[Archived] Transfers Part 3

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Eddie said:

I'm not saying that we won't be better off, but the reality is that, right now, we don't have any alternatives. 

There needs to be an aspect of realism to the criticism. 

They have made a complete mess of this club. Since they have taken over they have done everything wrong. Taken us from a reasonably comfortable premier league club to a league one club, and pulled it off faster than anyone could have imagined.

They don't know what they are doing. They've taken advice from all the wrong parties. They've shown complete incompetence followed by a lack of interest.

Those are the facts and I don't think that anyone on here disagrees with them.

HOWEVER. Right now they are actually spending a lot of money relative to our current league status. It will be difficult to find a replacement where that same level of spending will be maintained.

The supporters need to be hoping for some sort of change and, personally, my hope is that we can get up straight back up to the Championship and then get a bit more interest from the kind of owners we would want. I don't think there is much chance of a change anytime soon, but that's what I'm hoping for.

That hope doesn't mean that I can't see our current situation for what it is. We are now a big fish in a very small pond being supported by our owners. They may have been the cause of our demise, but it is not Stockholm Syndrome to now realise that we are dependent on them for the time being.

They are spending money, they are keeping the club running. For now, that's more than any other potential owners are offering.

I suppose my frustration comes from the section of our supporters who no longer see supporting the club (the club, not the owners) as their priority. Their priority is to not show support for our owners. I think it is a shame. I think they run a serious risk of not having a club to go back to. I see the kind of atmosphere we were able to create against Burnley and just wish we could have that every week, as, regardless of what is going on off the pitch, that would help us on it. 

The Raos are not the personification of evil. They are just a family who had no business being involved in football. They don't understand it. I feel sorry for them in the respect that I don't think any of this was malicious, just purely incompetent and they were taken advantage of by those in the football world who saw dollar signs flashing in front of their eyes. 

Right now though, in this moment view independently from the past, they are doing their job as owners. If we were to be sold and new owners came in and did exactly what they are doing right now, we would be quite content. 

This is off topic from the transfer discussion, and I don't want to take it back into the same old debate on ownership. 

Hopefully we sign another defender. 

I would say they are malicious in the way they've continued to run the club into the ground when anyone else would have held up their hands, admitted their failure, and put the club in the hands of proper owners.

That's malicious.

[Dreams of 1995]

11 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I'm not saying that we won't be better off, but the reality is that, right now, we don't have any alternatives. 

There needs to be an aspect of realism to the criticism. 

They have made a complete mess of this club. Since they have taken over they have done everything wrong. Taken us from a reasonably comfortable premier league club to a league one club, and pulled it off faster than anyone could have imagined.

They don't know what they are doing. They've taken advice from all the wrong parties. They've shown complete incompetence followed by a lack of interest.

Those are the facts and I don't think that anyone on here disagrees with them.

HOWEVER. Right now they are actually spending a lot of money relative to our current league status. It will be difficult to find a replacement where that same level of spending will be maintained.

The supporters need to be hoping for some sort of change and, personally, my hope is that we can get up straight back up to the Championship and then get a bit more interest from the kind of owners we would want. I don't think there is much chance of a change anytime soon, but that's what I'm hoping for.

That hope doesn't mean that I can't see our current situation for what it is. We are now a big fish in a very small pond being supported by our owners. They may have been the cause of our demise, but it is not Stockholm Syndrome to now realise that we are dependent on them for the time being.

They are spending money, they are keeping the club running. For now, that's more than any other potential owners are offering.

I suppose my frustration comes from the section of our supporters who no longer see supporting the club (the club, not the owners) as their priority. Their priority is to not show support for our owners. I think it is a shame. I think they run a serious risk of not having a club to go back to. I see the kind of atmosphere we were able to create against Burnley and just wish we could have that every week, as, regardless of what is going on off the pitch, that would help us on it. 

The Raos are not the personification of evil. They are just a family who had no business being involved in football. They don't understand it. I feel sorry for them in the respect that I don't think any of this was malicious, just purely incompetent and they were taken advantage of by those in the football world who saw dollar signs flashing in front of their eyes. 

