[Archived] Manchester Bombing

[Batman.]

Just now, otto man said:

Apology accepted. Thank you. Mike you are confusing me with another poster. At no time did I say that. I have muslim friends, I am myself an immigrant as you can see from my status. A racist bigot?, NO! Tired of people automatically trying to silence those who express outrage at this kind of behaviour? YES, YES, A thousand times yes!  I do think what was meant was a ban on all religions, as in a secular state and unfortunately I'm getting to the point that I think it's the only solution.

France is a secular state. 

Or are you suggesting taking away the freedom to be religious? You really think that would stop these things?

[Dunnfc]

Just now, Phil T said:

I do not agree with religion on a personal level but, as @Glenn has already alluded to, it's something that many people live by as a moral compass, and I do know that is fact from my personal circles. The idea of simply taking that away from the majority of people who are religious and nonviolent is alien and frightening to me. It flies in the face of what our western societies are built on - freedom.

Perhaps we should flip this on its head a little. I know for a fact that video gaming can, on the rare occasion, make people violent, tribal, angry, and hateful. It certainly has the capacity to evoke any one of those traits, and I'm sure most gamers would tell you that they've felt anger at one point or another when gaming. There have been cases where people have been murdered over it, and cases where people have called for the banning of kill-related games (GTA, Call of Duty, etc.). Religion isn't the only large-scale activity that you can attribute some negative traits to.

If we start to ban religions because a minority abuse it in order to kill, then I wonder where it would stop. No... That's really a route that I don't want to contemplate. Let's figure this out and retain our freedom of choice, please.

Good post analogy of video games is relevant too but those games tend to be over 18, for many Muslim extremists the brain washing starts early by disturbed parents and unofficial school policies

[otto man]

Just now, Phil T said:

I do not agree with religion on a personal level but, as @Glenn has already alluded to, it's something that many people live by as a moral compass, and I do know that is fact from my personal circles. The idea of simply taking that away from the majority of people who are religious and nonviolent is alien and frightening to me. It flies in the face of what our western societies are built on - freedom.

Perhaps we should flip this on its head a little. I know for a fact that video gaming can, on the rare occasion, make people violent, tribal, angry, and hateful. It certainly has the capacity to evoke any one of those traits, and I'm sure most gamers would tell you that they've felt anger at one point or another when gaming. There have been cases where people have been murdered over it, and cases where people have called for the banning of kill-related games (GTA, Call of Duty, etc.). Religion isn't the only large-scale activity that you can attribute some negative traits to.

If we start to ban religions because a minority abuse it in order to kill, then I wonder where it would stop. No... That's really a route that I don't want to contemplate. Let's figure this out and retain our freedom of choice, please.

I don't think that to be secular means banning religion full stop. However I do think that removing it from the public domain and banning public displays of religious paraphernalia could, managed correctly, go some way to making the radicilisation of individuals a lot more difficult. I do however see this as a last resort. I personally would prefer to see better integration and less divides within communities.

[roverandout]

This country fought in two world wars to bring peace to europe. Now we have another threat which is killing innocent people so we should just sit back and keep quite in case we offend a religion which has done nothing but alienate most of the western world? We have bent over backwards to welcome these people into our society giving them things western people wouldnt get.  Now they see this as a chance to wipe our values out. A poll had around 70% of muslims who wanted sharia law in this country. Thats where it will start.  Who knows where it will end? We cant keep sitting back in fear of upsetting a minority which will soon become a majority.

[Guest]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Good post analogy of video games is relevant too but those games tend to be over 18, for many Muslim extremists the brain washing starts early by disturbed parents and unofficial school policies

I can tell you, the amount of times I've heard a sub-10 year old on Xbox Live playing those sort of games online...! That's another issue, of course, but a lot of kids play violent video games that are far beyond their level of maturity. Thinking about it, a "well-behaved" 11-year old stuck her middle fingers up at me the other day! Don't underestimate kids, even the "good" ones... 

[JBiz]

6 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Of course a religion is to blame. Islam. Count the number of incidents relating to this religion of peace

So absolve the actual murderers of blame in favour of giving them the excuse? 

[Glenn]

8 minutes ago, roverandout said:

I mean against extreme islam but im sure the innocents are somewhat as guilty as the terrorists as have any of them ever spoken out against this scum and i bet some of them new about the potential terrorist acts and kept quiet

How many terrorists do you know? What makes you think your community is any different to the bombers, these people don't generally go around advertising it as you know what, people try and stop them! 

