[Archived] Mowbray stays as manager

[JHRover]

Just now, Eddie said:

For starters, what's the point in debating you when you completely misuse and ignore facts? 

We are 12 points off with 2 games in hand. In other words, the other teams had 39 points to play for. It's a decent gap, but if that is cut down to 9 to 6 points it won't look very big. Have a look back through the years and you will see plenty of teams coming from similar positions to win the league, finish second, or go up through the playoffs. We have certainly not ruled ourselves out. 

Again, in projecting future points positions, you have for some reason given Wigan and Shrewsbury 4 more matches than us. 

Finally, I know you don't get promoted for finishing in the playoff spots, but it does give you a chance...a pretty damn good chance. If we are in the playoffs and Wigan have gone up automatically we would be everyone's favourites to make it up. 

I'm not panicking, to do so is idiotic. 

 

Well I am panicking. Or at least I will be soon if things don't pick up.

Other than very brief spells I've seen very little to suggest this manager or squad has any of the ingredients necessary to mount a sustained promotion campaign. You're using lots of numbers to suggest all is not lost at this stage and I agree, it isn't and teams have come from positions similar or worse than ours to go up in the past. That doesn't mean I should be happy with what I've seen so far or believe it is remotely good enough with the resources we have invested into this squad with a publicised expectation of automatic promotion.

Already, less than 25% of the way through the season the top 2 are getting further and further away. The highest position we have occupied is 6th for 2 weeks and other than that we've been below the play-offs.

Not negative, not doom and gloom. Just facts and things have to improve - performances and results - if we want more than a season hovering outside the top 6 talking about pushing in there before eventually falling short.

[martonrover]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Not a murmur mentioned by Cheston. Competent boards would have publically backed the manager with a vote of confidence by now.

To date his performance as manager is deeply unacceptable. I note today's LET harking we have no Devine right in this league of which is true however fans have a Devine right to see a manager be competent enough to get a team fit, tactically well drilled given he's by far and large received high funds both transfer and wage wise in this league and the facilities to develop his coaching at this level.

Cheston is a powerless puppet. The man Mowbray needs to fear is the shadowy Pasha who, I dare say, is currently compiling a shortlist list from his Rothmans 2010 annual.

[Eddie]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Except it's about having standards and your appear to continually decline along with our performance over the last few years.

Which standards would they be? 

My standards have dropped in relation to the quality of player that we currently have. That doesn't change the disappointment that I feel in terms of how far we have fallen, but it's about making a realistic assessment based on where we are now. 

We SHOULD be promoted with the side that we have. I have seen some encouraging performances in the opening 10/11 matches of the season, and I have every reason to believe that we can go on a sustained run that will put us high up the table. 

Ultimately time will tell. I hope you all eat crow when the time comes, and I hope that you'll all own up to the fact that you were wrong. 

If my projections are wrong and my confidence is misplaced, I will do the same. 

[Eddie]

Just now, JHRover said:

Well I am panicking. Or at least I will be soon if things don't pick up.

Other than very brief spells I've seen very little to suggest this manager or squad has any of the ingredients necessary to mount a sustained promotion campaign. You're using lots of numbers to suggest all is not lost at this stage and I agree, it isn't and teams have come from positions similar or worse than ours to go up in the past. That doesn't mean I should be happy with what I've seen so far or believe it is remotely good enough with the resources we have invested into this squad with a publicised expectation of automatic promotion.

Already, less than 25% of the way through the season the top 2 are getting further and further away. The highest position we have occupied is 6th for 2 weeks and other than that we've been below the play-offs.

Not negative, not doom and gloom. Just facts and things have to improve - performances and results - if we want more than a season hovering outside the top 6 talking about pushing in there before eventually falling short.

The only thing that has been resolved during this brief debate is the fact that your ability to quote and produce facts and statistics is seriously lacking. 

 

[AllRoverAsia]

7 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

we have had 4 different managers within the past 2 seasons. Nothing was ever been achieve if this keeps happening. 

I agree we need a manager for a full season or 2. That's is how most clubs achieve success. 

