[Archived] coaching staff changes

[TBTF]

10 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Not sure I agree with Mowbray's comments about not needing Cat 1 status. Without it we may as well not have an academy at all as EPPP will see any gems leave for peanuts.

I totally agree Stu. this is bad news as far as I can see. They are letting the Academy run down and I doubt it will even pass its next Cat 1 inspection. That taken a stage further would leave you to think land at the bottom of Brockhall wont be needed and possibly a liquidation sale will be underway soon.But the loss of our academy status is a massive blow-its one of the things we could cling too as being top drawer. Wasn't it Kinder who brought Mahoney in from Accy Stanley? If so I bet watching him be allowed to leave for diddly squat was a real kick in the town halls for Kinder -all that good work going to waste. People who know Kinder are telling me he had basically had enough of banging his head on a brick wall , having to deal with a total bell in Suhail Pasha who has zero clue and basically chucked it in search of pastures new. I suspect he can also see Cat 1 disappearing up its own arse and naturally wouldn't want to be party to that shocking news whilst he is in the chair. For all Mowbray might be blowing smoke, there is still Chestnut and Pasha cluelessly running the gaff. What was it Cheston said last week about optimism running through the club? He said exactly the same last year when clownpants came in. The man is a fraud . Not much optimism running through the Academy I wager.   

But Chaddy ,how the hell can this show just go on without cutbacks?? you might be pleased to see £1m spent on 1st Team but the infrastructure underneath is just eating itself now in order to meet the bills.

 

The Club Is on its arse and always will be whilst feckwits like Venkys own it and two hats like Cheston and Pasha are around. Thankfully we still have Coar to steady the ship. 

 

[Dunnfc]

Nicko reckons paid off (Kinder)

 

[Stuart]

58 minutes ago, TBTF said:

I totally agree Stu. this is bad news as far as I can see. They are letting the Academy run down and I doubt it will even pass its next Cat 1 inspection. That taken a stage further would leave you to think land at the bottom of Brockhall wont be needed and possibly a liquidation sale will be underway soon.But the loss of our academy status is a massive blow-its one of the things we could cling too as being top drawer. Wasn't it Kinder who brought Mahoney in from Accy Stanley? If so I bet watching him be allowed to leave for diddly squat was a real kick in the town halls for Kinder -all that good work going to waste. People who know Kinder are telling me he had basically had enough of banging his head on a brick wall , having to deal with a total bell in Suhail Pasha who has zero clue and basically chucked it in search of pastures new. I suspect he can also see Cat 1 disappearing up its own arse and naturally wouldn't want to be party to that shocking news whilst he is in the chair. For all Mowbray might be blowing smoke, there is still Chestnut and Pasha cluelessly running the gaff. What was it Cheston said last week about optimism running through the club? He said exactly the same last year when clownpants came in. The man is a fraud . Not much optimism running through the Academy I wager.   

But Chaddy ,how the hell can this show just go on without cutbacks?? you might be pleased to see £1m spent on 1st Team but the infrastructure underneath is just eating itself now in order to meet the bills.

 

The Club Is on its arse and always will be whilst feckwits like Venkys own it and two hats like Cheston and Pasha are around. Thankfully we still have Coar to steady the ship. 

But there's plenty of reasons to be optimistic about the future.

There's...

Well there's...

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, TBTF said:

I totally agree Stu. this is bad news as far as I can see. They are letting the Academy run down and I doubt it will even pass its next Cat 1 inspection. That taken a stage further would leave you to think land at the bottom of Brockhall wont be needed and possibly a liquidation sale will be underway soon.But the loss of our academy status is a massive blow-its one of the things we could cling too as being top drawer. Wasn't it Kinder who brought Mahoney in from Accy Stanley? If so I bet watching him be allowed to leave for diddly squat was a real kick in the town halls for Kinder -all that good work going to waste. People who know Kinder are telling me he had basically had enough of banging his head on a brick wall , having to deal with a total bell in Suhail Pasha who has zero clue and basically chucked it in search of pastures new. I suspect he can also see Cat 1 disappearing up its own arse and naturally wouldn't want to be party to that shocking news whilst he is in the chair. For all Mowbray might be blowing smoke, there is still Chestnut and Pasha cluelessly running the gaff. What was it Cheston said last week about optimism running through the club? He said exactly the same last year when clownpants came in. The man is a fraud . Not much optimism running through the Academy I wager.   