Right now though, in this moment view independently from the past, they are doing their job as owners. If we were to be sold and new owners came in and did exactly what they are doing right now, we would be quite content. 

This is off topic from the transfer discussion, and I don't want to take it back into the same old debate on ownership. 

Hopefully we sign another defender. 

You have the principles of a great supporter and before I start on this note please don't take this as some kind of personal attack. It's obvious you care for the club. However, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Firstly, we are not spending a lot of money. With sales this summer we are actually only -£261k. You'll see other clubs are quite close to that spending and, indeed, Fleetwood have spent double that. Whilst it is true some clubs have 0 expenditure, mostly the lower table League 1 clubs I may add, they have utilised the loan market and brought in a similar amount of players. Further from that few clubs have lost the amount of players we have over the past 3 seasons. With efficient running of the club we should be sitting on a transfer surplus that goes into the tens of millions. (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/league-one/transfers/wettbewerb/GB3/saison_id/2017).

Note that the link is just for this season. Feel free to do as I have done and go back a few years to see we actually haven't spent over the top in comparison to our rivals.

Secondly, yes they are. They promised to respect the legacy of Jack Walker and promised us that the club would run the way in which we was accustomed to. It quickly became apparent that this wasn't the case. Good, honest people lost their jobs whilst the band of crooks the Venkys employed, funded and continue to do business with, rampaged through the club taking apart every stitch that had been sewn by Jack. The community had to act quick among rumours of asset sales such as Brockhall and Ewood to apply planning restrictions, people received threats, Sky interviews were made to feign the victim and utter contempt shown for us with the appointment and subsequent support of Kean. That is just the tip of the iceberg and relative to Rovers. Look a tad deeper into the Venkys and you'll see a trail of corruption and greed, ranging from the Lavasa Corporation and the lawsuit against them all the way to Balaji himself supposedly beating a business partner with an iron pole (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/Venkys-director-among-4-booked-after-manager-alleges-assault/articleshow/34550989.cms). These are people are pure evil; rich, corporate, distasteful souls that saw an opportunity to make money, either through the direct sales of assets or through, in my opinion, using a football club to absorb losses elsewhere and hide the true state of affairs in the Venkys portfolio and took it. They shown utter disregard for our club, our town and you. IF they had any principles they would have, by now, sought adequate advice and appointed somebody to run the club on a day to day basis that was both transparent and respected. Instead they opt for a ghost in Suhail, loyal to only them, and advise him not to speak to the fans. That isn't incompetence, that is the definition of malicious.

Finally if new owners came in and ran the club the way in which it is being run I'd be just as angry. Need I remind you we have no board, had no communication except the "we are committed", a threadbare squad and owners that haven't attended in years. How can you be happy with what's going on at the moment?

[JAL]

1 hour ago, Parsonblue said:

Thankfully not now that Ryan's got a nice long contract to remain at the club for the next few years.  He has the potential to be a pretty decent right-back which should make you happy!

What your saying to me and all the Rovers supporters is that you've stitched us up and another footballing dud. 

Cheers Parsons !

How much is he on and what's the cut taken by Mr. Simon Conning ?

[JHRover]

18 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Your post is generally well thought out but I cannot agree about them spending money relative to our status. Since July we have lost several big earners including Steele, Lowe and Henley with a saving of around £40k a week on their wages. The number of players out is disproportionate to the numbers in so there is another saving there. And if/when we ship Lenihan out the fee will probably cover our spending on fees for incoming players. They have reputedly spent £800k on business consultants to advise what? Close down Radio Rovers, reduce the quality of the match day programme, cut the hours of the ticket office staff? Nothing has really changed in the last seven years, the mistakes are still being made but now we simply don't have the profile in the media and most of the nonsense goes under the radar.

The Raos have pretty much killed this club so from a footballing perspective they are the personification of evil to me.

