[Archived] Unsustainable Rovers

[blueboy3333]

Just now, 47er said:

God Almighty! If its in the balance sheets produced by the club its not a rumour is it?

Deliberately missing the point as usual.

I've no interest in what happens on the pitch? What an idiot.

If 47er doesn't like it, he gets nasty!

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, MCMC1875 said:

It's in the accounts in black and white as Dunnfc has pointed out several times. Short term loans with interest rates of 8% and 14%. One of which is borrowed against next year's season ticket sales. Who is arranging these loans? I can't get 0.5% on a savings account.

I haven't seen the accounting, or seen screen shots of this being attributed to borrowing on the ST sales, but would I be suprised? We are in a serious hole because of decisions made in 2010-13.

 

47 minutes ago, 47er said:

If J Biz doesn't like it, its a far-fetched rumour!

Thought I was on ignore, haven't you become a moderator at moany rovers clique.com yet?

[47er]

5 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

If 47er doesn't like it, he gets nasty!

All about provocation with you, no wonder so many people can't stand you. I'll leave you to it.

[Oldgregg86]

19 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

And, sadly, you have no interest in that.

Anyway, if ToMo gets it right on the pitch we'll all be able to enjoy a right good promotion all our financial worries will float away into the ether. There will be 20k+ on Ewood again and the vast majority who attend will not give a toss who owns us. That is a guarantee.

Can I have a glass of what your having. You think going to league 1 and dessimating the squad will lead to a promotion your in for a shock. If we, by some form of a miracle do get promoted think 20000 + will return to ewood after a promotion from league 1 especially with venkys in charge your deluded. If you think 100 million plus of debt plus ever increasing interest adding to it will just " float away" because we have unloaded some nobody's and replaced with worse I'm lost for words. As far as who owns us. Never forgive, never forget

[JBiz]

Just now, Oldgregg86 said:

Can I have a glass of what your having. You think going to league 1 and dessimating the squad will lead to a promotion your in for a shock. If we, by some form of a miracle do get promoted think 20000 + will return to ewood after a promotion from league 1 especially with venkys in charge your deluded. If you think 100 million plus of debt plus ever increasing interest adding to it will just " float away" because we have unloaded some nobody's and replaced with worse I'm lost for words. As far as who owns us. Never forgive, never forget

1. The cuts are a result of poor ownership. You don't need to remind anyone of why.

2. We are not in league 1. We are on the brink because of poor ownership decisions. We would've already been relegated if it wasn't for Senior sacking off Coyle for TM. This was a good decision "finally" and potentially could be followed by more.

3. I doubt that BB (although he doesn't need me defending his views) was referring to promotion to the champ from league 1. Twisting it to 20,000 coming back after promotion from league 1? Sure, that's as ridiculous as saying that the missing 10,000 fans are boycotters.

[AllRoverAsia]

2 hours ago, Jbizzle said:

Yea, the mortgage thing is from Nickos twitter and the part about Mahoney - listen to Mowbrays quotes on him. If he wants to leave for money to sit on a development squads bench, let him go.

Like PB, I feel a lot bettter about the direction of the club at current, releasing the STs late last season was criticised, this year they come early and that's criticised, or given alterior motive.

The idea that there should be a "carrot" completely undermines the argument that supporting a football club is like no other product.

If by 'carrot' you mean the offer by the Club to Fans of the Early Bird phase 1 at a discount (on a increased price!!!!) It actually supports the argument.

The seller being the Club are trying to entice the buyer the Fan to still buy a product at an increased price where both parties know that the product quality has fallen.

What other seller could hope to get away with that canfidence trick?

Our owners are exploiting the Fans knowing that supporting Rovers is not like buying a can of beans that has been on the shelf  a month too long but has gone up in price.

Alterior? Rarely used.

[JBiz]

Carrot was a reference to the initial discussion ARA. 

[OJRovers]

31st March today, i'm guessing that the overdraft has been renewed. 

£1m+ interest on loan interest vs £250k on players should be all over the LT. Shame it will be swept under the carpet.

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, Jbizzle said:

Carrot was a reference to the initial discussion ARA. 

Ok thx I think I missread no wonder I confused myself. Sorry.

[JBiz]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

Ok thx I think I missread no wonder I confused myself. Sorry.

No reason to apologise, I could've worded it better. The point was about the "stick" being the phase 1/2 and the "carrot" being nonexistent.

Its often said that this is not a standard business, so it doesn't work like that for me. The phasing of tickets seems more like we should be running the club, last season was a shambles. Early birds are a step in the correct direction for the day to day running of the club imo.