But Chaddy ,how the hell can this show just go on without cutbacks?? you might be pleased to see £1m spent on 1st Team but the infrastructure underneath is just eating itself now in order to meet the bills.

 

The Club Is on its arse and always will be whilst feckwits like Venkys own it and two hats like Cheston and Pasha are around. Thankfully we still have Coar to steady the ship. 

 

All that money and effort to get it to Cat 1 then it might be immediately pulled to bits again, more money wasted. I thought they wanted to build the club back up and gain promotion ?  If so won't they need Cat 1 again next season ?

Venky logic again  -- they've no keaning intention of building this club back up.

[JAL]

27 minutes ago, tomphil said:

All that money and effort to get it to Cat 1 then it might be immediately pulled to bits again, more money wasted. I thought they wanted to build the club back up and gain promotion ?  If so won't they need Cat 1 again next season ?

Venky logic again  -- they've no keaning intention of building this club back up.

Got to feel for those that believe they will .......and we dared to call Burnley fans once upon a time.....

[Manchester Blue]

Not saying I agree with the point if Mowbray indeed has said it, but think Brentford have recently done something similar no?  There is a view that unless you are in the Premier League you can't justify subsidising an Academy at that level, given how much the big clubs are stockpiling them it's more cost efficient to pick up cast offs.

[Parsonblue]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

All that money and effort to get it to Cat 1 then it might be immediately pulled to bits again, more money wasted. I thought they wanted to build the club back up and gain promotion ?  If so won't they need Cat 1 again next season ?

Venky logic again  -- they've no keaning intention of building this club back up.

Bolton gave up Cat 1 status a couple of years ago when they were still in the Championship.  AFC Bournemouth aren't even a Cat 2 club despite being in the Premier League.  There are a number of clubs who have opted out of the present set up for a variety of reasons.  Brentford are another Championship club who do things differently and it seems to work for them.

[tomphil]

I can see the thought in running it lesser but what i'm saying is it's just typical of this clueless crackpot regime that after going to all the time, trouble, expense and fuss quite recently to then just turn around and pull it to bits again. If that does turn out to be the case of course although they'll still need to replace Kinder whatever the plans I presume.

The drum was being beaten over the last season or two that it was imperative we attained Cat 1 status and that the academy was pivitol to the clubs survival. Some even going to the lengths of saying Venkys funded it separately. Not as though we were on the verge of knocking on the Prem door either, crazy to spend all that doh then downscale but its probably equally daft to run it as Cat 1 if we are gearing to be a league 1 club.

Football eh

[blueboy3333]

5 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

Bolton gave up Cat 1 status a couple of years ago when they were still in the Championship.  AFC Bournemouth aren't even a Cat 2 club despite being in the Premier League.  There are a number of clubs who have opted out of the present set up for a variety of reasons.  Brentford are another Championship club who do things differently and it seems to work for them.

It works at Brentford because they spend money on youngish players that can compete for a place in their 1st team. We'd have to do the same if we ditched the Academy. We can't do neither.

[Parsonblue]

19 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

It works at Brentford because they spend money on youngish players that can compete for a place in their 1st team. We'd have to do the same if we ditched the Academy. We can't do neither.

Brentford are fortunate being based in London.  They pick up the youngsters released by London academies and give them playing time in their 'B' team to see if they'll make the grade.  Basically, they let other clubs develop them between the ages of 9 and 18 and then they pick up lads from the pool that are released when their scholarships end.  In a way we have started doing something similar with Butterworth, Anderson, Thompson, Rankin-Costello and Travis all being brought in from other Academies. 

