[Archived] Election called for 8th June

[den]

NHS Trust deficit running at £700m

NHS sources have confirmed the deficit figure to Sky News "just days after the Department of Health ruled that official accounts for 2016-17 could not be published until after the election because of their political sensitivity."

 

http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-trusts-run-up-163700m-deficit-sky-news-sources-reveal-10889285

[blueboy3333]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/you-lied-us-boris-johnson-10477448

Boris running away from his lies, and the electorate. Coward.

[Biddy]

Wow! It's let's all round on Chaddy hour just because he has his own opinion and has the balls to stick to it.

Just now, Biz said:

 

Quote

Education... did you see the news about state schools writing to parents for money? Have you a clue about academy's bar the one that you might know something about from experience? The education system in this country is a complete Joke, and under a pro-corporate government, it suits them to a tee.

Do you actually have any experience yourself apart from the one headline you have quoted.  My wife is a governor at our local school and their head teacher is actively seeking to join a MAT.  I guess there are more sides to every argument.

Quote

Low employment, is that because more jobs are available or is it because more low skilled and low paid jobs are available?

That is just a completely bizarre comment. A job is a job and if people are employed that's a good thing.  There have always been low skilled and low paid jobs and always will be.

 

I think Chaddy has every right to be upset at you just as he has an opposing opinion.

[JBiz]

Just now, Biddy said:

Wow! It's let's all round on Chaddy hour just because he has his own opinion and has the balls to stick to it.

I think Chaddy has every right to be upset at you just as he has an opposing opinion.

It's not Chaddy, it's his post. If he was to take it personally, then I can apologise for that but I can quite clearly (as many previously have) pick huge holes on his rationale for voting the way he is. I won't apologise for that Biddy, we are going to end up with another 5 years of disastrous leadership because of votes cast with the same lack of awareness.

"Do you actually have any experience yourself apart from the one headline you have quoted.  My wife is a governor at our local school and their head teacher is actively seeking to join a MAT.  I guess there are more sides to every argument."

Worked in FE and secondary for 10+ years, watched it drain of funding and support from the government, watched good staff walk away, watch management grow in numbers but lessen in culpability. Watched an ofstead observation system turn school leadership into a popularity contest and watched the changing in assessment, grading, sats, other tests and EPs make a mockery of the expertise of teachers. Watched the squeeze on arts, practical and vocational study, watch university education become a second mortgage system completely against the idea we want to upskill the majority.

"That is just a completely bizarre comment. A job is a job and if people are employed that's a good thing.  There have always been low skilled and low paid jobs and always will be."

Inflation outpacing the increase of earnings mean that more people employed on low wages = more people unable to pay bills, get on the housing market or put money aside for their futures. How can homelessness be so high, but unemployment so low? More low skilled (poor education, innacessible adult/degree study) workers + more low skilled jobs = furthering wage inequality and a smile on the face of corporate Britain.

[den]

Anyone see the May interview on sky news?

totally flustered, it was embarrassing watching it.

She's gone into this election believing that she only needs to mention Corbyns name to walk it. She had the run on all the other parties by her surprise announcement of the GE, yet she has gone in with a manifesto that's collapsing around her. She cant say what the cap will be on the dementia tax, what the means rested level for the fuel tax will be, where the money from the health service will come from. She can't even say whether taxes will go up, or whether last years planned - then scrapped - budget rise in NI contributions will be revived.

awful.

[chaddyrovers]

6 hours ago, DE. said:

I know plenty of people who are the same way. To say "I don't have the time to read the manifesto of the party that will govern the country I live in, but I'll vote for them anyway" is absolute madness imo. But Chaddy is far from alone.

So you really expecting everyone to read every manifesto? how much time do you think people really have? Family time or manifesto time? I know which side I'm on and its manifesto

3 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Who in Labours leadership do you dislike so much and why?

far too many name but when you got Diana Abbott in the shadow cabinet after her double standards on private education.

Plus when Len Mclenskey really running the Labour part not corbyn

My Local MP Graham Jones is a good MP and done a lot for the area but even he doesn't want Corbyn as leader so what does that say.

2 hours ago, DE. said:

I've read the Tory, Labour and Lib Dem manifestos, yeah. Skimmed certain sections as is only prudent. 

really? far too much time on your hands

1 hour ago, Baz said:

So you haven't even bothered to read the Conservative manifesto on those key areas, let alone compare them to the other parties? The Tories are cutting the money put into health and social care, and have done consistently.

