[Archived] Manchester Bombing

[blueboy3333]

3 hours ago, Steve Moss said:

Or the terrorists would be dead within seconds.  Armed citizens can return fire.

It's not a video game, Steve. Thankfully, we don't have 'armed citizens' and that's why we don't have mass shootings. Guns often get in to the wrong hands which is why you have regular mass shootings. Surely those shouldn't happen if there are 'armed citizens'?

[joey_big_nose]

This guy seems to know what he is talking about and has an plan which sounds, on the surface at least, potentially effective.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/four-point-plan-to-defeat-islamist-terrorists/?utm_source=Direct

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

It's not a video game, Steve. Thankfully, we don't have 'armed citizens' and that's why we don't have mass shootings. Guns often get in to the wrong hands which is why you have regular mass shootings. Surely those shouldn't happen if there are 'armed citizens'?

I wouldn't waste your time. There are few things better evidenced than access to firearms in the US directly contributing to vastly the highest murder rate in the developed world, but Stevo will quite happily tell you the sky is green for eternity.

It's a dispiriting exercise.

[AllRoverAsia]

Saudi and others cut ties with Qatar.

Deflection of terrorism funding concerns? They have chosen well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/05/saudi-arabia-and-bahrain-break-diplomatic-ties-with-qatar-over-terrorism

[perthblue02]

Always worth a watch (apparently features one of the terrorists from the London incident)

 

[blueboy3333]

Just now, joey_big_nose said:

I wouldn't waste your time. There are few things better evidenced than access to firearms in the US directly contributing to vastly the highest murder rate in the developed world, but Stevo will quite happily tell you the sky is green for eternity.

It's a dispiriting exercise.

I would just like him to answer the question why there are so many mass shootings in the US if there are also 'armed citizens' ready to protect each other? It doesn't make sense.

[blueboy3333]

Tim Farron opinion piece on May and her record on counter-terrorism

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/05/theresa-may-trusted-counter-terrorism-policy

"Let’s be clear: fewer police on the beat means fewer conversations, less information being passed on and less knowledge about who’s who, and who needs to be kept under surveillance"

[perthblue02]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Tim Farron opinion piece on May and her record on counter-terrorism

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/05/theresa-may-trusted-counter-terrorism-policy

"Let’s be clear: fewer police on the beat means fewer conversations, less information being passed on and less knowledge about who’s who, and who needs to be kept under surveillance"

And yet it would be so much easier to keep an eye on those on the watch list in one place, but hey ho

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

I would just like him to answer the question why there are so many mass shootings in the US if there are also 'armed citizens' ready to protect each other? It doesn't make sense.

He's got an idealogical rather than evidential/analytical view. Making sense one way or the other isn't the perspective he is working from.

[K-Hod]

4 hours ago, Steve Moss said:

I'm a patriotic American and former Marine whose direct paternal ancestor immigrated from Lancaster to what is now the USA in the 1640s.  I own and wear several Rovers shirts.  I do so as I like the Rovers, like the club's history and like the area where my family originally came from.  Otto has similar reasons for his German badge.

Good grief Steve, it was only a light-hearted comment and he explained that to me himself....

[K-Hod]

8 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Saudi and others cut ties with Qatar.

Deflection of terrorism funding concerns? They have chosen well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/05/saudi-arabia-and-bahrain-break-diplomatic-ties-with-qatar-over-terrorism

Saudi Arabia moralising, glass houses and all that.

[K-Hod]

6 hours ago, Steve Moss said:

Or the terrorists would be dead within seconds.  Armed citizens can return fire.

It's like watching Brasseye sometimes on here.

Why would anyone need to take a gun with them to the pub? In case someone spills a beer on you and you want to show them who's boss? 

There perhaps is a case for Police carrying firearms, that I'll grant you, but if citizens had guns on Saturday, then it's perhaps safe to assume the terrorists would have had access to firearms as well. That would have been like an even worse battlefield on the streets of our capital and most definitely a higher body count. I sometimes wonder why some Americans have such a blindspot when it comes to firearms.....

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, joey_big_nose said:

He's got an idealogical rather than evidential/analytical view. Making sense one way or the other isn't the perspective he is working from.

Armed citizens are actual and not theory. Steve's posts make sense to me and it helps that he can spell big words.

[DE.]

Arming citizens is a recipe for disaster, and if that was ever legalised in the UK I would be looking to leave. What an abhorrent regression that would be. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

We had one guy get " accidentally " shot in the head by trained marksmen on Saturday. Imagine what it would have been like with " armed citizens " joining in the crossfire on a dark Saturday night after a few pints !

I don't follow shootings in America anymore, it's pointless. However I don't recall many incidents were " armed citizens " got involved to any effect.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, perthblue02 said:

And yet it would be so much easier to keep an eye on those on the watch list in one place, but hey ho

Tried that in Northern Ireland. It was counter productive. Good guys got pulled in with the bad guys. They turned into bad guys whilst they were banged up. It also @#/? off the families and acquaintances of the good guys. Next thing you know the whole population is against you.

Try again.

[joey_big_nose]

8 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Armed citizens are actual and not theory. Steve's posts make sense to me and it helps that he can spell big words.