Exactly. I wish people would carefully consider the money in/out and savings made this summer before suggesting Venkys are stumping up out of their own pockets to try and launch us back into the Championship.

As you say, the monies saved month by month on wages will very quickly cover the amounts paid out on transfers. When we factor in the cash brought in for Steele, Mahoney and possibly another before tomorrow night then we're down to about £200,000 spent net which is about a month's wages for Lowe and Akpan.

No evidence whatsoever that any lessons have been learned from relegation. No difference to the setup or structure, no difference to communication.

Only difference is they've allowed some spending ahead of sales unlike the last few years because they appear to like this manager more than others on the basis of a few meetings in India in May (again allowing personal views to come before results).

The structure of this club is critically flawed and will ensure this club fails to achieve what it is capable of doing. Whether that be league position, financial performance, crowds. When Accy Stanley, Fleetwood and Fylde have more nous and depth on their board of directors than we have then there's only one way its going.

I would like nothing more than to give them another chance. I am a forgiving person and in the absence of new owners the next best thing for me would be to wipe the slate clean and afford them a fresh start. Unfortunately to earn that they need to start showing they are learning and taking this seriously, and unfortunately there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they are any more serious about this club than they were 3,4,5 years ago.

I also refuse to give them credit for keeping the bills paid and keeping the doors open. That is their responsibility that they signed up to when buying the club. It is the equivalent of any of us paying our mortgage. We sign up for it, know it is going to come every month and know what happens if we stop paying it.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

I'm not saying that we won't be better off, but the reality is that, right now, we don't have any alternatives. 

There needs to be an aspect of realism to the criticism. 

They have made a complete mess of this club. Since they have taken over they have done everything wrong. Taken us from a reasonably comfortable premier league club to a league one club, and pulled it off faster than anyone could have imagined.

They don't know what they are doing. They've taken advice from all the wrong parties. They've shown complete incompetence followed by a lack of interest.

Those are the facts and I don't think that anyone on here disagrees with them.

HOWEVER. Right now they are actually spending a lot of money relative to our current league status. It will be difficult to find a replacement where that same level of spending will be maintained.

The supporters need to be hoping for some sort of change and, personally, my hope is that we can get up straight back up to the Championship and then get a bit more interest from the kind of owners we would want. I don't think there is much chance of a change anytime soon, but that's what I'm hoping for.

That hope doesn't mean that I can't see our current situation for what it is. We are now a big fish in a very small pond being supported by our owners. They may have been the cause of our demise, but it is not Stockholm Syndrome to now realise that we are dependent on them for the time being.

They are spending money, they are keeping the club running. For now, that's more than any other potential owners are offering.

I suppose my frustration comes from the section of our supporters who no longer see supporting the club (the club, not the owners) as their priority. Their priority is to not show support for our owners. I think it is a shame. I think they run a serious risk of not having a club to go back to. I see the kind of atmosphere we were able to create against Burnley and just wish we could have that every week, as, regardless of what is going on off the pitch, that would help us on it. 

The Raos are not the personification of evil. They are just a family who had no business being involved in football. They don't understand it. I feel sorry for them in the respect that I don't think any of this was malicious, just purely incompetent and they were taken advantage of by those in the football world who saw dollar signs flashing in front of their eyes. 

Right now though, in this moment view independently from the past, they are doing their job as owners. If we were to be sold and new owners came in and did exactly what they are doing right now, we would be quite content. 

This is off topic from the transfer discussion, and I don't want to take it back into the same old debate on ownership. 

Hopefully we sign another defender. 

Some good points but this feeling sorry for them and them being fleeced ?  Mate come on for gods sake it's 2017 they've been here nearly 7 years that just doesn't wash anymore. It's taken a relegation to the clubs lowest point for nearly 40 years and  two firms of accountants to attempt anything like stability yet they had that a few years ago and a guy making them money but they refused to back him and sacked him instead. Only just 12 months ago they hired Owen Coyle for gods sake after their directors had lined up Warnock. That isn't being fleeced it looks like continuing to take direction off those who did some fleecing in the first place, WHY ?

