[Archived] Finsbury Park mosque attack

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, Batman. said:

I think most would be lying if they said this has appalled them in the same way the Manchester and London attacks did. 

This screams of some idiotic simpleton trying to carry out some kind of revenge as a result of intolerance born out of recent events. 

The Jihadi movement is far more calculated and intent on doing horrific things to non extremists, and will continue to carry out attacks on mass level in the coming weeks, months and years. This is one idiot who by the looks of it hasn't managed to kill anybody (this will be disputed I'm sure over he coming days and weeks).

If this were part of a wider network of people who are intent on killing innocent Muslims on a mass level, I would say differently, but as far as I can see it's just one pleb who has decided to take the law into his own hands.

Yesterday, in my opinion, demonstrates the risk of what things will descend into if the government don't get a grip on the Islamic Extremism problem quickly. It's an incredibly difficult problem to solve, but there is risk of a civil war breaking out if the current rate of attacks are allowed to continue.

People won't tolerate dozens - hundreds of innocent people being killed in public areas on a biweekly / monthly basis, and if our government are incapable of getting a grip on it quickly, we pose the risk of this getting much worse, very quickly.

The most concerning thing about yesterday is that we are one step closer to the Islamic Extremist dream..

I think keeping a sense of proportion is crucial. In Northern Ireland during the Troubles hundreds of people were killed every year, and both sides were well armed and organised on a war footing. This is a long long way from that.

These remain incidents, in my opinion, to be handled by the police.

[Paul]

Batman I agree with much of your post but think it's unlikely we could go so far as to descend in to civil war.

On hearing of the attack my wife commented on the lines of "this will be some idiots who've got drunk and decided to do something." She wasn't right but I think you can see where she was coming from. 

To my mind there is a key difference between IS, and it's ilk, inspired attacks and Finsbury Park. IS is ideologically driven, has plans, strategy, money and is partly driven by hatred of western culture.

Islamaphobic attacks would/will presumably come from extreme organisations which are against Muslims, immigration etc. From the little I know these groups are relatively small, are driven by hatred and not ideology, and probably poorly funded. The other source of such attacks would be individuals like Osborne. 

The key for me is ideology. IS believe their god is with them. Ultimately their beliefs keep driving them forward. The same can't be said of groups who will look to carry out revenge attacks. 

I doubt an anti-Islam group would be able to find someone prepared to strap on a bomb and walk in to a mosque - an action which would be difficult to achieve under most circumstances. Those wanting to carry out such attacks would not, in my view, be prepared to die for the "cause" and/or not want to be captured. IS style terrorists simply don't care. 

I think we will see other revenge attacks but these will be few and far between. 

[ultrablue]

34 minutes ago, Paul said:

Batman I agree with much of your post but think it's unlikely we could go so far as to descend in to civil war.

On hearing of the attack my wife commented on the lines of "this will be some idiots who've got drunk and decided to do something." She wasn't right but I think you can see where she was coming from. 

To my mind there is a key difference between IS, and it's ilk, inspired attacks and Finsbury Park. IS is ideologically driven, has plans, strategy, money and is partly driven by hatred of western culture.

Islamaphobic attacks would/will presumably come from extreme organisations which are against Muslims, immigration etc. From the little I know these groups are relatively small, are driven by hatred and not ideology, and probably poorly funded. The other source of such attacks would be individuals like Osborne. 

The key for me is ideology. IS believe their god is with them. Ultimately their beliefs keep driving them forward. The same can't be said of groups who will look to carry out revenge attacks. 

I doubt an anti-Islam group would be able to find someone prepared to strap on a bomb and walk in to a mosque - an action which would be difficult to achieve under most circumstances. Those wanting to carry out such attacks would not, in my view, be prepared to die for the "cause" and/or not want to be captured. IS style terrorists simply don't care. 

I think we will see other revenge attacks but these will be few and far between. 

This is true Paul - but  the lone wolves on both sides - 'inspired' remotely by events and propaganda, are the ones that slip most easily through the net - or in fact avoid detection altogether until it is too late. 

I agree IS are better organised and have a more ideological foundation. But the individuals that carry out their biddings in the UK and across Europe clearly also have mental and social problems that can and should be caught earlier.  I just think we have to cast the net wider than ideology - other indicators can help us catch these people before they act.

I would also say that hatred of British Muslims is part of a nativist ideology in itself. This Osbourne fella for example.  This was not simple revenge. This was an attempted mass killing of a religious group.  

Osbourne was motivated partly by his ideology of hatred towards Muslims, but also partly because he is a violent sociopath.  

[AllRoverAsia]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/07/anti-muslim-hate-crimes-increase-fivefold-since-london-bridge-attacks

Osbourne chose the most easily available weapon, a fast moving vehicle. If the UK public could carry firearms he would probably/perhaps have shot people. 

