[Archived] If we go into administration...

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Thanks to all concerned who are trying to make some sense out of this financial morass. It's much appreciated.

[Kamy100]

Just now, Brian-Potter said:

It is a very very complicated setup and is further muddied by the fact that they are based in India. I am going to try to get some more accurate information in relation to the whole Venkys group over the next few days. There are a number of significant companies all owned by the Raos, some are part of the "Group" and others are not. The two major players appear to be Venkys India Ltd and Venkateshawra Hatcheries Pvt Ltd. I have looked at the accounts for VIL but still need to look at those for VHPL. It would also appear that the Raos have a property portfolio of staggering proportions as well.

 

The property portfolio is huge and they also have a lot of land in and around Pune which is now worth hundreds of millions.  They do not have billions in the bank but do have assets (property and land) which is worth billions.  My limited understanding is that the loans that they took from State Bank of India are secured against some of the land assets that they have in Pune.  The land that they have is split between Mrs Desai, Venky and Balaji with the bank loans largely secured against some of Balaji's land assets.

[Boz]

With this potential and very likely black hole (BRFC £100m +  bad debt) sat in Venky's accounts, which is as stated traded on various stock exchanges, might be an idea to bring this to the attention of their shareholders, auditors, stock exchanges and Indian Business analysts.  Surely it's unlikely that this debt will ever be repaid and thus should be duly provided for in their accounts? I wonder if this might impact on the share price of Venkys Hatcheries? 

This may account for the do nothing attitude and attempts to sweep it all under the carpet? Positive spin on everything to reassure the markets? 

[lraC]

The reason I say administration is inevitable is simple. The club in the last fans meeting, admitted to borrowing from short term loan companies and interest rates, close to 20% were quoted. Venkys are no longer putting funds in and again this was confirmed at the meeting. A statement  made by Cheston, something along the lines of, we can't rely and expect the owners to keep funding us. It seems as mentioned in another post, that only Balaji, is now interested in the club.  Having sold any player of value to keep the wolves from the door, last season, the last being Duffy, we now have no players left of significant value. It has already been mentioned that we will receive £5 million less from Sky for being in league one and we are certainly going to sell fewer season tickets and will have smaller gates. Once we have less coming in than going out and nothing to sell and no one to borrow from, we will start to fail to meet our payments. I have heard rumours already that some suppliers have not been paid, one of them, I understand being the pie supplier, based in Clayton.

I work in the financial services industry, I am not an accountant, but this is just straight forward Income to expenditure planning, like any household, but on a bigger scale.

[lraC]

Just now, Boz said:

With this potential and very likely black hole (BRFC £100m +  bad debt) sat in Venky's accounts, which is as stated traded on various stock exchanges, might be an idea to bring this to the attention of their shareholders, auditors, stock exchanges and Indian Business analysts.  Surely it's unlikely that this debt will ever be repaid and thus should be duly provided for in their accounts? I wonder if this might impact on the share price of Venkys Hatcheries? 

This may account for the do nothing attitude and attempts to sweep it all under the carpet? Positive spin on everything to reassure the markets? 

I think one of our supporters is attempting to buy enough VH shares to allow him to attend a shareholders meeting. The idea being that this can be brought up and presented to all and sundry. It is a good idea and one that could work.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I'd say Marshall was the last player we sold for real money. None of the current squad with a couple of exceptions are worth more than a handful of beans.

[lraC]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I'd say Marshall was the last player we sold for real money. None of the current squad with a couple of exceptions are worth more than a handful of beans.

I had forgotten about Marshall, although I think we got a pittance, due to his contract being almost at an end.

[Butty]

If Cairney goes for 10 million to Newcastle this summer which has been rumoured. I'd expect we'd have put a sell on clause on his sale as we did with Rochina and Martin Olsson so that will be a small bit of income for the scumbags. Doesn't change the fact we will be in Administration within the next 2 years max.

