[Archived] Mowbray stays as manager

[tomphil]

Stats also say we had the best goal poacher in the championship and the best target man in the championship both who had an extremely high goal to chance conversion rate when they were in their pomp.

The odd chances created were gobbled up often in the last 10 mins AKA right good go time., Not so recently when similar very rare but very good chances have dropped to Samuel or Dack.

Lets not pretend that the football under Bowyer mostly wasn't anything other than mind numbing unadventurous basic stuff designed to contain the opposition and rely on Rhodes or gestede plundering something or a flash of quality from Cairney or Marshall.

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

13/14 - Rovers were 5th highest scorers in the Championship

14/15 - 10th highest

 

And yet I'ĺl bet you can count the number of times we won consecutive games over that period on one hand. Let alone 3 or more.

For one of those seasons at least we had 2 very prolific strikers and to the best of my recollection we conceded almost as many as we scored.

 A thrill fest it was not.

[blueboy3333]

5 minutes ago, tomphil said:

The odd chances created were gobbled up often in the last 10 mins AKA right good go time., 

Again, no basis in fact. As many of our goals were scored in the first half under Bowyer as the 2nd half. And not that many in the last 10 minutes:-

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/blackburn-rovers/2013-14/fixtures-and-results.html

[JHRover]

2 hours ago, Biz said:

I've looked and I can't see any answers to; "What is the point of making decisions for no other reason than to simply sustain a facade?" 

I've tried to explain this. The people on the ground at Ewood - especially Mike Cheston and Mr Invisible - are feeling the heat and are trying to maintain an image of a normal club whilst they do whatever it is they are tasked with doing by the Indians. 

The Indians hand down the annual budget, then these two have to do the best they can with it. 

Neither of these two people want to speak to the fans, conduct business in public or face the pressure of being answerable to supporters. Much easier to pay someone else to take it.

This club is not normal. These people are trying to make it appear normal by now and again bringing in advisers/consultants/various other people who talk a good game but last 6-12 months before giving up and the cycle starts again.

Its classic deflection/diversion tactics -fans focus your energy/anger towards the manager/D of F whilst the real culprits get to carry on regardless.

If you don't think these people are capable of such things then fair enough, I think they are capable of it and I think its perfectly reasonable to think someone like Mr Invisible is prepared to appoint a short term fall guy to take the flak to ensure he remains in the shadows free to do as he pleases.

[Tom]

The style of play is very similar to Bowyer, we never seem to actual control a game it's like a game just happens around us most of the time and we sometimes participate in it.

Under Bowyer I thought this was down to Lowe and Williamson a fair bit but it's much the same now even though Smallwood tries.

Whats most frustrating at the moment is in the home games we have lost we have at no point been surging forward relentlessly, even at 0-1 Wimbledon were comfy and it never for a second felt like we would score at any point.

[blueboy3333]

13 hours ago, Ozz said:

/No offence to the guy, as he`s a nice , passionate bloke, and I have a lot of time for him, but he`s not exactly Mastermind material. He`s a tactical Pygmy to be blunt, in my opinion.

“Football tactics are something that I like to think I am astute at" T Mowbray 26/9/17 

 

[islander200]

We are never going to be an attacking force without any pace on the field.We didn't have it with Bowyer and we certainly don't have it under Mowbray.Mowbray should surely have realised that we needed to bring some pace in in the summer,saying that maybe he wants his teams to be slow and one dimensional, he leaves Chapman our one player with genuine pace and someone who can get bums off seats on the bench game after game

[JBiz]

7 hours ago, JHRover said:

I've tried to explain this. The people on the ground at Ewood - especially Mike Cheston and Mr Invisible - are feeling the heat and are trying to maintain an image of a normal club whilst they do whatever it is they are tasked with doing by the Indians. 

The Indians hand down the annual budget, then these two have to do the best they can with it. 