IS thrives by using an extreme form of Sunni religion Saudi style. Who funds mosques and many other foundations?

[Paul]

13 minutes ago, ultrablue said:

This is true Paul - but  the lone wolves on both sides - 'inspired' remotely by events and propaganda, are the ones that slip most easily through the net - or in fact avoid detection altogether until it is too late. 

I agree IS are better organised and have a more ideological foundation. But the individuals that carry out their biddings in the UK and across Europe clearly also have mental and social problems that can and should be caught earlier.  I just think we have to cast the net wider than ideology - other indicators can help us catch these people before they act.

I would also say that hatred of British Muslims is part of a nativist ideology in itself. This Osbourne fella for example.  This was not simple revenge. This was an attempted mass killing of a religious group.  

Osbourne was motivated partly by his ideology of hatred towards Muslims, but also partly because he is a violent sociopath.  

Yes, very much agree with this. In my initial post I was using ideology in perhaps its' commonest usage in relation to a religion, often a "violent" one. 

I can see if we use the broader definition how this fits with your view. I'm not sure though about the nativist bit, I'm not sure such people or groups are sufficiently organised to have an ideology. 

[Batman.]

5 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/07/anti-muslim-hate-crimes-increase-fivefold-since-london-bridge-attacks

Osbourne chose the most easily available weapon, a fast moving vehicle. If the UK public could carry firearms he would probably/perhaps have shot people. 

Yes but we have to arm EVERYBODY!!! Then after he shoots someone, somebody else can shoot him back.

Or something

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, Batman. said:

Yes but we have to arm EVERYBODY!!! Then after he shoots someone, somebody else can shoot him back.

Or something

Sorry to digress but I was reading an article yesterday about Chicago and a video&audio system which identifies gun shots and googles location to bring it up on video. The police sometimes see it so fast pn video it's still in progress.

So sad.

[broadsword]

37 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Yes but we have to arm EVERYBODY!!! Then after he shoots someone, somebody else can shoot him back.

Or something

You have to trust the citizenry with white vans.

[Batman.]

On the subject of Tommy Robinson...

(It was obviously posted by somebody on the side of Robinson, hence the video name, but doesn't necessarily reflect my views).

[ultrablue]

6 hours ago, Paul said:

Yes, very much agree with this. In my initial post I was using ideology in perhaps its' commonest usage in relation to a religion, often a "violent" one. 

I can see if we use the broader definition how this fits with your view. I'm not sure though about the nativist bit, I'm not sure such people or groups are sufficiently organised to have an ideology. 

Yes fortunately we have been spared a well organised far right precisely because, ironically, the nativist ideology is incompatible with the British history and values they claim are under threat from foreigners - pluralism,  religious tolerance, stoicism and the rule of law. And so they turn to vague predictions of violence from the likes of Enoch Powell for justification of anger at their own shortcomings - racial hatred - the last refuse of the morally bankrupt and intellectually stunted.

Of course the person who showed the true British values in Finsbury Park was the Imam who protected the terrorist til the police arrived

[AllRoverAsia]

Thec terrorist had been beaten up proir to the Iman stopping further such treatment.

Enoch Powell was hardly vague in his predictions, indeed he was quite precise.

[ultrablue]

Enoch Powell was an opportunist who came out with a political one-hit wonder saying racial tensions may at somepoint turn violent. Talk about stating the blumming obvious. His statement was simplistic and offered no aspirations for improving anyones life. Yet it is trundled out everytime something like this happens. 

People who use the words of Powell ignore all the great progress, all the solutions and lessons we have learnt. After terrible events they say 'well, what do you expect eh? Enoch warned us!' Well actually what we expect is a Britain where people can go out and enjoy a drink on a saturday night, teenagers can watch their favourite popstar in concert, and muslims can walk home after saying prays at ramadan. We expect this because that is what we get 99.9% of the time - no thanks to retrograde naysayers with no ideas other than hark back to the unimaginative ranting of a political opportunist from the 1960s.

[Baz]

5 hours ago, Batman. said:

On the subject of Tommy Robinson...

(It was obviously posted by somebody on the side of Robinson, hence the video name, but doesn't necessarily reflect my views).

They should never have given that idiot TV time anyway.

Would they allow a extremist Muslim cleric on morning TV? 

This guy spouts as much hatred and garbage as they do.

[Batman.]

Just now, Suhail Slayer said:

Who would be the two sides in this civil war you mention ?

Most of Britain is not Muslim and also not racist.

And most of the Muslims in Britain are British aren't they, so wouldn't all these people not be on the same side ?

 

Yes, most would be on the same side in theory, but the two sides, which is quite obvious to anyone not being incredibly pedantic, would be far right white national groups and far right Islamic groups.