[Brian-Potter]

I agree with most of what has been said, the black hole in the accounts that needs plugging and the limited funding by the owners in recent times is fact and something will have to give or a solution found.

What I am saying is when it comes to the crunch I don't believe that the owners will allow administration to happen. Whether the gap is plugged by a cash injection or further borrowing against assets in India we don't know.

If anyone wants an example of the extent of the Raos business empire then simply look at the list of companies of which Mrs Desai is a director.

https://site2corp.com/in/anuradha-jitendra-desai

 

 

 

[lraC]

Just now, Brian-Potter said:

I agree with most of what has been said, the black hole in the accounts that needs plugging and the limited funding by the owners in recent times is fact and something will have to give or a solution found.

What I am saying is when it comes to the crunch I don't believe that the owners will allow administration to happen. Whether the gap is plugged by a cash injection or further borrowing against assets in India we don't know.

If anyone wants an example of the extent of the Raos business empire then simply look at the list of companies of which Mrs Desai is a director.

https://site2corp.com/in/anuradha-jitendra-desai

 

 

 

In my view the only way now is for the owners to have an about turn and pump some more money in. If only Balaji is interested and the others are not prepared to fund this any more, then the Rao business empire would be irrelevant.

By the way Brian, are you involved, or were you involved in Wesham Road Runners?

[Brian-Potter]

 No that wasn't me IraC.

That is really the sum of it though, unless the owners have or come up with a solution then administration is inevitable. I just don't see them allowing that to happen, and whilst Balaji may well be the only one interested the administration would impact them all financially and in terms of pride as well so whilst I think funds will be provided with reluctance they will be provided. On what terms and from what source is anyone's guess.

[bob fleming]

Just now, lraC said:

By the way Brian, are you involved, or were you involved in Wesham Road Runners?

The Phoenix Club wasn't it?

[Dunnfc]

23 minutes ago, Brian-Potter said:

It is a very very complicated setup and is further muddied by the fact that they are based in India. I am going to try to get some more accurate information in relation to the whole Venkys group over the next few days. There are a number of significant companies all owned by the Raos, some are part of the "Group" and others are not. The two major players appear to be Venkys India Ltd and Venkateshawra Hatcheries Pvt Ltd. I have looked at the accounts for VIL but still need to look at those for VHPL. It would also appear that the Raos have a property portfolio of staggering proportions as well.

 

India don't use decimal points the comma stands after the amount of lacs

[Brian-Potter]

4 minutes ago, Dunnfc said:

India don't use decimal points the comma stands after the amount of lacs

They use commas i believe and depending on how it's written an amount can contain more than one comma.

I'm fairly certain that in this set of accounts the amount is actually posted 4,200 Lakhs or otherwise profit for the period would equate to just £8,000.

 

[Dunnfc]

@Brian-Potter okay if my conversions are correct (should be) then it looks something like this.... for that six month reporting period.

 

[Mike E]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

@Brian-Potter okay if my conversions are correct (should be) then it looks something like this.... for that six month reporting period.

 

So... they profited less than £5m last Sept?

[Dunnfc]

Just now, Mike E said:

So... they profited less than £5m last Sept?

Yes for a six month reporting period so might as well double it for the annual turn over and profit. That's venkys india wasn't it Brian Potter?

A list of all 28 companies below:

1: Venkateshwara Hatcheries Pvt Ltd: the core business, producing and selling one-day old chicks; makers of feed; providers of diagnostic services; flock management and other support services. Directly or indirectly produces 90 per cent of India’s chickens. Supplies all the chicken to (expanding) chains including KFC, McDonald’s, Pizza Hut. Fascinating fact: India consumes 2.8 chickens and 30 eggs per capita per year, a figure that is very low because of the tradition of vegetarianism and the historical high cost of chicken. In Brazil, for example, the corresponding numbers are 38 chickens and 300 eggs. As India develops and becomes richer, the domestic growth potential alone in an industry totally dominated by the VH Group is massive.