The money in education is to fund their continuing drive to bring back Grammar schools, free schools, scrapping GCSEs  to bring in baccalaureates, or whatever is the latest top down restructuring trend of the month.

And what exactly 'does strong on Brexit' mean?

I'd only agree that they are going to marginally increase spending on defence. 

Health care funding since 2010 have gone up year on year

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

 

26 minutes ago, Biz said:

 

You said yourself, you always vote blue - so don't try to justify that with a belief in their manifesto. You can't even justify the leadership angle because Theresa May has shown herself to be nothing but a complete liar, and Corbyn is not spinning on a top with U-Turn after U-Turn.

Corbyn is also a far better speaker than her also which I have to admit that I bought the rhetoric about him being dull, before seeing him passionately lead rallies in front of thousands of people.

So please Chaddy, don't get upset or angry at me, you've right dropped a bollock on this one. You have a right to choose who you see fit, but I'd advise you do more reading and research prior to posting in future; you have no idea how frustrating/insulting it is to read people say they want to help NHS or education by voting Tory, they put both public sectors on their absolute knees.

Like I have said before on here, not a massive fan of May but she will be strong against EU, Corbyn wont.

Corbyn is a better speaker? tbh, both bored the pants of me.

NHS funding gone up since 2010.

here are the education spending stats.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2007_2020UKb_17c1li111lcn_20t

Yes funding has gone down but set to increase over the next 5 years

On my step daughter academy school, I am looking forward to her going to it and having good facilities and the help she will be need to improve and reach her goals. I can only commented on the schools Ive been to visit and speaking to my former school teachers. everyone has their opinion on it. some think its improve and some don't but all want to see more money to be spend on Education

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Biddy said:

Wow! It's let's all round on Chaddy hour just because he has his own opinion and has the balls to stick to it.

I think Chaddy has every right to be upset at you just as he has an opposing opinion.

You're not so quick to stick up for him on the footy threads. Funny that.

[Biddy]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

You're not so quick to stick up for him on the footy threads. Funny that.

What's that got to do with anything?

[Batman.]

Just now, Biddy said:

What's that got to do with anything?

His stance is quite simply "I'm voting Conservative regardless, I don't care about policies, I've not even read them."

Ballsy indeed.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Biddy said:

What's that got to do with anything?

People are just questioning his opinions. You've decided to make it personal by saying posters are 'rounding on him', but that's only because you agree with his position. I've seen far worse 'rounding' on Chaddy on the footy threads but you were nowhere to be seen/heard then.

[JBiz]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

So you really expecting everyone to read every manifesto? how much time do you think people really have? Family time or manifesto time? I know which side I'm on and its manifesto

far too many name but when you got Diana Abbott in the shadow cabinet after her double standards on private education.

Plus when Len Mclenskey really running the Labour part not corbyn

really? far too much time on your hands

Health care funding since 2010 have gone up year on year

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

 

Like I have said before on here, not a massive fan of May but she will be strong against EU, Corbyn wont.

Corbyn is a better speaker? tbh, both bored the pants of me.

NHS funding gone up since 2010.

here are the education spending stats.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2007_2020UKb_17c1li111lcn_20t

Yes funding has gone down but set to increase over the next 5 years

On my step daughter academy school, I am looking forward to her going to it and having good facilities and the help she will be need to improve and reach her goals. I can only commented on the schools Ive been to visit and speaking to my former school teachers. everyone has their opinion on it. some think its improve and some don't but all want to see more money to be spend on Education

Money is up in the NHS, but the cost is the way it has been run. You surely have to be living under a rock to think it's working for all. Don't just use your own experiences, for example I actually think Accrington has benefitted from improvements - the Blackburn road/Pals sites but the big picture is far worse. Simple quote from Neil - "worst 12 months in its history".

Funding is down in education when everything costs more. How does that work? You've talked about the academy before, I'm aware of the pro's involved in SOME but look at some of the other local or inner city comprehensives, they are in absolute pieces. The primary school EP/literacy/numeracy changes by this government are going to be changed again because THEY DONT WORK, just like I predict the new 1-9 system will be, which is already capping all 2017 graduates due to problems with the tests. Funding in 5 years puts another generation of kids at risk. It needs immediate action.

How can you trust a party that said they wanted to half the deficit but widened it, and then promised it again in 10 years? When will it get to a point where enough is enough!?

Truth be told, I am impacted by the mistakes directly. It's easy for me to get angry - but I'm just as angry at this "dementia" tax and the cap on winter fuel payments because they are plain wrong! How can you ignore them?

Bored the pants of you is one thing, lied through a grin at you - only one did that!