Neither of these two people want to speak to the fans, conduct business in public or face the pressure of being answerable to supporters. Much easier to pay someone else to take it.

This club is not normal. These people are trying to make it appear normal by now and again bringing in advisers/consultants/various other people who talk a good game but last 6-12 months before giving up and the cycle starts again.

Its classic deflection/diversion tactics -fans focus your energy/anger towards the manager/D of F whilst the real culprits get to carry on regardless.

If you don't think these people are capable of such things then fair enough, I think they are capable of it and I think its perfectly reasonable to think someone like Mr Invisible is prepared to appoint a short term fall guy to take the flak to ensure he remains in the shadows free to do as he pleases.

I just can't understand this view JHR, no matter how many times you write it, no matter how it's re-written. 

Why, after so long of not giving a crap what the fans think, actually laughing and joking during a protest, creating all encompassing power points to show their "vision", why would these two now feel "heat" from the fans? It's absurd, it completely ignores actual likelihoods for a made up story.

If they cared about heat from supporters, or questions about their remit- would they have changed the family area? They will continue to (fail to) turn up to supporter meetings with a fresh new 16 page presentation on their vision for the owners "baby"

The idea that the only rationale to seek Rigg is in a fall guy capacity, I just don't come to that conclusion. The current directors are already in a scenario where they "do as they please" so I cannot see the benefit to them this made up scenario brings. Whilst you and me are assured that the club isn't run "normally", I think it takes a creative imagination to think they actively sit around and talk about "how do we make this look normal"...

The reality in my view is much more simple, and involves a lot less assumption. As we agree, they're given a budget/remit from owners; They've been instructed (more likely)or given an ultimatum (less likely) on promotion. They've seen the so-so start, thus asked for some advice/input from someone else.

[gumboots]

Then they'd find a manager to deliver it because it's the manager, not a Dof or whatever his title would be, that makes the real difference

[JBiz]

25 minutes ago, gumboots said:

Then they'd find a manager to deliver it because it's the manager, not a Dof or whatever his title would be, that makes the real difference

What like Lambert? 

[gumboots]

I dont know who but changing the bits round the edges doesn't make a difference.  if you want to win then you buy better players, or, if that's not possible or you think you already have that then you hire a manager who can get the last ounce out of them.  I'm not advocating sacking Mowbray but it seems from reading comments of those who go to matches that they are not always convinced that Mowbray is getting the most he can.  If he's not then keeping him and bringing in some advisor to the guy who isn't actually employed by the club, is not the way to improve.  The way to improve is to find someone who can get more from players.  I had high hopes for Lambert when he came in but it was very soon obvious that it wasn't going to work.  Mowbray was such an improvement on Coyle that we all had at least some hope when he came.  That hope seems to be fading and unless results improve soon, it may be that the only way forward is to roll the dice again and hope this time we roll a six.  A fairly forlorn hope but every now and then you get lucky.

[tomphil]

11 minutes ago, gumboots said:

I dont know who but changing the bits round the edges doesn't make a difference.  if you want to win then you buy better players, or, if that's not possible or you think you already have that then you hire a manager who can get the last ounce out of them.  I'm not advocating sacking Mowbray but it seems from reading comments of those who go to matches that they are not always convinced that Mowbray is getting the most he can.  If he's not then keeping him and bringing in some advisor to the guy who isn't actually employed by the club, is not the way to improve.  The way to improve is to find someone who can get more from players.  I had high hopes for Lambert when he came in but it was very soon obvious that it wasn't going to work.  Mowbray was such an improvement on Coyle that we all had at least some hope when he came.  That hope seems to be fading and unless results improve soon, it may be that the only way forward is to roll the dice again and hope this time we roll a six.  A fairly forlorn hope but every now and then you get lucky.

It's the Venky and friends way of owning and running the club though that just doesn't allow for the correct way to go about it like hire a capable executive and let him run it hiring a manager he feels suitable and signing suitable players for the job.