I agree we haven't a great start but we not had awful start either its ok start but with 2 games in hand and if we win both games we will be 4th in the league. 

That's a good assessment and well throughout argument is that

Yes Mowbray has said that but you can get promotion via the playoffs. 

Yes Whittingham does need a bedding in period just like most players do. But I'm sure over a full season he will come good and improve. 

again good points made

Project he is referring to is getting the club back to the premier league eventually. Mention this due the supporter meeting

Good point, which therefore must start with promotion this season

[chaddyrovers]

7 minutes ago, JHRover said:

You don't get promoted by being in the top 6. We are now 12 points off the top 2 after only 11 games of the season. 12 points short when we've only had 33 to play for is a big gap for a team backed to win the league by many. Lets theorise that the next 11 games go exactly as the first 11. We'd have 38 points from 22 matches. But Wigan and Shrewsbury would have 62 points so we'd be 24 points off the pace. I'd argue that by that stage automatic promotion would be gone.

It might happen, it might not. Shrewsbury might slow down, so might we.

Fact is we're losing too many games against teams that we shouldn't be losing to if we want to go up automatically. We're not creating enough, not scoring enough and look fragile at the back, especially vulnerable at home.

I don't think anyone would be moaning if we were sat where Shrewsbury and Wigan currently are. But when you've had a club, manager, players spending all summer talking about getting promoted then l expect substantially better than we've had so far.

but we have 2 games in hand and win both of them and we are only 6 points of top 2 

You really think Wigan and Shrewsbury wont have a bad spell of results. Wigan are set to take over and that could led to possible turmoil as these new owner might want a bigger name than Paul Cook. Shrewsbury will get injuries and with that will they still be able to perform the same?

[JHRover]

Just now, Eddie said:

The only thing that has been resolved during this brief debate is the fact that your ability to quote and produce facts and statistics is seriously lacking. 

 

Only fact I'm interested in is we're not on target to go up and I think we have to go up.

[Dunnfc]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

but we have 2 games in hand and win both of them and we are only 6 points of top 2 

You really think Wigan and Shrewsbury wont have a bad spell of results. Wigan are set to take over and that could led to possible turmoil as these new owner might want a bigger name than Paul Cook. Shrewsbury will get injuries and with that will they still be able to perform the same?

Having lost almost half our games I don't understand on how you expect or become as optimistic as you currently are to win both these games. It's been an appaling start by a team what looks bereft of any idea, any coaching and fitness. Wimbledon showed us up good and proper in respect of desire and fitness.

Mowbray was relegated with us, Clough got the same points with Burton and a more tougher run in, this season TM has continued to falter so I'm not sure how you can be so confident.

[JHRover]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

but we have 2 games in hand and win both of them and we are only 6 points of top 2 

You really think Wigan and Shrewsbury wont have a bad spell of results. Wigan are set to take over and that could led to possible turmoil as these new owner might want a bigger name than Paul Cook. Shrewsbury will get injuries and with that will they still be able to perform the same?

ONLY 6 points off the top 2 IF we win BOTH our games in hand?

I think you're really stretching things now if your plan for our promotion campaign is based on Wigan's potential takeover having destabilising effects on their charge to promotion. Whilst we have idiotic owners the chances are more likely that their management will have the sense to keep Cook in place as they storm to the title.

Likewise Shrewsbury might get injuries, so might we. I'd suggest with our bunch of crocks we're more likely to sustain damaging injuries than they are. No doubt you'll use that as an excuse if it happens even though most people could predict the likes of Mulgrew, Conway, Evans etc. will get injured repeatedly as they always have.

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

but we have 2 games in hand and win both of them and we are only 6 points of top 2 

You really think Wigan and Shrewsbury wont have a bad spell of results. Wigan are set to take over and that could led to possible turmoil as these new owner might want a bigger name than Paul Cook. Shrewsbury will get injuries and with that will they still be able to perform the same?

Why are you assessing our position based on "possible turmoil at Wigan"? That's a strawman argument if I've ever I've heard one.