They don't give a toss they use the clubs books for accounting purposes it's glaringly obvious and only the threat it was probably about to go to the wall because the bank was getting tetchy without a really serious outside cash injection prompted some action. They are con artists even if it's not in a criminal way.

[lraC]

Some interesting posts from Eddie and Dreams of 1995 above. As this is a transfer thread, I just wanted to point out, that currently Bolton Wanders, are under the transfer embargo, that we once were. The reason for mentioning them, is they very much like us, were in serious debt trouble and suffered premier league to league one relegations, in a short space of time. It looks to me, unless they perform a miracle in the next two days, on the transfer front, they will be back in league one next year.

I have followed their situation a touch, as I used to live in Bolton and a few of my mates there and ex in laws are big fans. Their take over to me, was slapdash and they are now paying the consequences. I thought it was a miracle that they got promoted last season and think the majority shareholder, is something of a chancer, trying to make a quick buck. They are in serious danger of a points deduction and their financial position is perilous.

 

The reason, I mention it, is I see Rovers as a similar target, if there is a take over. I believe it is vital, if we do get rid of the current clowns, that a proper fan representation is somehow included in any new ownership.

[K-Hod]

15 minutes ago, JAL said:

What your saying to me and all the Rovers supporters is that you've stitched us up and another footballing dud. 

Cheers Parsons !

How much is he on and what's the cut taken by Mr. Simon Conning ?

Google is your friend, JAL.

[Guest]

According to Transfermarkt, our squad is the most valuable in League One (£14m), and worth some £3m more than the next most valuable squad (Wigan Athletic).

We've got the best squad on paper. Any issues we face this season will be down to how they are managed. Make no mistake, Mowbray is under pressure, but a recent string of good results will hopefully see us pick up some real momentum.

On the note about momentum, I think postponing the Fleetwood match is a mistake. Teams will go further out of reach from us, and I don't know at this moment in time if we have the mental strength and confidence to deal with that just yet. It's certainly early doors, so no need for panic, but with our run of away games coming up, I'm a bit concerned about how things will be looking for us in a month's time.

[lraC]

For some of the none transfer posts on this thread, think back to last summer and what happened to bring the Coyle appointment about. A story hit the press about it, last week and certainly points suspicion yet again, in the  direction of the owners. Can they have made the same mistake again, that lead to the first relegation, or is there something else going on?

[lraC]

Just now, Phil T said:

According to Transfermarkt, our squad is the most valuable in League One (£14m), and worth some £3m more than the next most valuable squad (Wigan Athletic).

We've got the best squad on paper. Any issues we face this season will be down to how they are managed. Make no mistake, Mowbray is under pressure, but a recent string of good results will hopefully see us pick up some real momentum.

On the note about momentum, I think postponing the Fleetwood match is a mistake. Teams will go further out of reach from us, and I don't know at this moment in time if we have the mental strength and confidence to deal with that just yet. It's certainly early doors, so no need for panic, but with our run of away games coming up, I'm a bit concerned about how things will be looking for us in a month's time.

I guess this posts assumes that we would win, if we played the game against Fleetwood. With Mulgrew missing in particular, that is not a forgone conclusion.

[arbitro]

9 minutes ago, lraC said:

I guess this posts assumes that we would win, if we played the game against Fleetwood. With Mulgrew missing in particular, that is not a forgone conclusion.

And with the benefit of hindsight we could have been down to Ward as our only fit centre half with Nyambe and Williams getting injured last night.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, lraC said:

I guess this posts assumes that we would win, if we played the game against Fleetwood. With Mulgrew missing in particular, that is not a forgone conclusion.

Both arguments are understandable. Mulgrew is by far our most important player, and has contributed a lot ever since he arrived. His set-pieces are also proving to be invaluable. He would certainly be a big miss to the team.

However, the team isn't about one player, and we have other players in the team who are starting to show form; Chapman and Samuel to name just two, with Ward and Williams possibly building up to good form, too. I think keeping our back-to-back league win momentum going holds more weight than having a two-week break for the sake of a couple of players who could easily get injured later on in the season anyway.

