[Archived] coaching staff changes

[tomphil]

39 minutes ago, JHRover said:

From a purely financial point of view the academy has actually paid for itself since Venkys arrived on the scene. The sales of Grant Hanley and Phil Jones alone brought in about £23 million, which at Category A levels of expenditure mean approximately 6-7 years of funding is covered in those 2 sales alone.

So Venkys/the club haven't actually lost anything on sustaining the academy over the last 7 years.

I understand Parsons point about the increasingly difficult obstacles that have to be overcome to continue to achieve compliance with the scheme, and clearly a decision will need to be made when the next audit is approaching as to whether we are to invest in our facilities/staff or not.

But lets not pretend the academy has been a big drain on the club/Venkys over recent years. If anything they've made money out of it whilst benefiting from first team regulars such as Hanley and Lowe playing in the team every week for 5 years.

 

And helped attract a better standard of youth from other places as JB mentions above. Just amazing how not long ago on here Vs were being championed for funding or not closing down the academy but instead driving it forwadds to Cat 1 as that was so vital to Rovers future so we were the best bet for younger talent behind the big city locals but ahead of similar sized clubs locally.

Now its brushed off as no big deal.

[J*B]

Just now, meadows said:

Have a look at personnel in the lower divisions if you don't think there are rejects from big clubs at clubs with non-Cat A Academy status. 

 

Only because Cat 1 clubs have chosen not to sign them! Have you any idea what you are talking about here or are you just looking for someone to spend your Wednesday disagreeing with? 

[Dreams of 1995]

5 minutes ago, meadows said:

Jack Byrne had come thru a Cat A Academy hadn't he but give me a hungry Mark Atkins street footballer anytime. 

You can pick out individuals as much as you'd like but all evidence suggests the better the academy the better the players produced. If this wasn't the case you wouldn't have clubs worldwide spending millions of pounds on them each year and would just pick up "hungry street footballers" instead. I think those days are quickly dying - most players these days are picked up before 10.

In fact, I know of a young lad who plays for Blackpool academy. They played Manchester City a few years ago and turned up with 15 players. Manchester City turned up with a team for the first half and a team for the second half. This is at under-13's level. This is what we are competing with and it's important to remain within some touching distance. We can't attract the best young players as it is, drop further down and we are further reducing our quality to pick from.

 

It is also universally acknowledged that there is more chance of producing a better player from a better academy. 

[den]

23 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You can pick out individuals as much as you'd like but all evidence suggests the better the academy the better the players produced. 

 

The best young players opt for the best clubs.

[Dreams of 1995]

23 minutes ago, meadows said:

A pity we have proved largely the exception then!  

Mind you it might help if people weren't onto the likes of Henley, Lenihan and incredibly already Nyambe denigrating their efforts the instant they put a first team shirt on

I don't think we have. We have produced a few good footballers. We have to remember that even for all the gusto of our academy we have to compete with some of the biggest clubs in the world. Which bring me onto Den's point...........

2 minutes ago, den said:

The best young players opt for the best clubs.

And the best clubs have the best academies. The two are intertwined. Any step away from is devastating. Despite the low expectations of some supporters to simply survive we should always be aspiring to be the best. Jack Walker saw this which is why he spent what he did on our academy.

[Bigdoggsteel]

50 minutes ago, J*B said:

In what sense? What do you think the cost was for Rovers bringing Jason Lowe through his entire career? Lets get this straight - if a player comes through the academy and is sold for more than 200k or plays a full season in the first team has been a profit / benefit to the club. 

We didn't sell him for a penny though? Plus his constant appearance in our midfield correlates with the worst results in the past 40ish years of the clubs history. 

Look, I'm not slating the guy completely. He is a hard worker, but his automatic place in the team and being made captain due to "being one of our own" ended up actually damaging results. The guy is an extremely limited footballer and was not the type of player we have needed over the last few years.

 If he is one of the highlights of our academy, good luck to it.  

[SkipDonoghue]

1 hour ago, klc_2012 said:

Anyone know the actual difference between Cat 1 and Cat 2? (Ok with a Link if easier)

It's usually.....facilities ie indoor pitches as well as outdoor....staff ie number of coaches, medical staff etc....Education the club has to provide schooling for ex amount of full time academy players....and budget investment on all the above has to be a minimum of around £2/3 million per season....

which drops if not mistaken to around £1/1.5 For Cat 2 which is still a big chunk of change....also not as much staff required....don't need as many facilities pitches etc and don't need to provide full time education programme

[tomphil]

47 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

We didn't sell him for a penny though? Plus his constant appearance in our midfield correlates with the worst results in the past 40ish years of the clubs history. 