[DE.]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

So you really expecting everyone to read every manifesto? how much time do you think people really have? Family time or manifesto time? I know which side I'm on and its manifesto

really? far too much time on your hands

Too much time on my hands? Took 2-3 hours mate. The manifestos aren't that huge and as long as you know where to skim it's not an intensive process. Seems worth it to form my own opinion on what is the biggest decision a citizen of a supposed democracy can make.

If you want to let the media dictate your opinion then that's your call, but I find it unfathomable. People have taken democracy for granted for far too long, and are willingly allowing their liberties to be taken in the name of laziness and an easier life. Enjoy it. 

[JBiz]

Just now, DE. said:

Too much time on my hands? Took 2-3 hours mate. The manifestos aren't that huge and as long as you know where to skim it's not an intensive process. Seems worth it to form my own opinion on what is the biggest decision a citizen of a supposed democracy can make.

If you want to let the media dictate your opinion then that's your call, but I find it unfathomable. People have taken democracy for granted for far too long, and are willingly allowing their liberties to be taken in the name of laziness and an easier life. Enjoy it. 

Fantastic point. I didn't vote on the referendum because I couldnt stand the way it was paraded without fact on a black and white answer. I won't make the mistake again!

[Biddy]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

People are just questioning his opinions. You've decided to make it personal by saying posters are 'rounding on him', but that's only because you agree with his position. I've seen far worse 'rounding' on Chaddy on the footy threads but you were nowhere to be seen/heard then.

I was just pointing out what was obvious, that many posters are rounding on Chaddy because of his views.  Where did I say I agreed with his position?

I hardly post in the footy threads.  

[Biddy]

Just now, DE. said:

Too much time on my hands? Took 2-3 hours mate. The manifestos aren't that huge and as long as you know where to skim it's not an intensive process. Seems worth it to form my own opinion on what is the biggest decision a citizen of a supposed democracy can make.

If you want to let the media dictate your opinion then that's your call, but I find it unfathomable. People have taken democracy for granted for far too long, and are willingly allowing their liberties to be taken in the name of laziness and an easier life. Enjoy it. 

I commend you for reading (skimming) them, I still bet most people (including me) don't read them at all.

Out of serious interest, when you read them, did you read them impartially?

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Biz said:

Money is up in the NHS, but the cost is the way it has been run. You surely have to be living under a rock to think it's working for all. Don't just use your own experiences, for example I actually think Accrington has benefitted from improvements - the Blackburn road/Pals sites but the big picture is far worse. Simple quote from Neil - "worst 12 months in its history".

Funding is down in education when everything costs more. How does that work? You've talked about the academy before, I'm aware of the pro's involved in SOME but look at some of the other local or inner city comprehensives, they are in absolute pieces. The primary school EP/literacy/numeracy changes by this government are going to be changed again because THEY DONT WORK, just like I predict the new 1-9 system will be, which is already capping all 2017 graduates due to problems with the tests. Funding in 5 years puts another generation of kids at risk. It needs immediate action.

How can you trust a party that said they wanted to half the deficit but widened it, and then promised it again in 10 years? When will it get to a point where enough is enough!?

Truth be told, I am impacted by the mistakes directly. It's easy for me to get angry - but I'm just as angry at this "dementia" tax and the cap on winter fuel payments because they are plain wrong! How can you ignore them?

Bored the pants of you is one thing, lied through a grin at you - only one did that!

the Accrington Pals site is excellent and the doctors are good.

I have my own experiences and those who are family and friends who works these sectors. I know a few nurses and some are happy and some aren't. same as teachers. That's all I can use.

current winter fuel allowance policy

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2007_2020UKb_17c1li111lcn_20t

Tories policy currently for this election is pledging that pensioners in “genuine need” will still get the winter fuel allowance. My dad is a pensioners isn't really in need of it. would it affect in real terms if he didn't get it. No it wouldn't. My parents live a very simple life and have no debt or mortgage nor rich but have always work hard, paid their taxes and been law abiding people. They live a conformable live style but don't overspend.

Pensioners who are in needed of it should received it. of course so and no problem with me, but then some don't need it financially

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Biddy said:

I was just pointing out what was obvious, that many posters are rounding on Chaddy because of his views.  Where did I say I agreed with his position?

I hardly post in the footy threads.  

No, people were disagreeing with him. You invented the 'rounding on him' bit. You made it personal for a reason.

[Biddy]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

No, people were disagreeing with him. You invented the 'rounding on him' bit. You made it personal for a reason.