In the middle, as always, would be the millions of innocents.

Just what argument are you trying to pick? Take it straight to PM.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

15 hours ago, ultrablue said:

Enoch Powell was an opportunist who came out with a political one-hit wonder saying racial tensions may at somepoint turn violent. Talk about stating the blumming obvious. His statement was simplistic and offered no aspirations for improving anyones life. Yet it is trundled out everytime something like this happens. 

People who use the words of Powell ignore all the great progress, all the solutions and lessons we have learnt. After terrible events they say 'well, what do you expect eh? Enoch warned us!' Well actually what we expect is a Britain where people can go out and enjoy a drink on a saturday night, teenagers can watch their favourite popstar in concert, and muslims can walk home after saying prays at ramadan. We expect this because that is what we get 99.9% of the time - no thanks to retrograde naysayers with no ideas other than hark back to the unimaginative ranting of a political opportunist from the 1960s.

He was also the guy who was responsible for bringing lots of immigrants to this country when he was a Minister. Just saying.

[Husky]

So, now the dust has settled we see that he's just a tent dwelling mentally ill man from Singapore.

[Husky]

On 19/06/2017 at 17:30, roverandout said:

Dont talk like an arse. Tommy robinson is a hero and speaks the cluckin truth. Compared to some people who are afraid to offend the minorities

From what I've seen of him lately he seems like just your average guy. He's certainly several rungs higher up the ladder than that detestable Piers Morgan idiot. The scary thing being that that pond life buffoon gets to spout his anti-freedom @#/? all over the mainstream media. A complete disgrace and an affront to sane people everywhere.

[Mike E]

Just now, Husky said:

From what I've seen of him lately he seems like just your average guy. He's certainly several rungs higher up the ladder than that detestable Piers Morgan idiot. The scary thing being that that pond life buffoon gets to spout his anti-freedom @#/? all over the mainstream media. A complete disgrace and an affront to sane people everywhere.

And yet the only time I've agreed with Piers Morgan was when he tore Robinson a new one on ITV.

Robinson and Choudery are one and the same: divisive imbeciles who pretend they know a lot but in fact would be torn to shreds in a 6th form debating society.

[Husky]

On 19/06/2017 at 14:57, K-Hod said:

 

I saw a comment today about every time something happens, the left and the right just blame each other. Nobody seems to have any tolerance of each other any more and this has gotten worse since Brexit, the election and Donald Trump and shows no sign of improving IMO.

It seems that everyone is just being played.

There's no getting away from the Hegelian Dialectic

[Baz]

5 hours ago, Husky said:

From what I've seen of him lately he seems like just your average guy. He's certainly several rungs higher up the ladder than that detestable Piers Morgan idiot. The scary thing being that that pond life buffoon gets to spout his anti-freedom @#/? all over the mainstream media. A complete disgrace and an affront to sane people everywhere.

I'd suggest you look at his past. It tells you what kind of person he is.

[Husky]

3 hours ago, Baz said:

I'd suggest you look at his past. It tells you what kind of person he is.

I did. Quite scary.

Though I also did the same with religions - that's why as a sane person it's even scarier to be living in a society where violent mental illnesses are considered normal.

[JBiz]

On 19/06/2017 at 17:46, roverandout said:

I cant stand katie hopkins

Couldn't agree more. Purposely divisive. She's the same arse different cheek of the likes of Lily Allen, using shock media tactics to feed their image. It's all about their own ends! 

 

I see the daily mail has distanced itself from mail online... is that a bit like Coca Cola saying they had nothing to do with Diet Cola!?

The Daily Mail is a reprehensible newspaper that spends its time trying to brainwash its followers through lies.. why do my irony senses tingle whilst typing that...

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

5 hours ago, Biz said:

Couldn't agree more. Purposely divisive. She's the same arse different cheek of the likes of Lily Allen, using shock media tactics to feed their image. It's all about their own ends! 

 

I see the daily mail has distanced itself from mail online... is that a bit like Coca Cola saying they had nothing to do with Diet Cola!?

The Daily Mail is a reprehensible newspaper that spends its time trying to brainwash its followers through lies.. why do my irony senses tingle whilst typing that...

Cancer in print.

[Husky]

I guess this is the only way Blackburn makes the national press these days #ThirdDivision

MORE TERRORISM ON THE STREETS OF BLACKBURN

[JBiz]

6 hours ago, Husky said:

I guess this is the only way Blackburn makes the national press these days #ThirdDivision

MORE TERRORISM ON THE STREETS OF BLACKBURN

It's in shad is that innit! Outside the school. I'm all for changing the rules on Paedophile sentencing, we should make an example any questionable adults that do such things. Life imprisonment as a standard.

It isn't terrorism though.