I wasn't debating whether or not armed citizens exist. Of course they do. The point is there is no evidence they decrease murders. Indeed they raise the death toll markedly, as criminals are more likely to be heavily armed themselves as they access the guns through the same channels as citizens.

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, joey_big_nose said:

I wasn't debating whether or not armed citizens exist. Of course they do. The point is there is no evidence they decrease murders. Indeed they raise the death toll markedly, as criminals are more likely to be heavily armed themselves as they access the guns through the same channels as citizens.

Understand now thanks.

I maybe better clarify that I find Steve's posts make sense in that I can follow and understand them.

It most certainly does not mean that I want armed UK Citizens.

Armed UK Police in anti terrorism activities and Army will do for me.

[perthblue02]

18 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Tried that in Northern Ireland. It was counter productive. Good guys got pulled in with the bad guys. They turned into bad guys whilst they were banged up. It also @#/? off the families and acquaintances of the good guys. Next thing you know the whole population is against you.

Try again.

Uhmm the whole population was against internment , can you give the source for that? And it has been previously posted that this is not on the scale of the IRA or same basis (at leat the IRA had some morals ,Calling in before attacks etc)so lets drop the history aspect if that is the case.

 

What are the main activities that lead to radicalisation in the UK

One to one talks (interned so they can not do that)

Internet chat - (interned so they can not participate in that)

Handing out leaflets etc (interned so they can not do that)

Visiting Jihadi lands - They will not be able to do that.

Preaching . meeting in radical mosques (They can not take part in that)

Lets have a look at what else they can not do when interned , oh yes,  participate in any terror attacks bit of a big one that, although not a problem to some people it seems

Other benefits, Prevention

Once it is common knowledge that if you participate in anything that is deemed a terror threat (within the current Law) you will be interned, obviously will not deter all.

 

Will it stop all the nutters -no, Will it  go a long way to denting  the known problem within a short time scale - yes

Will it free up resources to spread the net further - yes

 

Will it annoy some bleeding hearts - obviously ,but a price worth paying for the safety of the majority of the UK, 

Will there be cries of racism, yes but they will be wrong as there are white jihadists on the list that will be interned

Will the potential terrorists love it? , probably not but they will have their own little caliphate on Dartmoor and live in the 8th century in peace. Of course they will able to keep their little fictional story book to carry on learning their warped take on it.

 

Obviously there are a lot of other things that can be done with a long term view and with the current main source of the problem in the UK fenced off these other long term initiatives can start to take root. 

 

A draconian/ barbaric measure?, nowhere near, chopping somebodys head off or killing innocent people in the name of a man in the sky is barbaric. It is a civil measure so that the general public can go about their day life without a threat.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The vast majority of the Catholic population of Northern Ireland ended up against internment. Given that the security forces would be hoping to gain information and intelligence on IRA activities from within this section of the Northern Irish population internment was counter productive.

it's simple really - did terrorist activity in Northern Ireland -.1)  Go down after internment ? 2) Go up after internment ?

Most high ranking British army officers who were involved at the time admit internment was a failure.

[perthblue02]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The vast majority of the Catholic population of Northern Ireland ended up against internment. Given that the security forces would be hoping to gain information and intelligence on IRA activities from this section of the Northern Irish population internment was counter productive.

it's simple really - did terrorist activity in Northern Ireland -.1)  Go down after internment ? 2) Go up after internment ?

Most high ranking British army officers who were involved at the time admit internment was a failure.

AS mentioned this is not the Irish conflct, it is an whole new ball game .

Times have changed and so as the Terrorism act

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, perthblue02 said:

AS mentioned this is not the Irish conflct, it is an whole new ball game .

The principle is exactly the  same. In an intelligence led conflict you can't afford to alienate your sources of information. 

You only have to look at how many of the people arrested recently have been later released without charge. Presumably they've committed no crimes. Under internment they'd be held until we got around to letting them go. Could be 3 months, could be 6 months, could be longer  but sooner or later they have to be released. You've just created a person with an extended family with a serious grievance against Britain.  Bang goes any information you may have got.

[perthblue02]

So Tyrone , quite happy to let potential terrorists walk the streets? 

 Quite happy with the information that I have got ,thank you.

[dave birch]

30 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The principle is exactly the  same. In an intelligence led conflict you can't afford to alienate your sources of information. 

You only have to look at how many of the people arrested recently have been later released without charge. Presumably they've committed no crimes. Under internment they'd be held until we got around to letting them go. Could be 3 months, could be 6 months, could be longer  but sooner or later they have to be released. You've just created a person with an extended family with a serious grievance against Britain.  Bang goes any information you may have got.

TS, the Germans are doing exactly that, arresting people on suspicion, and if they feel they are a danger, then they are deporting them, even if they were born in Germany and deporting them to their parents original homeland if they were born outside of Germany.

I did post a link earlier.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, perthblue02 said:

So Tyrone , quite happy to let potential terrorists walk the streets? 

 Quite happy with the information that I have got ,thank you.

Like I said earlier, there are no simple solutions to this. I can't see any point in using discredited measures that will only make matters worse.