Did people brand the friends and family and Thomas Mair, Raoul Moat and Derrick Birds get guilt by association for not shopping them when they unexpectedly took lives? 

As Kamy mentioned earlier, there may have once been a head-in-the-sand approach to it being possible in each particular community, but times have changed.

It sounds like you're advocating persecution of the innocent based on nothing more than a 'they're all the same' attitude. 

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

A 23 year from Manchester has been arrested in connection with last night's slaughter of the innocents.

If found guilty the death penalty should be reintroduced and he should be made an example of.

Enough is enough,People want direct action with this.

Que apologists and terrorist sympathizers...............

[DE.]

Just now, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

A 23 year from Manchester has been arrested in connection with last night's slaughter of the innocents.

If found guilty the death penalty should be reintroduced and he should be made an example of.

Enough is enough,People want direct action with this.

Que apologists and terrorist sympathizers...............

What if a few years later it turns out he was innocent? "Oh well"? 

Alternatively, what if killing this person makes them a martyr and encourages even more violence?

A brief satisfaction for bloodlust isn't the answer here, imo. 

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

It's not 'bloodlust' it's justice rightly done and sends out a clear message terrorism in any form will not be tolerated in this Country.

But deep down I know the DP won't be reintroduced...too much red tape,too many bleeding heart apologists.

Europe is wide open to the Islamic Extremists,it's open day for them.

Terrible times.

[DE.]

If we reintroduce the death penalty because of terrorism, then IMO we are dragging ourselves down to their level and we have let them get a win. I strongly believe we should protect our values as a free, civilised society, and as far as the UK is concerned (along with most other developed, democratic countries) that includes not putting other humans to death. 

Even in the US inmates on death row are there for decades. This is mainly to ensure that there is as little doubt as possible before the convicted is killed. What you're suggesting is a quick execution based on a public trial which would be about as fair as the Salem Witch Trials. I can't get behind that. The perpetrators of these acts deserve punishment, unquestionably, but until we have omniscient jurors I don't see the death penalty is an acceptable option. If it means that it could cost the life of even one innocent person then the risk is too great. 

 

[Kamy100]

Like I said earlier I can only talk about the situation in Blackburn. 

After 7/7 a number of the younger generation got together and agreed that we need to start influencing the mosque committees who were dominated by the “older” generation who had very much adopted the “head in the sand approach” and as community we were at a massive crossroads, sitting on our hands and doing nothing was simply not an option. 

Over the last 10 year the mosque system has been completely overhauled, there are proper curriculum’s in place, there are regular sessions in the majority of mosques where acts of terror are discussed and kids are given examples from the Quran and other religious texts of why these are acts are not tolerated within Islam. Also crucially the majority of kids are taught by imams who were born and educated in the UK (previously the practice was to bring in fully trained imams from abroad).  These imams will have been through approved training via the British Council of Mosques and can communicate with the young people at level the imams who come from outside the county cannot.  Also as I said previously there is much more co-operation with the police. 

What we are fighting is an ideology and one that I believe we can’t beat with violence.  We will beat it via Education.  That is to educate the young people to turnaway from, challenge and report extremist ideologies.  Back in 2007 we all said that this was not something that could be achieved overnight, there was/is no quick fix it could take decades to defeat this ideology.

However today is not the day for talking about these issues or apportioning blame, there will be plenty of time for that in weeks and months to come.  Today is a day to show respect and offer help to those who have been directly affected by this horrific act of violence. 

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

'Costing the lives of Innocents DE'? 

[Glenn]

1 hour ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

Que apologists and terrorist sympathizers...............

What makes you think there are either here? Just because I think tarring 1.6bn people with the same brush as a handful of extremists nutters, is insane and unfair, it doesn't mean I have any sympathy at all with the villainous scum who take the lives of others, much less kids. Or those that aide or abet them or otherwise protect them.

 

 

[DE.]

Just now, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

'Costing the lives of Innocents DE'? 

There's no proof that the death penalty would save lives, SG. Terrorists already know we don't tolerate acts of mass murder or terror in general. It's written into the laws of our society. They aren't doing this because they think we will tolerate it. These are people who put on vests and blow themselves up - why in the world would the death penalty deter them? 

If anything I think reintroducing the death penalty could up the violence and cost even more innocent lives. 