[JHRover]

 

He was manager of Middlesbrough in the Championship for 3 years. Was he wanting them to scrap their Category A academy and divert the money into the first team? If so then why didn't they?

The academy was in place long before Mowbray was on the scene and given the average tenure of managers under these owners I would expect will still be here after Mowbray has gone. 

We're getting into dangerous territory here in my opinion, and it is concerning that once again we appear to have a situation where the owners have basically told Mowbray to clear off and do things as he wants for the next 12 months. It is inherently flawed and we've seen it all before. Too much responsibility on one individual just because they've taken a liking to him and refuse to do what every other club in the land does and install a long term structure above/alongside the management staff. Nothing has changed on that front.

We've gone full circle in the space of 6 months from installing a new D of F structure at the club with a Head Coach, to now going back to the manager basically running the whole show singlehandedly. That's lovely if you've a nice, sensible man running it who also manages to deliver consistent results in keeping with the club's aim, but the minute results drop then the whole thing comes crashing down again. 

Whatever the future holds for the academy that should be a separate issue entirely to what Mowbray wants. He is first team manager, not chairman. His concern should be putting together a team in the short term to get promoted, not determining the future of an academy that has been in place for many years.

Mowbray's position at the club should be determined by the results he delivers next season. Nothing else. All the talk, impressive speaking and his opinions on things like the academy could and should become irrelevant if we're not achieving what we need to do next season.

Given the lifespan of managers under these wretched owners it would be insanity to suddenly start dismantling the academy because the latest incumbent has a certain view on it. There's a very high likelihood that a different bloke will be in the dugout by this time next year who could well have the opposite view as Mowbray and the opposite philosophy. I'm not saying I want it to happen, but you'd be very brave to expect him to last at this club. Nobody else bar possibly Bowyer has managed it with these imbeciles.

[Blueandwhitemike]

 

I wonder if this is the auditors rather than Mowbray's influence or both combined...

[Parsonblue]

6 hours ago, JHRover said:

 

He was manager of Middlesbrough in the Championship for 3 years. Was he wanting them to scrap their Category A academy and divert the money into the first team? If so then why didn't they?

The academy was in place long before Mowbray was on the scene and given the average tenure of managers under these owners I would expect will still be here after Mowbray has gone. 

We're getting into dangerous territory here in my opinion, and it is concerning that once again we appear to have a situation where the owners have basically told Mowbray to clear off and do things as he wants for the next 12 months. It is inherently flawed and we've seen it all before. Too much responsibility on one individual just because they've taken a liking to him and refuse to do what every other club in the land does and install a long term structure above/alongside the management staff. Nothing has changed on that front.

We've gone full circle in the space of 6 months from installing a new D of F structure at the club with a Head Coach, to now going back to the manager basically running the whole show singlehandedly. That's lovely if you've a nice, sensible man running it who also manages to deliver consistent results in keeping with the club's aim, but the minute results drop then the whole thing comes crashing down again. 

Whatever the future holds for the academy that should be a separate issue entirely to what Mowbray wants. He is first team manager, not chairman. His concern should be putting together a team in the short term to get promoted, not determining the future of an academy that has been in place for many years.

Mowbray's position at the club should be determined by the results he delivers next season. Nothing else. All the talk, impressive speaking and his opinions on things like the academy could and should become irrelevant if we're not achieving what we need to do next season.

Given the lifespan of managers under these wretched owners it would be insanity to suddenly start dismantling the academy because the latest incumbent has a certain view on it. There's a very high likelihood that a different bloke will be in the dugout by this time next year who could well have the opposite view as Mowbray and the opposite philosophy. I'm not saying I want it to happen, but you'd be very brave to expect him to last at this club. Nobody else bar possibly Bowyer has managed it with these imbeciles.

