[Archived] Don't know where to put this

[JHRover]

Villa have been inept away from home all season. Just look at their results and performances. They're one of the worst sides in the league away from home.

They didn't make 10 changes to their side from the week before and there's no reason to believe their dire performance was in any shape or form a result of Birmingham's situation and wanting to relegate them. Villa are just rubbish away from home and the side that turned up at Ewood was the same side that has rolled over everywhere else this season on the road.

Just imagine here if Villa had dropped their 11 from the week before and gone with their 2nd string against Rovers. Forest and Birmingham in particular would be in uproar.

Yet they didn't. Despite having nothing to play for but pride Steve Bruce still sent out his regular starting side to respect the fixture. It would have been easy for him to throw 4-5 kids in to see how they handled the occasion yet he didn't. As much as I dislike the bloke he clearly understands a thing or two about the integrity of the competition and treating all games with respect, unlike Wagner and some of the other foreigners in our game.

[Batman.]

Just now, JHRover said:

If it is unenforceable then how come the 'EFL' have asked Huddersfield to comment on it?

If it is unenforceable then why does it remain in the League rules and hasn't been removed?

If it's "enforceable," why has it never been enforced?

[DE.]

Just now, JHRover said:

If it is unenforceable then why does it remain in the League rules and hasn't been removed?

 A good question. The PL removed it in 2011 after a lot of problems, and realising it was basically ridiculous:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/14166038

The EFL should have followed suit, but that would have required a level of competency that appears to be beyond them.

[Oldgregg86]

Just wondering why this has caused so much uproar and people find it so important to follow fa rules after the villa game and yet the league cup 3rd round never causes these kinds of debates with kids and reserves played throughout the early rounds by most teams. I agree with Batman. It is all very desprate

[Batman.]

Just now, DE. said:

 A good question. The PL removed it in 2011 after a lot of problems, and realising it was basically ridiculous:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/14166038

The EFL should have followed suit, but that would have required a level of competency that appears to be beyond them.

Exactly. Enforcement would only end in months of legal cases, thus potentially casting a legal cloud over the promotion of a particular team.

I suspect our Championship legacy may well be erasing this futile rule.

 

[donnermeat]

Just now, JHRover said:

If it is unenforceable then how come the 'EFL' have asked Huddersfield to comment on it?

If it is unenforceable then why does it remain in the League rules and hasn't been removed?

It's there to cover their own ar$e.

The Football League cannot tell a club who is or isn't the best players to play in a match. Regardless of how many appearances their squad members have, it's still technically an opinion and that is nowhere near concrete enough to prevent any serious action. 

The EFL will hand them a nominal fine, six figures at the most, because Huddersfield won't bother going through the hassle to contest something like that. If it was a serious money fine, or a point deduction that took Huddersfield out of the play offs, I think they would certainly contest it and that rule wouldn't hold up in any court I imagine.

[AllRoverAsia]

16 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Just wondering why this has caused so much uproar and people find it so important to follow fa rules after the villa game and yet the league cup 3rd round never causes these kinds of debates with kids and reserves played throughout the early rounds by most teams. I agree with Batman. It is all very desprate

This is a desperate relegation battle involving 3 clubs.

With just 1 game to go one of them has had a 3 point gift.

It is that simple.

[speeeeeeedie]

Firstly, Rovers are in trouble through Rovers ineptness both on and off the pitch. Nobody else is to blame.

In reply to the specific topic, I still think Wagner did nothing wrong. He's the manager and he does as he sees fit. He wants to get to the Premier League, he is doing what is best for his team. Their toughest opponent this season was Man City in the FA cup. They drew 0-0 and took them to a replay. That team contained 9 of the 11 who played against Birmingham. That team drew with City.

v City	v Birmingham
Coleman	Coleman
Cranie	Cranie
Hudson	Hudson
Stankovic	Smith
Holmes-Dennis	Holmes-Dennis
Whitehead	Whitehead
Billing	Billing
Lolley	Lolley
Payne	Payne
van La Parra	Bunn
Quaner	Quaner

Redknapp didn't coerce anyone to change a team. He was giving his opinion on what he might do in similar circumstances. How that can be construed as somehow forcing Huddersfield's hand is laughable.

The EFL rule exists, in my view, to create some notion of fair play so that the integrity of the league cannot be called into question.

It is enforceable; with fines, and a slap on the wrist. The EFL should tweak it's rule to match that of the Premier League's 25 man squad rule, with exceptions for younger players.

Contacting the EFL, although admirable, is a fools errand, and smells of desperation. Birmingham won't be punished, they won't lose points, the game will not be mandated to be replayed.

 

 

[AllRoverAsia]

The fact that we are crap has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

I need a head banging emoticon.

This will have to do

 

[den]

2 hours ago, K-Hod said:

I suppose a broader point would be- what is the actual point of this rule, if it is never to be enforced anyway?

It is also in direct conflict with being allowed a 25 man squad, but then having to play a strongest XI. The whole thing absolutely stinks.

The actual point is to prevent clubs from conceding certain games, in order to simply target what it deems winnable.

[Batman.]

Just now, speeeeeeedie said:

Firstly, Rovers are in trouble through Rovers ineptness both on and off the pitch. Nobody else is to blame.

In reply to the specific topic, I still think Wagner did nothing wrong. He's the manager and he does as he sees fit. He wants to get to the Premier League, he is doing what is best for his team. Their toughest opponent this season was Man City in the FA cup. They drew 0-0 and took them to a replay. That team contained 9 of the 11 who played against Birmingham. That team drew with City.

v City	v Birmingham
Coleman	Coleman
Cranie	Cranie
Hudson	Hudson
Stankovic	Smith
Holmes-Dennis	Holmes-Dennis
Whitehead	Whitehead
Billing	Billing
Lolley	Lolley
Payne	Payne
van La Parra	Bunn
Quaner	Quaner

Redknapp didn't coerce anyone to change a team. He was giving his opinion on what he might do in similar circumstances. How that can be construed as somehow forcing Huddersfield's hand is laughable.