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, Jbizzle said:

No reason to apologise, I could've worded it better. The point was about the "stick" being the phase 1/2 and the "carrot" being nonexistent.

Its often said that this is not a standard business, so it doesn't work like that for me. The phasing of tickets seems more like we should be running the club, last season was a shambles. Early birds are a step in the correct direction for the day to day running of the club imo.

Yes at a normal club I would agree.

I worry that phase 1 is necessary to raise cash quickly to meet interest payments due on existing short term high interest loans that Rovers are liable for.

It would be interesting to know what lenders Rovers are using and if they use any of the football specific investment funds.

[1arC]

Just now, OJRovers said:

31st March today, i'm guessing that the overdraft has been renewed. 

£1m+ interest on loan interest vs £250k on players should be all over the LT. Shame it will be swept under the carpet.

It won't if you put a post up bringing it to the attention of some of the fans who are blissfully unaware.

[tomphil]

When what finally seems like a step in the right direction happens at Rovers these days it's always brought about by desperation rather than supporter or football friendly planning. I think it's worth noting that.

Always turns out to be one forwards to take two steps backwards here i'm afraid.

[ChrisyG]

I find the high interest loans taken against future ticket sales very worrying.

If my business has cashflow problems I call the bank and arrange an increase to our overdraft. However, taking out loans of this nature would be a complete last resort. Finance is clearly in a very precarious situation and it looks like Venky's are no longer prepared to provide funding.

Things are looking bleak IMO.

[JBiz]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

Yes at a normal club I would agree.

I worry that phase 1 is necessary to raise cash quickly to meet interest payments due on existing short term high interest loans that Rovers are liable for.

It would be interesting to know what lenders Rovers are using and if they use any of the football specific investment funds.

It's not big secret the debt is it? Ask yourself the question - is this an improvement on last season? (When we where in a similar albeit less precarious predicament)

For me, the answer is yes. Am I thrilled about the club being in so much debt, living month time month? No, but correct decisions are going to be a platform for at least an attempt at redemption.

The overall point - we moan when they make poor decisions, and there's been plenty to go on. We moan when they make better decisions because they are of an "alterior motive"

When do we get back to the reaction that suits "normal clubs"? You used that term, what is a normal club? In my eyes, debt ridden foreign owners agent vehicles are probably more "the norm" in 2017.

If giving credit for correct decisions isn't possible until they leave - that could be after we are both in the ground! 

[1arC]

Just now, Jbizzle said:

It's not big secret the debt is it? Ask yourself the question - is this an improvement on last season? (When we where in a similar albeit less precarious predicament)

For me, the answer is yes. Am I thrilled about the club being in so much debt, living month time month? No, but correct decisions are going to be a platform for at least an attempt at redemption.

The overall point - we moan when they make poor decisions, and there's been plenty to go on. We moan when they make better decisions because they are of an "alterior motive"

When do we get back to the reaction that suits "normal clubs"? You used that term, what is a normal club? In my eyes, debt ridden foreign owners agent vehicles are probably more "the norm" in 2017.

If giving credit for correct decisions isn't possible until they leave - that could be after we are both in the ground! 

Both in the ground? Not many will be in the ground at all soon, ironically.

[JBiz]

20 minutes ago, 1arC said:

Both in the ground? Not many will be in the ground at all soon, ironically.

As in pushing up daisies! 

[RoverCanada]

Forgive me if I've missed something as I haven't really caught up on this 'payday' loan rabble, but taking a look at the most recent accounts' creditors' section (section 16, pg 23): link to accounts

'Other loans' dropped from £4.5M in 2015 to £2.2M in 2016. The amount owed to the 'parent undertaking', i.e. Venky's, grew from £87.1M to £87.3M - this is the interest-free bit I think. The bank overdraft grew from £12.9M to £14.2M.

I was under the impression it's the bank overdraft they've been relying on now rather than those 'other loans'. The bank overdraft is at 2.65% + 6-month LIBOR (currently 1.42%), quite low. The accounts state £431k of the 'other loans' was paid off in July 2016 and was at a 14% interest rate. £1.8M was due today (oddly enough) and was at a 8.6% interest rate (this is the loan secured against this year's season tickets).

When I was looking at this last month I had thought the interest payments were going down if we could shift our debt load from the high-interest 'other loans' to the overdraft. Has it come out that we've exhuasted the overdraft? Either way, even if we needed another high-interest 'other' loan to pay off that old loan today, given those 14% and 8.6% rate loans that were already plain to see in the accounts, none of this is new really.

[MCMC1875]

1 hour ago, OJRovers said:

31st March today, i'm guessing that the overdraft has been renewed. 

£1m+ interest on loan interest vs £250k on players should be all over the LT. Shame it will be swept under the carpet.