You're getting boring now.

[jim mk2]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Plus when Len Mclenskey really running the Labour part not corbyn

Like I have said before on here, not a massive fan of May but she will be strong against EU, Corbyn wont.

NHS funding gone up since 2010.

So you're happy to vote for a party sponsored and run by the press barons and big business rather than one that represents workers? 

May is so wobbly she's made 9, yes 9, U-turns in 12 months. She won't have a chance against the likes of Juncker. We're heading for a hard Brexit whoever is in No 10, and it's what the swivels on the right want anyway

NHS is grossly underfunded whichever way you spin it. The last time it was properly funded was under Labour

 

 

[DE.]

Just now, Biddy said:

I commend you for reading (skimming) them, I still bet most people (including me) don't read them at all.

Out of serious interest, when you read them, did you read them impartially?

I agree most people don't read them, and that's sad. They are written to be accessible to the public, but instead are digested by the media and then spat out with sensationalist headlines and that's what people remember. Dangerous.

It would be naïve to think anybody reads these things impartially. We all have our biases. But at least form your own biases rather than letting the media tell you how to think. 

[JBiz]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

the Accrington Pals site is excellent and the doctors are good.

I have my own experiences and those who are family and friends who works these sectors. I know a few nurses and some are happy and some aren't. same as teachers. That's all I can use.

current winter fuel allowance policy

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2007_2020UKb_17c1li111lcn_20t

Tories policy currently for this election is pledging that pensioners in “genuine need” will still get the winter fuel allowance. My dad is a pensioners isn't really in need of it. would it affect in real terms if he didn't get it. No it wouldn't. My parents live a very simple life and have no debt or mortgage nor rich but have always work hard, paid their taxes and been law abiding people. They live a conformable live style but don't overspend.

Pensioners who are in needed of it should received it. of course so and no problem with me, but then some don't need it financially

Some good, most bad though Chaddy. Why would nurses vote to strike if most were happy? Why are more than half of the new teachers qualified in 2010 already out of the profession, if it worked?

You keep using personal examples, and I'm afraid I find that a bit morally lacking. The point I was making about the fuel allowance is "where is the line" and who says yes or no? If it's a cut (which it is) it means more elderly people suffering because if it's intent on making savings, some who require it won't get it. What next, means tested flu jabs?

[Biddy]

14 minutes ago, Biz said:

It's not Chaddy, it's his post. If he was to take it personally, then I can apologise for that but I can quite clearly (as many previously have) pick huge holes on his rationale for voting the way he is. I won't apologise for that Biddy, we are going to end up with another 5 years of disastrous leadership because of votes cast with the same lack of awareness.

"Do you actually have any experience yourself apart from the one headline you have quoted.  My wife is a governor at our local school and their head teacher is actively seeking to join a MAT.  I guess there are more sides to every argument."

Worked in FE and secondary for 10+ years, watched it drain of funding and support from the government, watched good staff walk away, watch management grow in numbers but lessen in culpability. Watched an ofstead observation system turn school leadership into a popularity contest and watched the changing in assessment, grading, sats, other tests and EPs make a mockery of the expertise of teachers. Watched the squeeze on arts, practical and vocational study, watch university education become a second mortgage system completely against the idea we want to upskill the majority.

"That is just a completely bizarre comment. A job is a job and if people are employed that's a good thing.  There have always been low skilled and low paid jobs and always will be."

Inflation outpacing the increase of earnings mean that more people employed on low wages = more people unable to pay bills, get on the housing market or put money aside for their futures. How can homelessness be so high, but unemployment so low? More low skilled (poor education, innacessible adult/degree study) workers + more low skilled jobs = furthering wage inequality and a smile on the face of corporate Britain.

I've only just seen your additional replies.  I really don't like the new editor, I can't separate out quotes.

Thank you for your insights on the education system although I do note that you state that is over 10 years, so started before the current government came to power. 

I did however think the discussion was on adamemisation and the merits thereof.  As I say, our school is actively trying to join a MAT so there must be some benefits seem by head teachers in some areas.  I'm only playing devils advocate here as I would prefer them all to stay as state schools.

On employment, low skilled/paid jobs is still not a great argument unless you are advocating that the reason we still need open immigration is to fill these jobs?  Although surely its good that the people already in this country are filling these jobs not matter how unskilled they are? Low unemployment is generally a good thing.

[Baz]

13 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

So you really expecting everyone to read every manifesto? how much time do you think people really have? Family time or manifesto time? I know which side I'm on and its manifesto

far too many name but when you got Diana Abbott in the shadow cabinet after her double standards on private education.