A draw would be decent away at Fleetwood. We haven't fared too well in local derbies as of late, and Fleetwood will certainly be promotion challengers.

[lraC]

1 minute ago, Phil T said:

Both arguments are understandable. Mulgrew is by far our most important player, and has contributed a lot ever since he arrived. His set-pieces are also proving to be invaluable. He would certainly be a big miss to the team.

However, the team isn't about one player, and we have other players in the team who are starting to show form; Chapman and Samuel to name just two, with Ward and Williams possibly building up to good form, too. I think keeping our back-to-back league win momentum going holds more weight than having a two-week break for the sake of a couple of players who could easily get injured later on in the season anyway.

A draw would be decent away at Fleetwood. We haven't fared too well in local derbies as of late, and Fleetwood will certainly be promotion challengers.

The game was due to be played at Ewood, which I guess would give us a better chance of the three points, but no guarantee, as we all know.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, lraC said:

The game was due to be played at Ewood, which I guess would give us a better chance of the three points, but no guarantee, as we all know.

Oops, my mistake! We'd need to look at three points at home, certainly. I still think playing it on Saturday would work out better for us. And given the sentiment about Williams on here, I'm surprised many now seem to be concerned about him being injured.

[lraC]

Just now, Phil T said:

Oops, my mistake! We'd need to look at three points at home, certainly. I still think playing it on Saturday would work out better for us. And given the sentiment about Williams on here, I'm surprised many now seem to be concerned about him being injured.

Can you imagine if the club agreed to play it and we lost? Meltdown time on here, for certain, not to mention other outlets.

[Oldgregg86]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

I'm not saying that we won't be better off, but the reality is that, right now, we don't have any alternatives. 

There needs to be an aspect of realism to the criticism. 

They have made a complete mess of this club. Since they have taken over they have done everything wrong. Taken us from a reasonably comfortable premier league club to a league one club, and pulled it off faster than anyone could have imagined.

They don't know what they are doing. They've taken advice from all the wrong parties. They've shown complete incompetence followed by a lack of interest.

Those are the facts and I don't think that anyone on here disagrees with them.

HOWEVER. Right now they are actually spending a lot of money relative to our current league status. It will be difficult to find a replacement where that same level of spending will be maintained.

The supporters need to be hoping for some sort of change and, personally, my hope is that we can get up straight back up to the Championship and then get a bit more interest from the kind of owners we would want. I don't think there is much chance of a change anytime soon, but that's what I'm hoping for.

That hope doesn't mean that I can't see our current situation for what it is. We are now a big fish in a very small pond being supported by our owners. They may have been the cause of our demise, but it is not Stockholm Syndrome to now realise that we are dependent on them for the time being.

They are spending money, they are keeping the club running. For now, that's more than any other potential owners are offering.

I suppose my frustration comes from the section of our supporters who no longer see supporting the club (the club, not the owners) as their priority. Their priority is to not show support for our owners. I think it is a shame. I think they run a serious risk of not having a club to go back to. I see the kind of atmosphere we were able to create against Burnley and just wish we could have that every week, as, regardless of what is going on off the pitch, that would help us on it. 

The Raos are not the personification of evil. They are just a family who had no business being involved in football. They don't understand it. I feel sorry for them in the respect that I don't think any of this was malicious, just purely incompetent and they were taken advantage of by those in the football world who saw dollar signs flashing in front of their eyes. 

Right now though, in this moment view independently from the past, they are doing their job as owners. If we were to be sold and new owners came in and did exactly what they are doing right now, we would be quite content. 

This is off topic from the transfer discussion, and I don't want to take it back into the same old debate on ownership. 

Hopefully we sign another defender. 