They want to skirt around all that and be able to ignore it or call the shots themselves whenever it suits in equal measure. The more minions they hire who don't question them and only speak when spoken to the better. Then they ignore it and every so often hold someone accountable for the continuing failure and sack them therefore creating the illusion they are doing something.

Meanwhile the corporation probably uses the books for whatever accounting process is in play and no 'real' money gets lost just numbers crunched and easily absorbed by the empire underpinned by the lenders.

I'm sure they'd like success for the club but it doesn't really matter their business doesn't depend on it so it's just a case of plod on and keep hoping there's and upturn but if not no big deal to them.

[OJRovers]

4 hours ago, Tom said:

The style of play is very similar to Bowyer, we never seem to actual control a game it's like a game just happens around us most of the time and we sometimes participate in it.

Under Bowyer I thought this was down to Lowe and Williamson a fair bit but it's much the same now even though Smallwood tries.

Whats most frustrating at the moment is in the home games we have lost we have at no point been surging forward relentlessly, even at 0-1 Wimbledon were comfy and it never for a second felt like we would score at any point.

Exactly. We don't have our own style of play.

Mowbray has the most expensive squad in the league yet will drop our gameplan  (whatever it is) to adapt to the opposition. E.g. setting up to play LONG BALL against Shrewsbury because of their midfield.

Why not just set up the best way for the players we've got instead of changing it every game.

 

[philipl]

Mowbray did pretty well coming into an already as good as relegated club and putting some impressive results together for us to only go down by 2 goals difference.

Managerially made an awful mess of the first two games which left us chasing the pack somewhat but a run of impressive results against fellow promotion contenders has kept us in touch. 

Yes performances, collectively and individually, are distinctly iffy but keep on getting the wins and confidence will begin to flow. That said, a couple of dogs against Rotherham and Gillingham and the table will be looking really sick irrespective of having a couple of games in hand.

So jury out but overall promising signs for this season. 

[AggyBlue]

I think his 'worst performance of the season' comment came off the back of the fans singing 'Mowbray, Mowbray, sort it out'.

Shifting the blame onto the players?

 

[islander200]

Just now, philipl said:

Mowbray did pretty well coming into an already as good as relegated club and putting some impressive results together for us to only go down by 2 goals difference.

Managerially made an awful mess of the first two games which left us chasing the pack somewhat but a run of impressive results against fellow promotion contenders has kept us in touch. 

Yes performances, collectively and individually, are distinctly iffy but keep on getting the wins and confidence will begin to flow. That said, a couple of dogs against Rotherham and Gillingham and the table will be looking really sick irrespective of having a couple of games in hand.

So jury out but overall promising signs for this season. 

I really would love to know what promising signs you are seeing?Not being rude about it and I don't mean my post to appear condescending but I don't see any signs of promise yet?

We are 10 games in and are no closer to seeing a settled first 11 or style.We have no striker that looks capable of scoring 20 goals a season. When we go behind we don't look like we have any sort of idea how to break teams down.We are giving sloppy goals away.Hardly any pace in the squad.The manager refuses to look at the under 23s for possible solutions. I could go on but all the above is enough to suggest that things don't look promising in the slightest

[47er]

3 hours ago, Biz said:

What like Lambert? 

or Appleton,Berg,Coyle etc etc.Lambert was one of the better ones imo.

At least he had them fit till the owners let him down.

Cue Revidge!

[JHRover]

3 hours ago, Biz said:

I just can't understand this view JHR, no matter how many times you write it, no matter how it's re-written. 

Why, after so long of not giving a crap what the fans think, actually laughing and joking during a protest, creating all encompassing power points to show their "vision", why would these two now feel "heat" from the fans? It's absurd, it completely ignores actual likelihoods for a made up story.