£1m+ spent on interest wasn't it?

.....and £250k on players.

[Mike E]

7 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

Forgive me if I've missed something as I haven't really caught up on this 'payday' loan rabble, but taking a look at the most recent accounts' creditors' section (section 16, pg 23): link to accounts

'Other loans' dropped from £4.5M in 2015 to £2.2M in 2016. The amount owed to the 'parent undertaking', i.e. Venky's, grew from £87.1M to £87.3M - this is the interest-free bit I think. The bank overdraft grew from £12.9M to £14.2M.

I was under the impression it's the bank overdraft they've been relying on now rather than those 'other loans'. The bank overdraft is at 2.65% + 6-month LIBOR (currently 1.42%), quite low. The accounts state £431k of the 'other loans' was paid off in July 2016 and was at a 14% interest rate. £1.8M was due today (oddly enough) and was at a 8.6% interest rate (this is the loan secured against this year's season tickets).

When I was looking at this last month I had thought the interest payments were going down if we could shift our debt load from the high-interest 'other loans' to the overdraft. Has it come out that we've exhuasted the overdraft? Either way, even if we needed another high-interest 'other' loan to pay off that old loan today, given those 14% and 8.6% rate loans that were already plain to see in the accounts, none of this is new really.

It's new to me and my dad, who have both decided not to renew on the back of it.

Had enough of being fiddled by the owners. We're not quite at NAPM stage yet (I am, but if it makes my dad happy I'm going with him) but we'll pick and choose games next season.

[Stuart]

5 hours ago, Jbizzle said:

Yea, the mortgage thing is from Nickos twitter and the part about Mahoney - listen to Mowbrays quotes on him. If he wants to leave for money to sit on a development squads bench, let him go.

Like PB, I feel a lot bettter about the direction of the club at current, releasing the STs late last season was criticised, this year they come early and that's criticised, or given alterior motive.

The idea that there should be a "carrot" completely undermines the argument that supporting a football club is like no other product.

You "feel a lot better"? I certainly don't. High interest loans together with our existing debt suggest Venkys have completely turned off the taps. If they have then we will be in administration sooner rather than later. Sooner still if fans hold off buying a season ticket depending on which division we are in and then won't pay £349 if we are relegated.

We are about to find out just how many hardcore supporters we really have. If it's 8,000 then we will crawl on for another half season. To have any future hope we need to be attracting fans back. We will not get back to 15,000 fans unless there is something for those who have left to return to.

I'm sure you can grasp the concept of having different types of "fans". Perhaps like Parson, you would be happy in this fantastical, imaginary world where we have 4,000 hardcore fans behind the team "even if we are in League Two" because you only care about true fans. Personally I think the club needs the fair-weather fans as well.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

We are in a world of Shyte and its getting worse every season Venkys are here,this is all going to end in tears.

They purport to be billionaire Philanthropist owners but have now seemingly cut off the financial lifeline....what the hell is really going on here?

For the future of this great club they must sell asap to owners who have the best interests of the club at heart.

I'm totally bereft with it all tbh,I'm at a totally loss as to understand why the club is being deliberately run into the ground as we look on in horror.

[Mattyblue]

Just now, Mike E said:

It's new to me and my dad, who have both decided not to renew on the back of it.

Had enough of being fiddled by the owners. We're not quite at NAPM stage yet (I am, but if it makes my dad happy I'm going with him) but we'll pick and choose games next season.

Don't understand 'picking your games'.

With the massive difference between ST and match day prices, even If you go to just half of them you'll still be giving the club your ST money.

 

[Oldgregg86]

3 hours ago, Jbizzle said:

1. The cuts are a result of poor ownership. You don't need to remind anyone of why.

2. We are not in league 1. We are on the brink because of poor ownership decisions. We would've already been relegated if it wasn't for Senior sacking off Coyle for TM. This was a good decision "finally" and potentially could be followed by more.

3. I doubt that BB (although he doesn't need me defending his views) was referring to promotion to the champ from league 1. Twisting it to 20,000 coming back after promotion from league 1? Sure, that's as ridiculous as saying that the missing 10,000 fans are boycotters.

Haha sorry I thought he meant promoted from league 1.  I didn't realise that there was anyone left stupid enough think getting back to the prem was a possibility. You keep eating this shiit there spoon feeding you. I'm full up

[J*B]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Don't understand 'picking your games'.

With the massive difference between ST and match day prices, even If you go to just half of them you'll still be giving the club your ST money.

 

I believe (although could be correct) it is just the season ticket sales which have been loaned against - not the walk ons. Kind of feel like its neither here nor there.