Look, I'm not slating the guy completely. He is a hard worker, but his automatic place in the team and being made captain due to "being one of our own" ended up actually damaging results. The guy is an extremely limited footballer and was not the type of player we have needed over the last few years.

 If he is one of the highlights of our academy, good luck to it.  

Agree on most of those points about Lowe but really he should always have been nothing more than a utility squad man on modest wages starting most matches on the bench and then he'd have been seen as really good value for money. With that in mind I also think someone might have offered a few quid for him but the sticking point was the contract handed to him by coco and the wages he was on, Prem money.

No one was ever going to match that never mind pay a fee and he was never going to leave hence why he ( and whoever) rinsed the last drops out of it. For me he represents both good and bad of modern academy systems. Could have been a real handy and popular long serving squad man due to his vast limitations but ended up in some ways an overpaid robot who for whatever reasons, maybe because he was homegrown from the academy literally had to be first pick on the team sheet.

[SkipDonoghue]

Young players will always choose to go to the big clubs your United, Liverpool's City's etc as what these clubs offer young players in not only the best coaching and training with a very high calibre of player, but education (parents) and playing overseas is what they want but more importantly what parents want....if you fall from one of the above mentioned you can still land in a decent academy such as Rovers, Everton, Nottingham Forest, Leeds, The Sheffield clubs etc...now if you fall from one of these clubs your options start to become very limited, Bury, Burnley, Rochdale etc and falling from these clubs well you can end up out of the game and trying other avenues to get back

the lads at the bigger clubs will have more stamps in there passports at 16 than Alan Whicker and Judith Chalmers put together as the will have played in tournaments abroad 2&3 times a year since u9

and then you have the education United educate there full time academy players and house them from 12 the lads only go home after games on a weekend but they select who they feel are the better boys for this not all players do it

City educate there full time boys in private education from 12 at St Bedes school which is a very prestigious private school in Manchester....now City educate every single boy in the squad weather you be top or bottom of the pile...they also guarantee that education even if the boy is released from the club

so you can see why parents especially will want their child in these academies especially City's just for the education 

Rovers being in the same area and competing with these clubs struggle to compete especially when money is tight

now the one thing Rovers have which is an advantage over the so called bigger clubs is pathway

pathway to go from academy to 1st team as let's have it right you have more chance of walking on the moon than breaking into City's 1st team Uniteds slightly different but the players they bring through are top top players (Rasford and Gomes) for example 

now players leaving these clubs when it comes to scholarships want a pathway and by coming to Rovers that pathway is there also the Cat 1 status is big for these players as Cat 1 is the highest level you can play at from 16-18 it's where scouts from clubs and countries etc come to watch games you are tested against the best week in week out there are no easy games 

so keeping Cat 1 can be seen as important in some respects especially attracting players

but following the model Brentford use at the moment could be worth looking at, they shut there academy as they were sick of losing there best players to The big London clubs and now pick up lads released by the big London clubs so it can be done 

 

[arbitro]

3 hours ago, Bluebarley said:

Give over bet that they can't wait for some sun I'm not in England at the moment all it did yesterday was rain glad to get away. Whether you can train the same in the heat is another question depends where you go I'd still rather train in anything but rain.

Aside from frost and snow they can train outdoors in any weather. For the majority of our season we play in cold and quite often inclement weather. I just don't see the point from a playing and finance point of view. I once read that athletes train and perform better in rain because it oxygenates the air.

[JacknOry]

A few on this thread are completely missing the point.

[tomphil]

The money that the Scottish bald don, his mafia, agents and agencies plus pay offs for former managers, coaches, directors, global idiots and chancers would have funded a Cat 1 academy for 20 years.

Maybe the shadow partners or one of Madames chicken franchises should think about funding it directly out of their own pockets for a while.

[J*B]

53 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

A few on this thread are completely missing the point.

Doesn't matter now, Jim has decided to take his toys elsewhere and is ridiculing the entire discussion on Twitter instead.