The EFL rule exists, in my view, to create some notion of fair play so that the integrity of the league cannot be called into question.

It is enforceable; with fines, and a slap on the wrist. The EFL should tweak it's rule to match that of the Premier League's 25 man squad rule, with exceptions for younger players.

Contacting the EFL, although admirable, is a fools errand, and smells of desperation. Birmingham won't be punished, they won't lose points, the game will not be mandated to be replayed.

 

 

Hard to argue with that Speedy, although some will have a bloody good go.

And so I don't find myself stuck on one side of the debate, of course I hope that the EFL do something to help Rovers.

I just don't think that they should.

[den]

1 hour ago, Batman. said:

I know the rule, but it's a non-starter unfortunately. Who at the FA is qualified to start telling managers who their strongest team is? 

They don't tell the clubs who to pick, but as I keep saying, they reserve the right to punish clubs who are obviously putting out teams that are much weaker than need be.

and rightly so as well. 

[Batman.]

Just now, den said:

They don't tell the clubs who to pick, but as I keep saying, they reserve the right to punish clubs who are obviously putting out teams that are much weaker than need be.

and rightly so as well. 

I think he's justified to put out a slightly weaker team to preserve their own interests. As speedy pointed out, more or less the same team drew with City...

If he had fielded the kids, I'd be with you. Unfortunately, it's a dead duck...

[blueboy3333]

9 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

That team contained 9 of the 11 who played against Birmingham. That team drew with City.

I look forward to seeing it in the Play-Offs.

[LeChuck]

Just now, den said:

They don't tell the clubs who to pick, but as I keep saying, they reserve the right to punish clubs who are obviously putting out teams that are much weaker than need be.

and rightly so as well. 

Agree with this, I think Huddersfield should be punished. 

Not in any way that helps us though because any punishment shouldn't affect Birmingham. Can't deduct them points or force them to replay just because their manager was a bit of a tool in the media. 

[blueboy3333]

12 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

In reply to the specific topic, I still think Wagner did nothing wrong

He quite clearly did. He broke the rules. Rules his club signed up to and will have been aware of.

All the rest is just noise.

 

[speeeeeeedie]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

The fact that we are crap has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

It does though. If Rovers weren't fighting to stay in the division nobody on this board would give two hoots as to what Huddersfield did against Birmingham. I don't remember anyone posting about it in the FA cup game. In years gone by many on this board called for Rovers to "blood the youngsters" in games at the end of a season when there was nothing to play for. That would have weakened the team. Allardyce used to write certain games off before they'd even started.   

So ignoring that, I'd still say that Wagner was well within his rights to change the team. If they get a fine for it they will appeal on the basis of who at the EFL can decide what "strongest 11 is. On appeal the fine will get reduced or even suspended, and the EFL will then change the law to make it in line with the Premier League one.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, speeeeeeedie said:

It does though. If Rovers weren't fighting to stay in the division nobody on this board would give two hoots as to what Huddersfield did against Birmingham. I don't remember anyone posting about it in the FA cup game. In years gone by many on this board called for Rovers to "blood the youngsters" in games at the end of a season when there was nothing to play for. That would have weakened the team. Allardyce used to write certain games off before they'd even started.   

So ignoring that, I'd still say that Wagner was well within his rights to change the team. If they get a fine for it they will appeal on the basis of who at the EFL can decide what "strongest 11 is. On appeal the fine will get reduced or even suspended, and the EFL will then change the law to make it in line with the Premier League one.

Did Wagner break the rules. Yes or No?

[broadsword]

3 hours ago, Batman. said:

They've named a 25 man squad, and named 11 players from that 25 man squad. I'm not sure what they are obliged to do? 

If there were a rule saying that you can only make x amount of changes to your lineup from the previous game, then fine. Otherwise, I can't see a lot wrong?

I would go with this. You can't have the football league telling clubs who to play. 

If games are being intentionally thrown then that is a different matter entirely. 

[Batman.]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Did Wagner break the rules. Yes or No?

No.

[DE.]

Just now, broadsword said:

I would go with this. You can't have the football league telling clubs who to play. 

If games are being intentionally thrown then that is a different matter entirely. 

If they'd put out a "full strength" team they would have probably lost 4-0 like they did at Bristol City...

[donnermeat]

Should all starting 11's be ratified by the EFL? Changing just one regular player is still technically a weakened team, looking at it from that point of view, which would go against said rule. That's how vague the rule is.

And also why it could never be enforced in a serious manner.

[DE.]

In terms of our relegation rivals and Huddersfield, Rotherham and QPR took no points from them, Wigan, Burton, Bristol City and Forest took 3 points, Birmingham took 4 points. We drew both games with them so took 2 points. They've been gifting points to the lower clubs for sure, but that does include us. We got both of our points from them when Coyle was still in charge. How are they in the playoffs?

[den]

For the posters who believe that clubs should be able to field whatever line up they like, - would you be happy for managers of all the teams who simply see avoiding relegation as a success - to regularly field entire second elevens, or under 23 teams against the Chelseas, man U's, spurs etc, while just targeting the games they see as winnable?

[donnermeat]

Unexpected results happen all the time so I don't believe any manager would do that.

I've not said that I like what they have done, nor have I said I think it's right, I think 10 changes is a bit extreme in all honesty. My point has been that even with what rule 24.1 says, the way it is written means that no club could be taken to task over it.

A schoolkid could pick holes in it.