That was potentially a superb post. I was with you all the way down to the tenth stanza. How anyone could feel sorry for or show any sympathy for these cretins is beyond me. They haven't been sympathetic to the fans continually holding an olive branch , to try and rectify these " badly advised" decisions, they have showed nothing but contempt. They haven't shown sympathy towards the people that lost their minimum wage jobs through there decisions.  They weren't sympathetic  when they appointed coyle knowing our deep hatred of all things dingle. They don't deserve your sympathy. They may not be the personification of evil but they are still self serving cuntts

[AllRoverAsia]

We were only able to get out of playing Fleetwood due to a recent incoming transfer. A goalkeeper, failed at Switzeland try Canada. Patheitc really.

If Raya keeps his form  and is injury free the 'Canadian' will not play for Rovers first team. And we have Fisher.

The Fleetwood game was a chance to play without Mulgrew and Evans as practice for when they are out injured after playing for Scotland and NI.

I am just sore not being able to watch on telly.

[JHRover]

Not many teams pass up the opportunity to postpone a fixture during the international break. Sure Sheffield United took the opportunity last season and it didn't stop them strolling to the title.

[Guest]

Just now, lraC said:

Can you imagine if the club agreed to play it and we lost? Meltdown time on here, for certain, not to mention other outlets.

That's life, though, isn't it? Play it and win, "Great call from Mowbray to play it while we were picking up some form!". Play it and lose (or even draw), "Mowbray had the choice to postpone it and he didn't. Stupid decision, given our best player and Evans weren't available! Mowbray out!".

Mowbray's chosen to postpone the match. As the season wears on, games come thicker and faster, and with our squad size (smallest in the league!), I really wonder if he's given us a better or worse chance of winning this match. Let's hope he's made the right choice.

[RoverCanada]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Firstly, we are not spending a lot of money. With sales this summer we are actually only -£261k. You'll see other clubs are quite close to that spending and, indeed, Fleetwood have spent double that. Whilst it is true some clubs have 0 expenditure, mostly the lower table League 1 clubs I may add, they have utilised the loan market and brought in a similar amount of players. Further from that few clubs have lost the amount of players we have over the past 3 seasons. With efficient running of the club we should be sitting on a transfer surplus that goes into the tens of millions. (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/league-one/transfers/wettbewerb/GB3/saison_id/2017).

Note that the link is just for this season. Feel free to do as I have done and go back a few years to see we actually haven't spent over the top in comparison to our rivals.

Be wary quoting transfermarkt. When no official transfer fee is reported, they either have "?" (as is the case for Samuel) or they report an estimated transfer fee that is based on a player's age, experience, and how much time was left on their contract. As an example of the latter, they have Steele's fee for when we bought him from Middlesbrough at £1.01m, when it was reported to be only £100k (only reportedly, but given Steele was Middlesbrough's 3rd stringer at the time...). Also, would you really still believe Antonsson has a market value of £1.8m ?

Let's assume a nominal fee of £50k for Leutwiler (rather than '?'), £500k (as has been reported) for Samuel (rather than '?'), they have Dack at £765k instead of £750k for some reason; let's assume the latter, Mowbray apparently said Gladwin was a free + add-ons, but let's assume £100k. That gives £1.4m in transfer expenditure, minus £500k received for Steele. Not sure what we can expect from the Mahoney Bosman; maybe £250k? That'd put our net transfer expenditure at £650k. Perhaps you'd also add whatever Stokes' payoff (here's hoping it was minimal!).

And, as I've harped on before, this all ignores wages, which will always far, far surpass net transfers. Our overall wage expenditure has undoubtedly fallen this year with relegation clauses and the likes of Lowe, Henley, Guthrie, Akpan, etc. out the door. However, we have also added Whittingham, Smallwood, and Caddis on frees, the first two likely on above average League 1 wages, not to mention the wages of the players we spent fees on above (Dack and Samuel are probably on high League 1 wages too). There may be fees and wage contributions for Chapman and Antonsson too, but that'd be pure speculation (also for last year's loans that ended for Gallagher, Emnres, Joao, etc.)

