I need to get a grip!

[Stuart]

Just now, Gav said:

I think we all agree we need to start winning, but your reaction last night was way over the top, I don't think I've ever witnessed such an overreaction by a seasoned poster......

The manager needs more than 48hrs to make a difference and even then he's working with the worst set of players to wear the shirt in living memory, so it's going to be tough.

We took points of a relegation rival away from home, so it's not all bad.

You have a point. I was furious last night and actually did well to restrain myself against post after post slating me.

In terms of why, the gravity of last night hasn't dawned on you yet, Gav.