You are right, we could go up to 6 points from the top 2 if we win our games in hand. However both of our games in hand are teams close to us, meaning that should we lose them, and they ARE loseable, we'll lose any advantage they gave us.

I think what most people are expressing is that TM has made a lot of mistakes so early in the season and, unless you view it with blind optimism, it doesn't exactly look good for a promotion push so far.

Lose to Blackpool & lose to Fleetwood (entirely possible) and we are all of a sudden in a position whereby we've won 6, lost 6. A 50% win rate simply isn't good enough. Win both of those games and it looks better but to almost categorically deny we are not in a risky position at the moment is disingenuous. 

[Eddie]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Having lost almost half our games I don't understand on how you expect or become as optimistic as you currently are to win both these games.

1

Having lost almost half of our games? Again, I fear for some of your ability to process statistics and numbers. 

By that same logic, I will now say: 

Having won nearly two-thirds of our matches we are well on course to finish in the top 2. 

 

 

[martonrover]

Had performances exceeded results I'd be more hopeful. If anything I would say it's been the other way around.

I'm not saying that people who can't regularly attend shouldn't have an opinion, but I think the general level of performance is in many regular attendees thinking.

[Leonard Venkhater]

10 minutes ago, Dunnfc said:

Not a murmur mentioned by Cheston. Competent boards would have publically backed the manager with a vote of confidence by now.

To date his performance as manager is deeply unacceptable. I note today's LET harking we have no Devine right in this league of which is true however fans have a Devine right to see a manager be competent enough to get a team fit, tactically well drilled given he's by far and large received high funds both transfer and wage wise in this league and the facilities to develop his coaching at this level.

I tend to agree.

Phrases like "no divine right" and "we are a lot of moaning s**s"  merely deflect from the awful reality.

What we have in owners, shadow directors and level of performance on the pitch is unacceptable....and I have endured some poor Rovers teams in my time.

 

[Dunnfc]

Just now, Leonard Venkhater said:

I tend to agree.

Phrases like "no divine right" and "we are a lot of moaning s**s"  merely deflect from the awful reality.

What we have in owners, shadow directors and level of performance on the pitch is unacceptable....and I have endured some poor Rovers teams in my time.

 

Bang on as usual. Could you imagine this place if Coyle was coming out with those phrases? If your going to be a team of winners, the attitude needs drumming into everyone, not drumming out.

[DE.]

Fact is if you'd prophesied to the MB in July that by the middle of October we'd be 12 points off 2nd, even with a couple of games in hand, the majority would not have been happy. Even less so when you told them we'd have lost 4 of our first 11 games to teams like Southend, Doncaster, Oldham and AFC Wimbledon. Accepting this start as "good enough" is dangerous and I hope Mowbray doesn't genuinely believe our form so far is in any way a cause for optimism. If fans want to be optimistic then OK, whatever helps you sleep at night, but optimistic predictions by certain media outlets and fans under this horrendous regime have been proven wrong time and time again over the past 7 years, and that's a fact that cannot be denied, twisted or manipulated. 

[RV Blue]

6 points from the next two games or his position is untenable. He's been sh1t since he got here and has shown no signs of improving. The fact that some people on here are saying that we should give him more time is baffling, if we give him more time we are giving ourselves less time, when it is absolutely imperative that we go up this season. A competent manager gets us up with ease, even after this poor start to the season.

[Dunnfc]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Having lost almost half of our games? Again, I fear for some of your ability to process statistics and numbers. 

By that same logic, I will now say: 

Having won nearly two-thirds of our matches we are well on course to finish in the top 2. 

 

 

I make it 15 games played in all competitions, 8 wins, 6 defeats and 1 draw. As I said almost half.

Not sure how you get two thirds though.