If they cared about heat from supporters, or questions about their remit- would they have changed the family area? They will continue to (fail to) turn up to supporter meetings with a fresh new 16 page presentation on their vision for the owners "baby"

The idea that the only rationale to seek Rigg is in a fall guy capacity, I just don't come to that conclusion. The current directors are already in a scenario where they "do as they please" so I cannot see the benefit to them this made up scenario brings. Whilst you and me are assured that the club isn't run "normally", I think it takes a creative imagination to think they actively sit around and talk about "how do we make this look normal"...

The reality in my view is much more simple, and involves a lot less assumption. As we agree, they're given a budget/remit from owners; They've been instructed (more likely)or given an ultimatum (less likely) on promotion. They've seen the so-so start, thus asked for some advice/input from someone else.

I'm afraid its one or the other. If it was still 2010 then I would almost certainly agree with you that this suggestion appears far fetched or unlikely, if it were still 2015 I might also agree with you. But unfortunately we've got time and experience behind us and on that basis I am now firmly in the camp that there is no intention to recruit staff to improve the club, never has been and never will be. If they are bringing in a D of F/advisor or whatever his made up title will be, it won't be because they've suddenly decided after 7 years that they need more experience on the board.

I think Cheston and Pasha have been feeling the heat. Venkys haven't and never will because they hide away in their Indian palace, cowards they are, and refuse to apologise or be held accountable for their mess, however Cheston and increasingly Pasha don't have that luxury of hiding on the other side of the world. They are in the firing line and don't like it. We've seen unprecedented attempts from Rovers and their lapdogs at the Telegraph to conceal Pasha's identity and true role at the club. From taking down revealing photos from the Telegraph website, a complete wall of silence on the issue, to Cheston's bizarre claims that he didn't know Pasha's name or job title despite having admitted he employed him merely months earlier - there's a whole list of occasions when a transparent, honest organisation would have just admitted who he is, what he does and leave it at that.

It is my belief that in a determined and desperate attempt to shield themselves from grief, anger, abuse (remember how much aggro Cheston has had at these meetings and buckled under the pressure?) that they have decided, possibly in conjunction with their masters in India, that it is worth their while to appoint someone else to take the attention away from them.

Make no mistake, if Rigg or anyone else is appointed as D of F then so begins another cycle of time during which people will plead for patience, give him time to make the changes needed etc. etc. That cycle will last 6-18 months and then he'll be gone and someone else will rock up (new manager or new face on board) who will plead for time and so it continues. Always tomorrow, never today. We've had it with Lambert, Coyle, Senior, Mowbray and now it will be someone else.

Meanwhile those two continue to do the real decision making business behind the scenes with Cheston able to point everyone in the direction of the new guy when questions get asked.

Lets suppose your theory is correct and they appoint Rigg as they are concerned about missing their 'target' of promotion. Do you really think if he makes recommendations to appoint a proper board and let them run the budget and appoint coaching staff that Pasha/Venkys will agree and put that into place? No they won't. So even if my theory isn't correct, it still makes the appointment a waste of time because they know, or should know, what changes are needed yet will not put them in place. Do you think if promotion is missed that Pasha and Cheston will be down the road with Mowbray?

No chance. Those two will remain throughout whilst managers and other faces come and go.

[Dreams of 1995]

7 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I'm afraid its one or the other. If it was still 2010 then I would almost certainly agree with you that this suggestion appears far fetched or unlikely, if it were still 2015 I might also agree with you. But unfortunately we've got time and experience behind us and on that basis I am now firmly in the camp that there is no intention to recruit staff to improve the club, never has been and never will be. If they are bringing in a D of F/advisor or whatever his made up title will be, it won't be because they've suddenly decided after 7 years that they need more experience on the board.