Ultimately, we will lose Cat. 1 status because of the constant moving of the goalposts as it where in terms of the facilities required.  We only just managed to get Cat. 1 status this time after being given extra time to bring the facilities up to the required standard.  We can compete on the pitch at this level but the authorities will ensure that the constant raising of the bar at this level, in terms of facilities, will mean that they get a Cat.1 group which will consist of all the big money clubs to the exclusion of every other club.  Youth and development football has gone the same way as senior football - dominated by money.

[TBTF]

8 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

Bolton gave up Cat 1 status a couple of years ago when they were still in the Championship.  AFC Bournemouth aren't even a Cat 2 club despite being in the Premier League.  There are a number of clubs who have opted out of the present set up for a variety of reasons.  Brentford are another Championship club who do things differently and it seems to work for them.

What bit of what we do or have done for 7 years works for us then Parson?

Not having a go at all but people continue to try to put a positive spin on things that go on at our Club but this is wilful destruction piece by piece. Every step we take is a step down towards the bottom of the pit.

Please somebody tell me something genuinely good that has happened or a good , lasting decision that has been made since Venkys walked through the door . there isn't one.

If we have sold 7500 ST's then people are walking round with their eyes shut and headphones on.

[JBiz]

2 minutes ago, TBTF said:

continue to try to put a positive spin on things that go on at our Club but this is wilful destruction piece by piece.

There is no positive spin to us losing cat 1 status but there is the "reality" that we've gone from a club that would be turning 100m+ over to a club who will struggle to make 2m in season tickets, and that's our bread and butter.

Reality dawned on us due to monumental mistakes. Not one, not two. A catalogue. We either choose to move on and look at the big picture, the future et al or carry on lamenting and wallowing in that catalogue of errors.

IF the academy is costing 3/4m per season and our playing budget is less, then it really doesn't make any sense to have an expensive academy short term.

[TBTF]

1 minute ago, Biz said:

There is no positive spin to us losing cat 1 status but there is the "reality" that we've gone from a club that would be turning 100m+ over to a club who will struggle to make 2m in season tickets, and that's our bread and butter.

Reality dawned on us due to monumental mistakes. Not one, not two. A catalogue. We either choose to move on and look at the big picture, the future et al or carry on lamenting and wallowing in that catalogue of errors.

IF the academy is costing 3/4m per season and our playing budget is less, then it really doesn't make any sense to have an expensive academy short term.

The point I am making Biz is that until they demonstrate they can get at least one thing right or make one sensible decision then how the hell can anyone even contemplate moving on /looking at the bigger picture.??? Explain the bigger picture , please. It doesn't exist. You have to have a plan in order to see the bigger picture  and there hasn't been one at any stage since these morons walked through the door.  

[cesus]

47 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

Ultimately, we will lose Cat. 1 status because of the constant moving of the goalposts as it where in terms of the facilities required.  We only just managed to get Cat. 1 status this time after being given extra time to bring the facilities up to the required standard.  We can compete on the pitch at this level but the authorities will ensure that the constant raising of the bar at this level, in terms of facilities, will mean that they get a Cat.1 group which will consist of all the big money clubs to the exclusion of every other club.  Youth and development football has gone the same way as senior football - dominated by money.

Unfortunately it seems like it is going to be the case with the academy losing Cat 1, I would prefer that a plan is put into place now rather the usual way things have rolled out under the owners in that things are ignored until the last second and we have no plan.

As Parson rightly says we are falling behind now, none of us are happy about it and we all know who are to blame, but should we continue to say this is the last of Jacks legacy to go or agree that we need to change tact i.e picking up players from other academies after they have pumped the big bucks into them.

If the owners walked away tomorrow and we were saved by some white knights I would guess that the decision whether to keep the Cat 1 academy (we will still have an academy in some guise) would be one of, if not the biggest decisions they would face.

[JBiz]

10 minutes ago, TBTF said:

The point I am making Biz is that until they demonstrate they can get at least one thing right or make one sensible decision then how the hell can anyone even contemplate moving on /looking at the bigger picture.??? Explain the bigger picture , please. It doesn't exist. You have to have a plan in order to see the bigger picture  and there hasn't been one at any stage since these morons walked through the door.  