[JAL]

Extremely disappointing from our security services that this bomb has been allowed to go ahead now ending up with them going into reactive mode and to add insult to injury we've got Donald el presidente spouting his bull on the incident.

 

[Batman.]

16 minutes ago, Steve1 said:

Send batman in to save the world...get real man!!

Unfortunately the quoted is uncapable of providing an actual solution.

He seems to think banning religion is the way forward. I despise religion as a concept, and would favour a secular government and school system.

But this wouldn't solve extremism.

[Audax]

Oh yes, as usual those wanting to give all religions a black eye are out, those Buddhist vegetarians really pose a threat to society.

[JAL]

Just now, Audax said:

Oh yes, as usual those wanting to give all religions a black eye are out, those Buddhist vegetarians really pose a threat to society.

@#/? to religion .....the government should be made accountable.

[JBiz]

2 hours ago, roverandout said:

This country fought in two world wars to bring peace to europe. Now we have another threat which is killing innocent people so we should just sit back and keep quite in case we offend a religion which has done nothing but alienate most of the western world? We have bent over backwards to welcome these people into our society giving them things western people wouldnt get.  Now they see this as a chance to wipe our values out. A poll had around 70% of muslims who wanted sharia law in this country. Thats where it will start.  Who knows where it will end? We cant keep sitting back in fear of upsetting a minority which will soon become a majority.

You are talking absolute guff. The Second World War was fought because a tyrant persecuted a religious group, your example couldn't be any more ironic.

A religion that's done nothing but alienate the western world? Can you explain what you mean? I was born and raised in east lancs, and ive never been persecuted, alienated or forced to lose identity/culture because of a religion. Quoting random polls and percentage without substance prooves nothing.

A minority that will soon become a majority? That's what it always boils down to, immigration. If the majority of people thought like you, I'd be ashamed to call myself British. Thank god most people are tolerant, thoughtful, and morally strong.

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

It's not 'bloodlust' it's justice rightly done and sends out a clear message terrorism in any form will not be tolerated in this Country.

But deep down I know the DP won't be reintroduced...too much red tape,too many bleeding heart apologists.

Europe is wide open to the Islamic Extremists,it's open day for them.

Terrible times.

If you think the death penalty is a deterrent for suicide bombers, I'd suggest returning to the drawing board.

[Dreyski]

Excellent response by the locals:

The community that rushed to help

[matt83]

21 minutes ago, Audax said:

Oh yes, as usual those wanting to give all religions a black eye are out, those Buddhist vegetarians really pose a threat to society.

I wouldn't say all religions but out of all religious groups christians, Jews, sikhs, hindus, buddhists, quakers even bloody Scientologists none are targeting innocent civilians on a regular basis. And it is regular these days. But consistently one is. Now I DO NOT believe there's something fundamentally wrong in the head with muslims. 2 billion aren't all bad eggs.

But there is clearly a big problem with Islam. In my opinion as an outsider it seems there's religious leaders who interpret the Quran as the religion of peace but others interpret the Quran as their duty to cause mayhem. So without reading it myself perhaps if it's that vague about what it demands of its followers to such extremes I would say the Quran itself incites racial hatred particularly if some of its devotees use it as justification for jihad. So maybe there needs to be one categorical definitive interpretation on what it means to be Muslim.  

1 hour ago, JAL said:

Extremely disappointing from our security services that this bomb has been allowed to go ahead now ending up with them going into reactive mode and to add insult to injury we've got Donald el presidente spouting his bull on the incident.

 

When all the dust has settled on this no doubt it'll be a British born Muslim known to the authorities. Who can't be touched because infringes on his human rights. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

A 23 year from Manchester has been arrested in connection with last night's slaughter of the innocents.

If found guilty the death penalty should be reintroduced and he should be made an example of.

Enough is enough,People want direct action with this.

Que apologists and terrorist sympathizers...............

Birmingham Six, Guildford Four. These names mean anything to you ? That's Ten innocent people you would have hung. You need to get a grip, over reaction in our civilised society is exactly what they want to happen.

[Amo]

9 hours ago, Biz said:

The people who did it are not Muslim. They might purport to be, they might use it as their excuse but when we point fingers at an entire group of people because of the actions of a few, we end up doing exactly what the scum wants.

Who died and made you an imam, Biz?

Do you even know what Islam espouses? It could be argued that these jihadists are more 'Muslim' than the moderates.