Now, the change in Venky's 'investment' also depends on how much our revenue has dropped going down to League 1 (this is oddly oft ignored. I think some have pointed out League 1 has less restrictions on owner expenditure compared to FFP in the Championship, and have thus suggested there's not limit to what Venky's can spend, although I have a suspicion those same posters also bemoan how much debt Venky's have racked up over the years...).

We had turnover of £22M in 15/16, made up of £3.5m match day, £13.5m media, and £5m commercial. Once parachute payments end, as they did last year, media revenue for Championship clubs falls to about £5m (it may be slightly higher now, I'm looking at 13/14 figures). Hence our revenue was likely only £14-16m last year. I'm not clear on what media revenue falls to in League 1, but Millwall, for example, only had media revenue of £2m last year. Let's assume we still manage £3m of media revenue this year, match day falls to £3m, and commercial holds at £4m. Turnover of ~£10m vs ~£22m a couple years ago? (setting aside what it was in the PL...) No @#/? overall owner investment is going to fall.

Overall, how Venky's investment has 'changed' is = (16/17 wages/other expenditures - 16/17 turnover +/- 16/17 net transfers) - (17/18 wages/other expenditures - 17/18 turnover +/- 17/18 net transfers).

We know 17/18 wage/other expenditures will be much lower. It was £36m in 15/16, including staff costs of £25m. Let's guess that staff costs had fallen to £18m with the general net outgoing of players (Duffy, Hanley, Marshall etc. wages - Graham, Stokes, Williams, etc. wages), and operating costs had fallen from £11m to £9m in 16/17. Say the wage bill has been cut in half with net outgoings (Lowe, Henley, Brown, etc. wages - Dack, Whittingham, Smallwood, etc. wages) plus relegation clauses to £9m this year. Operation expenditure down maybe £3m to £6m. Turnover down from £14-16m to £9-10m. That puts us at an operating loss of £5-6m versus an underlying loss of £14-15m a couple years ago (which Venky's largely recouped in 16/17 by selling Hanley, Duffy, and Marshall, but in past years piled on debt to cover those losses)

So, to summarise the above, Venky's are still funding the club, in one way or another (their own money, or Bank of India-backed debt, whatever), and are likely still going to be covering losses this year (and hence are 'investing'), but that 'investment' (which I'm defining as losses 'covered') has fallen from ~£15m in the Championship (which wasn't sustainable under FFP anyway) to £5-6m in League 1. My suspicion is losing £1-7m/year isn't a big deal to Venky's, hence why they've apparently somewhat opened the taps this year, but the losses of £20-40m of years past was starting to put a strain on how much debt they could build up, hence the gradual outgoings of Cairney, Gestede, Rhodes, Hanley, Duffy...

If Venky's do end up funding net transfer expenditure of £500k-£1m this window, sure that's quite high by League 1 standards, as would be a covering an overall loss of £5m, but the overall expenditure Venky's is maintaining is much less than before (which goes with the territory of a second relegation...), whether they spend £1m in transfers, or recoup a net £1m if we do end up selling Lenihan and/or Graham.

Any critiques of my above (occasionally very shaky!) assumptions is of course welcome  Just trying to sort out some numbers that I've been wondering about.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Oldgregg86 said:

That was potentially a superb post. I was with you all the way down to the tenth stanza. How anyone could feel sorry for or show any sympathy for these cretins is beyond me. They haven't been sympathetic to the fans continually holding an olive branch , to try and rectify these " badly advised" decisions, they have showed nothing but contempt. They haven't shown sympathy towards the people that lost their minimum wage jobs through there decisions.  They weren't sympathetic  when they appointed coyle knowing our deep hatred of all things dingle. They don't deserve your sympathy. They may not be the personification of evil but they are still self serving cuntts

If they came out and said we won't invest but we'll keep the lights on for the next 3 years and immediately put the club up for sale then they might get a degree of understanding and if it can't be sold for a sensible price in that time and they continue to keep the lights on at their expense they might even get a degree of 'well they are stuck with it'..