The bigger picture is we have no say in who own us. We can either keep banging our heads against a wall on that or look at it from a different perspective.

The alternative perspective is we have far more expense in facility than anyone in this division. If I was manager and I was expected to get us promoted instantly, I'd want the biggest wage budget available.

If that means stripping back the academy for a time, then I'd probably take the same decision. 

Looking at it through the mindset of a rovers fan, not hard to not get angry since it's the last of the gift Jack gave us ? 

[JacknOry]

For a time? Once gone it will never come back. Then the grounds will be deemed useless and will be an excuse to try and sell them off.

[JacknOry]

Just now, JacknOry said:

For a time? Once gone it will never come back. Then the grounds will be deemed useless and will be an excuse to try and sell them off.

Good owners would suck up the losses this season in an all out attempt to get back to the Championship straight away. It seems they are already planning for life as a L1 club for the foreseeable future.

[Parsonblue]

Sadly, the game has changed since Jack's original plans for the Academy which were to produce players for the club and for the Academy to become self-sufficient by selling those players who weren't good enough to clubs lower down the League ladder.  When the ITV deal with the Football League collapsed that ended that plan with money becoming increasing tight in the bottom two divisions.  The introduction of the Elite Performance Plan has changed the nature of Youth development and placed a huge amount of emphasis on facilities and backroom staff.  On the pitch, at Under-18 level anyway, we have proved we can compete with the big clubs but facility wise we can't without spending more and more money with every passing year.  Many Football League clubs opposed the Elite Performance Plan but had no option but to accept it because of the financial power of the Premier League.  Last season there were 24 Category One clubs - split into two divisions at Under-23 level - but the rest of the clubs seemed to manage very well by being in the other Categories.  Other clubs seem to be able to develop young players and bring them through into their senior teams, particularly in Leagues One and Two, without spending 3.5 million every year.

With limited resources the club has to make the most of them in the best way possible.  Personally, I don't see dropping into Category Two as being the end of the world but I accept that many will.

 

[J*B]

I expected us to start selling our best talent once the season ticket deadline had passed, but crikey, giving up the academy as well?

[Parsonblue]

13 minutes ago, J*B said:

I expected us to start selling our best talent once the season ticket deadline had passed, but crikey, giving up the academy as well?

If we dropped down to Category Two it is hardly giving up the Academy.

[tomphil]

30 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

For a time? Once gone it will never come back. Then the grounds will be deemed useless and will be an excuse to try and sell them off.

It's like a British Steele plant investing and expanding for a market they aren't yet in then deciding to close half of it 5 mins later instead because a recession looms.  Thing is they mothball part of their plant and keep it ready to go again when needed but you can't see these lot mothballing any prime land and buildings for long.

Maybe a local farmer will rent pitches for sheep otherwise ...........

[blueboy3333]

9 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

Brentford are fortunate being based in London.  They pick up the youngsters released by London academies and give them playing time in their 'B' team to see if they'll make the grade.  Basically, they let other clubs develop them between the ages of 9 and 18 and then they pick up lads from the pool that are released when their scholarships end.  In a way we have started doing something similar with Butterworth, Anderson, Thompson, Rankin-Costello and Travis all being brought in from other Academies. 

Which is fine and possibly the way to go if our best lads are the ones we've picked up from others academies. But a lot of the successes at Brentford have been players bought in their early 20's for relatively small fees relative to their potential, the likes of Judge, Tarkowski (sp), Vibe, Jota, none of whom are from London clubs. What Brentford have done well is identify lads with potential who are ready to play 1st team football. If this is the way Mowbray wants to go, rather than spending £3-4 million on the academy for scant reward then I'm all for it. But Venky's must invest.

In fairness this summer we seem to be reverting to a sensible transfer policy, buying young players who can increase in value and will go straight into the first team. This policy served the club very well when Bowyer was allowed a bit to spend.