[Parsonblue]

1 hour ago, SkipDonoghue said:

Young players will always choose to go to the big clubs your United, Liverpool's City's etc as what these clubs offer young players in not only the best coaching and training with a very high calibre of player, but education (parents) and playing overseas is what they want but more importantly what parents want....if you fall from one of the above mentioned you can still land in a decent academy such as Rovers, Everton, Nottingham Forest, Leeds, The Sheffield clubs etc...now if you fall from one of these clubs your options start to become very limited, Bury, Burnley, Rochdale etc and falling from these clubs well you can end up out of the game and trying other avenues to get back

the lads at the bigger clubs will have more stamps in there passports at 16 than Alan Whicker and Judith Chalmers put together as the will have played in tournaments abroad 2&3 times a year since u9

and then you have the education United educate there full time academy players and house them from 12 the lads only go home after games on a weekend but they select who they feel are the better boys for this not all players do it

City educate there full time boys in private education from 12 at St Bedes school which is a very prestigious private school in Manchester....now City educate every single boy in the squad weather you be top or bottom of the pile...they also guarantee that education even if the boy is released from the club

so you can see why parents especially will want their child in these academies especially City's just for the education 

Rovers being in the same area and competing with these clubs struggle to compete especially when money is tight

now the one thing Rovers have which is an advantage over the so called bigger clubs is pathway

pathway to go from academy to 1st team as let's have it right you have more chance of walking on the moon than breaking into City's 1st team Uniteds slightly different but the players they bring through are top top players (Rasford and Gomes) for example 

now players leaving these clubs when it comes to scholarships want a pathway and by coming to Rovers that pathway is there also the Cat 1 status is big for these players as Cat 1 is the highest level you can play at from 16-18 it's where scouts from clubs and countries etc come to watch games you are tested against the best week in week out there are no easy games 

so keeping Cat 1 can be seen as important in some respects especially attracting players

but following the model Brentford use at the moment could be worth looking at, they shut there academy as they were sick of losing there best players to The big London clubs and now pick up lads released by the big London clubs so it can be done 

 

Thanks for taking the time to do that.  I think that is one of the most informative posts I've read in a long while.  Forest, Leeds and the Sheffield Clubs are all Cat 2 at the moment aren't they?  I know when I've watched games at Thorp Arch that the Leeds set up always seemed impressive.

[tomphil]

It's the standard modus operandi

[Dunnfc]

PNE are looking to build a PL state training and academy facility. Git rejected for planning last week, I sense a sale on the cards.

[AllRoverAsia]

All this very intetesting discussion but we still don't know if Kinder jumped or was pushed or do we?

5 minutes ago, Dunnfc said:

PNE are looking to build a PL state training and academy facility. Git rejected for planning last week, I sense a sale on the cards.

Sale and leaseback part? Sale but share?.............and that reminds me, Ewood Park....

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, Parsonblue said:

Thanks for taking the time to do that.  I think that is one of the most informative posts I've read in a long while.  Forest, Leeds and the Sheffield Clubs are all Cat 2 at the moment aren't they?  I know when I've watched games at Thorp Arch that the Leeds set up always seemed impressive.

Seconded.

SkipD has been very interesting and insightful in his posts which suggest a position somewhere in the game. Anyway I look forward to more.

[SkipDonoghue]

41 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

Thanks for taking the time to do that.  I think that is one of the most informative posts I've read in a long while.  Forest, Leeds and the Sheffield Clubs are all Cat 2 at the moment aren't they?  I know when I've watched games at Thorp Arch that the Leeds set up always seemed impressive.

No problem thanks for taking the time to read it...I know it was a long post so cheers, yes all the clubs like Leeds and Forest etal all have decent set ups and the Sheffield clubs, Leeds even Barnsley if I'm not mistaken have been Cat 1 clubs in the past before the introduction of more and more hoops to jump through

when it comes to academies I personally don't think there is a certain way to do it, if clubs have the funds they are going to have Cat 1 it goes without saying but these clubs tend not to rely on players coming through to their 1st team its more about developing and then selling players on a bit like a stud farm any young player making it at City or United will need to be in the world class bracket and they are few and far between 

developing players isn't an exact science but I feel an academy should have an identity and a system which gives young players the chance to progress this is why  Lewis Travis, Joe Rankin-Costello, Dan Butterworth, Lewis Thompson and so on came to Rovers when leaving Liverpool and United etc I don't think any were short of offers to go elsewhere but chose Rovers due to...location, set up, and the biggest two Cat 1 and Pathway 