Apart from that no chance, they didn't know what they were getting into and the dream quickly turned sour but sheer ignorance to get a grip of it years ago evaporated any shred  of sympathy from most Rovers fans I think. If you look at the Coyle situation, his connections and the fact hiring/firing him and his people, allowing him and his connections to foist  rubbish like Brown, Stokes etc on the club and his overall presence all but rubber stamping relegation then hire Mowbray etc all that lot in the last 12 months has cost the club 10 million probably.

All 100% avoidable and all down Barry and his advisors, quite possibly the ones who did the initial fleecing, no need for them to be around or keep getting their way, or is there ?

Sympathy ?   Get stuffed !

[philipl]

Yes Venky's are still funding us.

For whatever reason they appear determine to continue owning us when they have had multiple opportunities to sell, one of which would have landed them a monster profit.

So I cannot say I am feeling sorry for them. Well not before feeling sorry for about 200,000 other Blackburn Rovers stakeholders.

Feeling quite happy with the end of this transfer window thus far....

 

 

 

 

[JHRover]

13 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If they came out and said we won't invest but we'll keep the lights on for the next 3 years and immediately put the club up for sale then they might get a degree of understanding and if it can't be sold for a sensible price in that time and they continue to keep the lights on at their expense they might even get a degree of 'well they are stuck with it'..

Apart from that no chance, they didn't know what they were getting into and the dream quickly turned sour but sheer ignorance to get a grip of it years ago evaporated any shred of shred of sympathy from most Rovers fans I think. If you look at the Coyle situation, his connections and the fact hiring/firing him and his people, allowing him and his connections to foist  rubbish like Brown, Stokes etc on the club and his overall presence all but rubber stamping relegation then hire Mowbray etc all that lot in the last 12 months has cost the club 10 million probably.

All 100% avoidable and all down Barry and his advisors, quite possibly the ones who did the initial fleecing, no need for them to be around or keep getting their way, or is there ?

Sympathy ?   Get stuffed !

Exactly. I'm struggling to be grateful for their financial 'investment' when in the last 12 months they've lost another fortune through sheer stupidity.

The appointment of Coyle wasn't just an innocent managerial appointment that went wrong. Anyone involved in football knew it was a disaster waiting to happen, yet the people making decisions here allowed it to, guaranteeing relegation, lost revenues, further fan anger, a tidy pay off for him and his mates and being saddled with overpaid dross.

Why should I be grateful that they are keeping the lights on after that fiasco? They deserve to be hurt financially after that ludicrous, insane business. The fans suffered through having to watch Coyle being paraded around Brockhall, insulting comments from Cheston about him being the 'outstanding candidate' and then watching Coyle prance up and down in the dugout whilst sending us into the 3rd tier and paying for the privilege.

I've had to pay for their mistakes. I bought a season ticket and had to watch Coyle take us into the 3rd division when it was all so avoidable. Why shouldn't Venkys have to suffer?

If they accepted the errors of their ways and then took serious steps to avoid repeats in future then I might have some sort of sympathy. They were supposed to have learnt lessons by the time Bowyer got the job, yet the last 12 months have told us they haven't changed at all and If anything are quite happy with the merry-go-round of staff and players costing millions a year to fund. Ultimately if they're happy with continued decline and shovelling millions in to do it then that's their choice, but they aren't going to get my gratitude to do it.

 

[lraC]

19 minutes ago, philipl said:

Yes Venky's are still funding us.

For whatever reason they appear determine to continue owning us when they have had multiple opportunities to sell, one of which would have landed them a monster profit.

So I cannot say I am feeling sorry for them. Well not before feeling sorry for about 200,000 other Blackburn Rovers stakeholders.

Feeling quite happy with the end of this transfer window thus far....

 

 

 

 

Strange isn't it, when all they see is money coming out of their accounts and into the clubs, to fund the demise? Given the opportunities to bail out, especially the one given by Ian and Ian that the failed to even acknowledge, you have to wonder, what their real intentions are.

[rovers11]

Interesting quotes from TM on Danny Graham. Sounds like he's not been too impressed with his attitude so far this season. 

Could be one to watch over the next 24 hours.