I think Cheston and Pasha have been feeling the heat. Venkys haven't and never will because they hide away in their Indian palace, cowards they are, and refuse to apologise or be held accountable for their mess, however Cheston and increasingly Pasha don't have that luxury of hiding on the other side of the world. They are in the firing line and don't like it. We've seen unprecedented attempts from Rovers and their lapdogs at the Telegraph to conceal Pasha's identity and true role at the club. From taking down revealing photos from the Telegraph website, a complete wall of silence on the issue, to Cheston's bizarre claims that he didn't know Pasha's name or job title despite having admitted he employed him merely months earlier - there's a whole list of occasions when a transparent, honest organisation would have just admitted who he is, what he does and leave it at that.

It is my belief that in a determined and desperate attempt to shield themselves from grief, anger, abuse (remember how much aggro Cheston has had at these meetings and buckled under the pressure?) that they have decided, possibly in conjunction with their masters in India, that it is worth their while to appoint someone else to take the attention away from them.

Make no mistake, if Rigg or anyone else is appointed as D of F then so begins another cycle of time during which people will plead for patience, give him time to make the changes needed etc. etc. That cycle will last 6-18 months and then he'll be gone and someone else will rock up (new manager or new face on board) who will plead for time and so it continues. Always tomorrow, never today. We've had it with Lambert, Coyle, Senior, Mowbray and now it will be someone else.

Meanwhile those two continue to do the real decision making business behind the scenes with Cheston able to point everyone in the direction of the new guy when questions get asked.

Lets suppose your theory is correct and they appoint Rigg as they are concerned about missing their 'target' of promotion. Do you really think if he makes recommendations to appoint a proper board and let them run the budget and appoint coaching staff that Pasha/Venkys will agree and put that into place? No they won't. So even if my theory isn't correct, it still makes the appointment a waste of time because they know, or should know, what changes are needed yet will not put them in place. Do you think if promotion is missed that Pasha and Cheston will be down the road with Mowbray?

No chance. Those two will remain throughout whilst managers and other faces come and go.

The part in bold is key to this in my opinion. Does their reluctance to hire a board stem from the way in which previous employees have spoke about the relationship with the owners? If so, and I truly believe this is true, then perhaps it explains the commitment to this 'shadow board', or man, because they know they can work with Pasha. By "works with" I make the assumption that no matter their decision he will make that happen, regardless of the impact onto the club, fans, employees or stature. He's simply doing their work, not the clubs.

It is for this reason to as why I don't buy this ineptitude argument. It simply doesn't make sense to me that they can, on the one hand, see the benefit of bringing in Rigg to advise Pasha, or Senior to advise Pasha, but not see the sense in hiring real football people on the board. The move to appoint a DoF shows they realise they need experience in the sport but at the same time still work incredibly hard to conceal the true shot callers. Why?

You could simply dismiss all of this by saying they don't care, are inept or have been hoodwinked but those excuses for me ran dry 5 years ago. I am with JHRover in that if we were having this argument in 2010-2012 I'd probably see the rationale in assuming they simply don't have an idea of how to run a club. The fact remains they've been running it now for over 7 years and have bumped paths with the likes of Williams, Myers, Shaw, Hunt and even Agnew since then. All men that know football, regardless of what you may think of some. So to me this argument that they simply don't care what people think doesn't wash with me because, as past events have shown, they have tried to look like they are working for the betterment of the club by hiring said previous employees all the while concealing what is really happening at the club. What will Rigg bring to the table that hasn't already been brought? More importantly when will people realise that Rigg, Myers, Senior or the like are all irrelevant until those type of people have owners they can effectively work with.

You could have the most beautifully crafted puppet in the world but if the person with their hand up its backside is useless so is that puppet.

[tomphil]

Proper board in place and Pascha is out of a job and so are whatever other 'advisors' are lurking about constantly pushing advice that suits their own interests rather than the club.

He's hardly going to go back to India and recommend that is he he's on a right good number. Much easier to bring another pal on board then get rid further down the line saying his advice was useless, not my fault.

[philipl]

1 hour ago, islander200 said:

I really would love to know what promising signs you are seeing?Not being rude about it and I don't mean my post to appear condescending but I don't see any signs of promise yet?