[Leonard Venkhater]

Just now, DE. said:

Fact is if you'd said to anybody in July that by the middle of October we'd be 12 points off 2nd, even with a couple of games in hand, the majority would not have been happy. Even less so when you told them we'd have lost 4 of our first 11 games to teams like Southend, Doncaster, Oldham and AFC Wimbledon. Accepting this start as "good enough" is dangerous and I hope Mowbray doesn't genuinely believe our form so far is in any way a cause for optimism. If fans want to be optimistic then OK, whatever helps you sleep at night, but optimistic predictions by certain media outlets and fans under this horrendous regime been proven wrong time and time again over the past 7 years, and that's a fact that cannot be denied, twisted or manipulated. 

Actually, this is  far from a culture of moaning. I think many fans seem to be resolute in maintaining hope that things have changed...that all is well.

Surely, the Owen Coyle appointment in itself reminded everyone that "they" are still here.

I agree that messages of optimism are dangerous.

Venky's out

[Eddie]

I'm only factoring in league performances, as no one in this discussion would allow a cup run to make up for poor league standing. 

Either way you want to play it: 

6 defeats in 15 is 40%

4 defeats in 11 is 36%

8 wins in 15 is 53%

6 wins in 11 is 55%.

If you are going to say that we have lost 'nearly half' of our matches, it is just as right to say that we have won 'nearly two thirds' of them. 

[RevidgeBlue]

19 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

I think he is certainly more of a Furphy than a Gordon Lee.  Worrying because it was Lee who moulded a promotion winning team and not Furphy.

I certainly think Furphy would eventually have delivered promotion had he not been poached by then top flight Sheffield Utd PB.

I made the comparison because you said that it took us 4 seasons to bounce back in our first spell in division 1. That is correct but Furphy was a relatively young dynamic tracksuit type manager for those days whose career was very much on an upward trajectory. At that time the Club were also in a far worse position than we are even now and he had to strip the Club out from top to bottom on an absolute shoestring getting rid of the players he didnt want and bringing in players he did.

In comparison TM has an extremely favourable budget to the rest of the division but  that doesn't seem to be translating into an advantage on the pitch and he seems to be showing a remarkable reluctance to jettison the majority of the players who haven't performed for us in the past and taken us down. With the best will in the world could you describe TM as a dynamic manager whose career is on an upward trajectory? I'd say at best the jury is still out on his performance so far as our manager. There were signs of promise last season and it looked at one point as though he was going to keep us up but then we suddenly went very negative for a spell and we eventually just missed out. This season expectations are completely different but once again I can only describe what has happened overall thus far as fairly disappointing.

It's too soon to sack him now but I'd almost describe the next two home games as being pivotal to our prospects. Anything less than 4 points and any hopes of automatic promotion will already be disappearing out of the window before the clocks go back. Never mind the 4 points, I'd almost rather see the team suddenly playing with some hunger, passion and desire which would indicate things are likely to turn round.

I hope he turns it round and leads us to some overdue success but what if results and performances continue to disappoint? Is it good management to wait until the chance of promotion has completely gone before we make a change?

[NinjaTattoo]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Absolutely not. 

How short some of our memories are. 

Mowbray has restored some stability to the club.  

From the championship to league 1 where we have 54% strike rate of wins. Hardly stable.

[Dunnfc]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

I'm only factoring in league performances, as no one in this discussion would allow a cup run to make up for poor league standing. 

Either way you want to play it: 

6 defeats in 15 is 40%

4 defeats in 11 is 36%

8 wins in 15 is 53%

6 wins in 11 is 55%.

If you are going to say that we have lost 'nearly half' of our matches, it is just as right to say that we have won 'nearly two thirds' of them. 

So we are closer to losing half as many as winning two thirds. Now I'd judge a manager on all games not just the league and not just this seasons @#/? poor start either.

still hoping for 3 points against Plymouth.

[Eddie]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

So we are closer to losing half as many as winning two thirds. Now I'd judge a manager on all games not just the league and not just this seasons @#/? poor start either.

still hoping for 3 points against Plymouth.

Actually, in the league, we are closer to winning two thirds than we are to losing half (66-55=11 50-36=14).

So now we should judge him on all games? Including cup games where we field weakened teams. Makes total sense. 