Plus when Len Mclenskey really running the Labour part not corbyn

My Local MP Graham Jones is a good MP and done a lot for the area but even he doesn't want Corbyn as leader so what does that say.

really? far too much time on your hands

Health care funding since 2010 have gone up year on year

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

 

Like I have said before on here, not a massive fan of May but she will be strong against EU, Corbyn wont.

Corbyn is a better speaker? tbh, both bored the pants of me.

NHS funding gone up since 2010.

here are the education spending stats.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2007_2020UKb_17c1li111lcn_20t

Yes funding has gone down but set to increase over the next 5 years

On my step daughter academy school, I am looking forward to her going to it and having good facilities and the help she will be need to improve and reach her goals. I can only commented on the schools Ive been to visit and speaking to my former school teachers. everyone has their opinion on it. some think its improve and some don't but all want to see more money to be spend on Education

Health AND social care funding has gone down under the Tory government. The two are totally interdependent. Those bed blockers in hospital are because the social care funding has dropped so low that care homes have gone under, and local councils have massive budget deficits trying to do what they can. It's clear and factual information, not some right wing paper headlines. My local A&E was closed for months and is now part time because the hospital didn't have enough money to run the service. Waiting lists across the NHS are up. These arent small problems, this is people's lives. And for what? Another 10 years of austerity, where the wealth of our richest people has quadrupled, whilst the rest of us stagnate? Corporation tax cuts, when we are pretty much there bar being a tax haven, who's benefitting from that, when wages are stagnating?

You also want to have a look at the cuts this government has made to disabled people's income - it's outrageous. 

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

So you're happy to vote for a party sponsored and run by the press barons and big business rather than one that represents workers? 

May is so wobbly she's made 9, yes 9, U-turns in 12 months. She won't have a chance against the likes of Juncker. We're heading for a hard Brexit whoever is in No 10, and it's what the swivels on the right want anyway

NHS is grossly underfunded whichever way you spin it. The last time it was properly funded was under Labour

 

 

NHS spending on managers rise by 450% under Labour

https://fullfact.org/news/did-nhs-spending-managers-rise-450-under-labour/

Wasn't it Tony Blair who started privatising the NHS?

Blair and Cameron were good leaders of each party

Just now, Biz said:

Some good, most bad though Chaddy. Why would nurses vote to strike if most were happy? Why more than half of new teachers qualified 2010 already be out of the profession if it worked?

You keep using personal examples, and I'm afraid I find that a bit morally lacking. The point I was making about the fuel allowance is "where is the line" and who says yes or no? If it's a cut (which it is) it means more elderly people suffering because if it's intent on making savings, some who require it won't get it. What next, means tested flu jabs?

Why don't you asked Nurses who are unhappy not me?

Like I said some nurses are happy and some not. My ex is very happy with her job in the NHS.

That's the problem with mean testing people but what other way is them?

 

[JBiz]

Just now, Biddy said:

I've only just seen your additional replies.  I really don't like the new editor, I can't separate out quotes.

Thank you for your insights on the education system although I do note that you state that is over 10 years, so started before the current government came to power. 

I did however think the discussion was on adamemisation and the merits thereof.  As I say, our school is actively trying to join a MAT so there must be some benefits seem by head teachers in some areas.  I'm only playing devils advocate here as I would prefer them all to stay as state schools.

On employment, low skilled/paid jobs is still not a great argument unless you are advocating that the reason we still need open immigration is to fill these jobs?  Although surely its good that the people already in this country are filling these jobs not matter how unskilled they are? Low unemployment is generally a good thing.

As a secondary teacher at current - the idea of choosing a qualification I believe in, teaching it the way I believe best for the kids I know, is only something I could do in an academy, since most vocational music courses are not on the "performance tables" for comprehensives.

So even though that is a huge PRO in terms of my personal experience, I still can't get behind a system that is simply a mask to move public funds into private hands. It's when "directors" and business managers are making educational decisions instead of headteachers, warning bells ring.

Often those sat on the boards of the trusts own shares in cleaning, IT, transport and other services necessary for schools. 

Low employment is good yes, but how can usage of food banks and homelessness go up along side? Zero hours, Contracts, dodgy employment tactics like the 8 week shift and agency staff all need looking at. I'm not so focussed on immigration, it's a necessity for the NHS to survive because of a skills drain. Farming industry almost solely relies on seasonal labour from abroad also. This governments plans to reduce it seem like just a rouse to gain UKIP voters.