We are 10 games in and are no closer to seeing a settled first 11 or style.We have no striker that looks capable of scoring 20 goals a season. When we go behind we don't look like we have any sort of idea how to break teams down.We are giving sloppy goals away.Hardly any pace in the squad.The manager refuses to look at the under 23s for possible solutions. I could go on but all the above is enough to suggest that things don't look promising in the slightest

Totally agree with you- utterly crap. In fact so completely rubbish we are third in the current form table having ended the unbeaten records of Bradford and Scunthorpe and drawn with Shrewsbury (all away from home).

Big deal yes - but those three are about as big a deal as they come in this wilderness of a forsaken division.

Either we don't sort it out and we bumble around the edge of the play-offs or as you say, Mowbray sorts it out and gets more clued up as to what his best XI and formations are and we might get automatic promotion..

Let's see how we are doing after ten league games?

[Dreams of 1995]

11 minutes ago, philipl said:

Totally agree with you- utterly crap. In fact so completely rubbish we are third in the current form table having ended the unbeaten records of Bradford and Scunthorpe and drawn with Shrewsbury (all away from home).

Big deal yes - but those three are about as big a deal as they come in this wilderness of a forsaken division.

Either we don't sort it out and we bumble around the edge of the play-offs or as you say, Mowbray sorts it out and gets more clued up as to what his best XI and formations are and we might get automatic promotion..

Let's see how we are doing after ten league games?

Means absolutely nothing. Fact remains that after 8 games played we are 9th in the table and 10 points adrift of the league leaders. Ending the unbeaten runs of other teams isn't some big achievement to me, regardless of it being away from home, if we are sat in the mid table position we are in.

Providing we win the next 2 games and everyone else above us loses the highest we could reach is 3rd and that's overturning a 5 goal difference. We have no rooms for mistakes anymore, so let's hope TM doesn't plan on anymore shock home losses against sides like Wimbledon

[Pedro]

15 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

So was the league, which we were 5th highest scorers in, which repudiates your assertion Bowyer took a safety first approach. He clearly didn't.

This takes me back to those heady days in the Championship when we all used to argue this stuff for hours

Bowyer's failings were that he wouldn't push to kill teams off when we had the personnel to do it. I remember a home game against a ten man Birmingham side where his over-caution nearly cost us victory (they hit the underside of the bar late on and luckily it didn't cross the line). He was just a cagey and steady rookie manager who had a very good Championship 11 at his disposal and we should have gone up with the likes of Rhodes, Gestede, Cairney, Marshall, King etc all at the club. But, we refused to appoint a proper manager.

[islander200]

16 minutes ago, philipl said:

Totally agree with you- utterly crap. In fact so completely rubbish we are third in the current form table having ended the unbeaten records of Bradford and Scunthorpe and drawn with Shrewsbury (all away from home).

Big deal yes - but those three are about as big a deal as they come in this wilderness of a forsaken division.

Either we don't sort it out and we bumble around the edge of the play-offs or as you say, Mowbray sorts it out and gets more clued up as to what his best XI and formations are and we might get automatic promotion..

Let's see how we are doing after ten league games?

Not disputing those where good results but it takes the gloss off those results when we fail so miserably against the likes of Wimbledon and Doncaster at home. Like I said hope Mowbray proves me wrong but right now I'm not seeing promising signs

[chaddyrovers]

Venkys don't want a board in place and nothing like what we had before. they clearly don't believe in a board structure and run a board on minimum staff level. Rovers did try to appoint Pasha as CEO in the summer when Coyle was appointed. Source was Nixon and he did reported it at the time

Venkys like to have involved in decisions making at club and don't trust most people

Would I like to see an CEO appoint? yes but clearly under that will never happen and everything is run by Pasha. Will keep going on about a lack of board or CEO and moan on here going to change anything? clearly not