2: Venky’s (India) Ltd: processing and pharma primarily. Most recent report (from independent site).

3: VJ Equipment Ltd: makes all kinds of poultry farming hardware, from incubators to feeder, for home and export markets. More here.

4: VR Equipment Ltd: similar to VJE, different range of products.

5: Poultry Development & Promotion Council: commercial firm related to the National Egg Co-Ordination Committee, effectively an economics rights group for poultry farmers.

6: Eastern Hatcheries Pvt: arm of the hatcheries business.

7: Venka Investments Pvt Ltd: investment firm with interests from property to equipment manufacture.

8: Srivenk Investments Pvt: another investment firm, taking stakes in diverse new ventures, including in Lavasa, a planned new ‘green’ city in the hills between Pune and Mumbai. The Rao family were early (independent) investors but the project is experiencing problems over planning and controversy about land acquisition. The project is not a Rao venture, just one of several they have invested in via Srivenk. Fascinating fact: Lavasa is scheduled to be home to a Nick Faldo golf course, a hockey academy, a Steve Redgrave rowing academy, and a Manchester City football academy. City hope to be the first English club with a permanent India academy facility, but with Lavasa’s schedule now uncertain, Blackburn (who plan their own academy in Pune) could beat City to the punch.

9: Bala Entertainment International Pvt Ltd: produces Bollywood movies including the 2005 smash, Dus, starring Shilpa Shetty. More here.

10: B.V.Biocorp Pvt Ltd: Vaccines / feeds.

11: Venkateshwara Biofeed Ltd: Producer of chicken food, vitamins, supplements and other animal feeds.

12: Venco Research & Breeding Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm. More here.

13: Venkateshwara Research & Breeding Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm.

14: Srivenk Broiler Research & Breeding Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm.

15: Srivenk Layer Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm.

16: Uttara Foods and Feeds Pvt Ltd: Poultry food manufacturer now diversified in human foods.

17: Uttara Poultry & Agri Farms Pvt Ltd: Another feed division.

18: Uttara Hatcheries & Agri Farms Pvt Ltd: Another hatchery division.

19: Uttara Masala Products Pvt Ltd: Consumer goods.

20: Uttara Dairy Food Products Pvt Ltd: Consumer goods.

21: Uttara Biosciences Pvt Ltd: Supplements.

22: Uttara Impex Pvt Ltd: Import-export hub for group operations.

23: Uttara Broiler Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm / research.

24: Banda Broiler Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm / research.

25: Banda Layer Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm / research.

26: Vasu Broiler & Research Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm and associated services to franchisees, customers.

27: Vasu Layer Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm and associated services to franchisees, customers.

28: All-India Poultry Development & Services Pvt Ltd: Technical services, diagnostics, labs

Template all set up now so just find the accounts which you might not as it's not compulsory to publish them in india.

 

[Dunnfc]

Then you have venkys oversees based in Jersey with share capital of 2.5 million.

[lraC]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Then you have venkys oversees based in Jersey with share capital of 2.5 million.

Are the likes of Cobb in Leicester a subsidiary, or totally separate?

[lraC]

VH on their own making less than £10million profit in a year then. Looks like either their other companies need to be making big sums, or as we thought, the only way of funding us is borrowing and that may no longer be an option.

[Dunnfc]

Just now, lraC said:

Are the likes of Cobb in Leicester a subsidiary, or totally separate?

Vantress Cobb own 40 percent of Venco research with Venkys owning 60 percent

[lraC]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Vantress Cobb own 40 percent of Venco research with Venkys owning 60 percent

Cheers

[RV Blue]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Yes for a six month reporting period so might as well double it for the annual turn over and profit. That's venkys india wasn't it Brian Potter?