I personally would like to see Rovers keep its Cat 1 status but its a tricky one....losing Cat 1 can and will affect attracting players from other academies when it comes to scholarships another thing with Cat 1 is the wages now scholars aren't on great money but it drops as the academy level drops so cat 2 clubs don't pay as much to their scholars as cat 1 and so on

another thing is the FA pay the wages I think of 8 scholars ( this number could be wrong) in a cat 1 academy of each year group this figure drops also as the category of the academy drops

[JacknOry]

4 minutes ago, SkipDonoghue said:

No problem thanks for taking the time to read it...I know it was a long post so cheers, yes all the clubs like Leeds and Forest etal all have decent set ups and the Sheffield clubs, Leeds even Barnsley if I'm not mistaken have been Cat 1 clubs in the past before the introduction of more and more hoops to jump through

when it comes to academies I personally don't think there is a certain way to do it, if clubs have the funds they are going to have Cat 1 it goes without saying but these clubs tend not to rely on players coming through to their 1st team its more about developing and then selling players on a bit like a stud farm any young player making it at City or United will need to be in the world class bracket and they are few and far between 

developing players isn't an exact science but I feel an academy should have an identity and a system which gives young players the chance to progress this is why  Lewis Travis, Joe Rankin-Costello, Dan Butterworth, Lewis Thompson and so on came to Rovers when leaving Liverpool and United etc I don't think any were short of offers to go elsewhere but chose Rovers due to...location, set up, and the biggest two Cat 1 and Pathway 

I personally would like to see Rovers keep its Cat 1 status but its a tricky one....losing Cat 1 can and will affect attracting players from other academies when it comes to scholarships another thing with Cat 1 is the wages now scholars aren't on great money but it drops as the academy level drops so cat 2 clubs don't pay as much to their scholars as cat 1 and so on

another thing is the FA pay the wages I think of 8 scholars ( this number could be wrong) in a cat 1 academy of each year group this figure drops also as the category of the academy drops

Interesting stuff - I never knew about the FA paying the wages of some players.

[Skiptonrover]

2 hours ago, arbitro said:

Aside from frost and snow they can train outdoors in any weather. For the majority of our season we play in cold and quite often inclement weather. I just don't see the point from a playing and finance point of view. I once read that athletes train and perform better in rain because it oxygenates the air.

I know all that. You will probably be right with the science temperature explanation. From a finance point of view it's a luxury (only word that computs) but by God I don't think the player's will be complaining if I had a job where they shuttled me free of charge to Spain Portugal ect heavens made.

[SkipDonoghue]

Just now, JacknOry said:

Interesting stuff - I never knew about the FA paying the wages of some players.

Yes the FA pay so many scholars wages as long as they are English I should have added....it's all to do with developing players for the junior England teams

 

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, meadows said:

Josh when you answer a point by telling me a perfectly affable open and inoffensive conversation I had with a footballer 21 years ago couldn't possibly have involved him answering a simple question openly and honestly, or in a straightforward manner, when you see conspiracy and subterfuge At even such an insignificant turn, when you approach a discussion from that curious and unlikely standpoint, I do wonder whether it's worth wasting the time answering your points.  

You misquoted me and called me a member of the conspiracy brigade despite me having a reasoned discussion with you. So it clearly isn't anything to do with how you are answered it is just a further action in your weird campaign to paint BRFCS in a bad light.

Don't try and justify your own witch-hunt on this forum on the actions of others. You tried it with Dunnfc and got found out - don't make the same mistake twice because that would make you silly as well as petty.

 

[J*B]

5 minutes ago, meadows said:

Josh when you answer a point by telling me a perfectly affable open and inoffensive conversation I had with a footballer 21 years ago couldn't possibly have involved him answering a simple question openly and honestly, or in a straightforward manner, when you see conspiracy and subterfuge at even such an insignificant turn, when you approach a discussion from that curious and unlikely standpoint, I do wonder whether it's worth wasting the time answering your points.  

If you can't accept that what a footballer says to a journalist may be different to what they genuinely think/believe we all may as well give up. When David Dunn said all the fans should back Kean do you think he meant it or was saying what he needed to say a professional to a reporter? 

[perthblue02]

Will be even cheaper moving everything to the super duper Academy in India that they built, won't be long before that one is paying dividends , 6 years later it's looking state of the art