[chaddyrovers]

38 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

A quarter of the season in and already a playoff place is considered success.

News Flash - it is not

The only success will be promotion.

I didn't say a playoff place is success

33 minutes ago, Dunnfc said:

Not a murmur mentioned by Cheston. Competent boards would have publically backed the manager with a vote of confidence by now.

To date his performance as manager is deeply unacceptable. I note today's LET harking we have no Devine right in this league of which is true however fans have a Devine right to see a manager be competent enough to get a team fit, tactically well drilled given he's by far and large received high funds both transfer and wage wise in this league and the facilities to develop his coaching at this level.

Cheston is the finance director and nothing more. Cheston wont be involved in any discussions about Mowbray or his future that may take place. 

Those decisions will be made by the owners as Cheston has already said

25 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Good point, which therefore must start with promotion this season

I agree Promotion this season is what the target is

20 minutes ago, Dunnfc said:

Having lost almost half our games I don't understand on how you expect or become as optimistic as you currently are to win both these games. It's been an appaling start by a team what looks bereft of any idea, any coaching and fitness. Wimbledon showed us up good and proper in respect of desire and fitness.

Mowbray was relegated with us, Clough got the same points with Burton and a more tougher run in, this season TM has continued to falter so I'm not sure how you can be so confident.

we lost 4 games in 11 league games whilst winning 6 games. Cups comps means nothing this season. only aim this season is promotion. 

Mowbray came in and gave us a proper chance of staying up which we didn't under Owen Coyle. 

 

20 minutes ago, JHRover said:

ONLY 6 points off the top 2 IF we win BOTH our games in hand?

I think you're really stretching things now if your plan for our promotion campaign is based on Wigan's potential takeover having destabilising effects on their charge to promotion. Whilst we have idiotic owners the chances are more likely that their management will have the sense to keep Cook in place as they storm to the title.

Likewise Shrewsbury might get injuries, so might we. I'd suggest with our bunch of crocks we're more likely to sustain damaging injuries than they are. No doubt you'll use that as an excuse if it happens even though most people could predict the likes of Mulgrew, Conway, Evans etc. will get injured repeatedly as they always have.

Where did I say my plan is on Wigan potential takeover having destabilising effects? I didn't but when you look through the history of takeovers, some can have this effect on them and no one knows if the new owners will change managers again like a lot of takeovers this happen and has a negative effect. 

We have had injuries this season already. 

18 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Why are you assessing our position based on "possible turmoil at Wigan"? That's a strawman argument if I've ever I've heard one.

You are right, we could go up to 6 points from the top 2 if we win our games in hand. However both of our games in hand are teams close to us, meaning that should we lose them, and they ARE loseable, we'll lose any advantage they gave us.

I think what most people are expressing is that TM has made a lot of mistakes so early in the season and, unless you view it with blind optimism, it doesn't exactly look good for a promotion push so far.

Lose to Blackpool & lose to Fleetwood (entirely possible) and we are all of a sudden in a position whereby we've won 6, lost 6. A 50% win rate simply isn't good enough. Win both of those games and it looks better but to almost categorically deny we are not in a risky position at the moment is disingenuous. 

I am stated that a lot of takeovers have a destabilising effects on the club and change of manager tends to happen which in some cases can have a negative effect on the team. 

[davulsukur]

We can debate Mowbray being the right man until the cows (chickens if you prefer) come home but the prospect of not get promoted is truly terrifying.

At the end of an unsuccessful season, Mowbray will be gone (one way or the other) and Venky's/Cheston will begin the standard downgrade of the playing squad. All talk would be about promotion but we'd settle nicely into midtable obscurity, before hitting the summer for another downgrade. The following season would ultimately end in relegation to League 2.

It's the standard Venky's model we've seen over the last 7 years.

So basically, whilst Mowbray is failing (and he is failing,as we aren't in an automatic promotion place, you seriously can't take the gamble of a playoff route) are we seeing enough to suggest Mowbray can deliver? I'd say not.

We need promotion, not stability. Stability would surely be the aim in The Championship?