A list of all 28 companies below:

1: Venkateshwara Hatcheries Pvt Ltd: the core business, producing and selling one-day old chicks; makers of feed; providers of diagnostic services; flock management and other support services. Directly or indirectly produces 90 per cent of India’s chickens. Supplies all the chicken to (expanding) chains including KFC, McDonald’s, Pizza Hut. Fascinating fact: India consumes 2.8 chickens and 30 eggs per capita per year, a figure that is very low because of the tradition of vegetarianism and the historical high cost of chicken. In Brazil, for example, the corresponding numbers are 38 chickens and 300 eggs. As India develops and becomes richer, the domestic growth potential alone in an industry totally dominated by the VH Group is massive.

2: Venky’s (India) Ltd: processing and pharma primarily. Most recent report (from independent site).

3: VJ Equipment Ltd: makes all kinds of poultry farming hardware, from incubators to feeder, for home and export markets. More here.

4: VR Equipment Ltd: similar to VJE, different range of products.

5: Poultry Development & Promotion Council: commercial firm related to the National Egg Co-Ordination Committee, effectively an economics rights group for poultry farmers.

6: Eastern Hatcheries Pvt: arm of the hatcheries business.

7: Venka Investments Pvt Ltd: investment firm with interests from property to equipment manufacture.

8: Srivenk Investments Pvt: another investment firm, taking stakes in diverse new ventures, including in Lavasa, a planned new ‘green’ city in the hills between Pune and Mumbai. The Rao family were early (independent) investors but the project is experiencing problems over planning and controversy about land acquisition. The project is not a Rao venture, just one of several they have invested in via Srivenk. Fascinating fact: Lavasa is scheduled to be home to a Nick Faldo golf course, a hockey academy, a Steve Redgrave rowing academy, and a Manchester City football academy. City hope to be the first English club with a permanent India academy facility, but with Lavasa’s schedule now uncertain, Blackburn (who plan their own academy in Pune) could beat City to the punch.

9: Bala Entertainment International Pvt Ltd: produces Bollywood movies including the 2005 smash, Dus, starring Shilpa Shetty. More here.

10: B.V.Biocorp Pvt Ltd: Vaccines / feeds.

11: Venkateshwara Biofeed Ltd: Producer of chicken food, vitamins, supplements and other animal feeds.

12: Venco Research & Breeding Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm. More here.

13: Venkateshwara Research & Breeding Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm.

14: Srivenk Broiler Research & Breeding Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm.

15: Srivenk Layer Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Breeding farm.

16: Uttara Foods and Feeds Pvt Ltd: Poultry food manufacturer now diversified in human foods.

17: Uttara Poultry & Agri Farms Pvt Ltd: Another feed division.

18: Uttara Hatcheries & Agri Farms Pvt Ltd: Another hatchery division.

19: Uttara Masala Products Pvt Ltd: Consumer goods.

20: Uttara Dairy Food Products Pvt Ltd: Consumer goods.

21: Uttara Biosciences Pvt Ltd: Supplements.

22: Uttara Impex Pvt Ltd: Import-export hub for group operations.

23: Uttara Broiler Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm / research.

24: Banda Broiler Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm / research.

25: Banda Layer Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm / research.

26: Vasu Broiler & Research Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm and associated services to franchisees, customers.

27: Vasu Layer Breeder Farm Pvt Ltd: Farm and associated services to franchisees, customers.

28: All-India Poultry Development & Services Pvt Ltd: Technical services, diagnostics, labs

Template all set up now so just find the accounts which you might not as it's not compulsory to publish them in india.

 

So the company that is listed on the stock market (Venky's India Ltd) isn't even their main business? Venky's India Ltd's share price has tripled since January interestingly.

[tomphil]

No wonder they call her the queen of the poultry industry and no wonder she can't be bothered piddling about with football. If only she'd known Bradford City are called the Bantams. 

[Brian-Potter]

Yes the balance sheet I enclosed is for Venkys India Ltd.

The list of companies within the group or which the owners are the majority shareholder is extensive and realistically I don't think any of us have the time or information to obtain a complete picture of the whole setup.

Also, if there was administration for the Club or any of the Venkys companies (which I just don't see happening) untangling the whole thing would be a colossal task.