[Archived] Transfers Part 3

[Stuart]

51 minutes ago, Madon said:

My friend is a grassroots coach and is at Brockhall today, tells me that he's just seen Tony Watt pull up... Chinese Whispers obviously but that's what I've been told!

Think I know him. Is your friend So Yu Lu-King?

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, Stuart said:

It’s not so much signing Tony Watt as it is who he is replacing. If Chapman isn’t returning then it kind of fits (as a poor second) but if someone else is on the way then it’s not great.

A satisfactory transfer window will be keeping hold of what we have. A successful one will be adding to it with a little quality.

Going off Chapmans Instagram, he is coming back here. He posted a video of himself on an exercise bike yesterday 

[Madon]

12 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Going off Chapmans Instagram, he is coming back here. He posted a video of himself on an exercise bike yesterday 

And I'm pretty sure he was in Dublin with the rest of the team last week.

[Guest]

Leuven don't play again until 5th January, and Watt is back in Scotland at the moment, so if this transfer really is a goer, it's probably the opportune moment for Leuven to sort the sale out before the transfer window starts.

Paul Lambert signed Watt on loan for us last year. Maybe if Mulgrew is influencing the situation, perhaps Celtic connections are a real pull for Watt.

[Norbert Rassragr]

But Watt is not that great. He's a bit like Stokes but maybe less of a jerk. 

[Admiral Nelsen]

4 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

But Watt is not that great. He's a bit like Stokes but maybe less of a jerk. 

 

I think that was always the problem with Stokes, rather than his ability, no?

[Bigdoggsteel]

5 minutes ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

But Watt is not that great. He's a bit like Stokes but maybe less of a jerk. 

A bit like him in what way? I would say they are very different players. Jerk wise, I would say Stokes wins hands down. I think Watt just gets distracted easily, but I don't remember any disciplinary issues.

[AAK]

Tony Watt as been putting pictures of himself in a rovers shirt on twitter, so maybe he is signing???? I thought he was excellent a couple of seasons ago, if Tony can get him to knuckle down he will be a good singing.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, AAK said:

Tony Watt as been putting pictures of himself in a rovers shirt on twitter, so maybe he is signing????

I think it's only one picture of himself that he Tweeted recently (below). His Twitter cover photo has him in a Celtic shirt. As @Tom originally posted, it's a bit cryptic, and there could be nothing in it.

 

[Mike E]

Watt with a view to replacing Graham, perhaps?

[JBiz]

6 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

It's not writing him off. It's looking at the talent he has at his disposal and allowing him to remain at a level he can be competitive. On our budget we can't take passengers and I am firmly of the opinion there would be better players out there that will be cheaper and younger.

I still don't think he looks a different player as when he isn't scoring. He has a great ability to finish, the hallmark of a good striker, but can't be trusted to lead the line. He's certainly made the left side of a front 4 his own but the Championship is a huge step up and when I see him struggling to break down teams at this level I can just imagine what it will be like at a team like Derby or Villa away next season.

I'd personally be happy if we thanked him for his year here, looked back on him with fondness and spent money elsewhere rather than spend a limited budget on a player that hasn't shown the ability to "step up", like players like Dack/Downing have for example.

I don’t think he has much to do to up his game to suit the level above, especially considering the age - I’d call 27-30 peak for strikers. A run of games, in a team that suits him - I personally think it’s difficult to argue against the potential of any player improving, especially if they still possess natural physical attributes. The hardworking element especially. Plenty of examples to find.

I’d call judging someone’s overall “talent” at their pinnacle, as a striker on the 10/15 appearances this season, in a changing and mainly new team, often played wide left - pretty much writing them off. I agree that priority would be someone like Chapman on a permanent but that might be a bit pie in the sky.

As I said previously, I’ve never felt it was black and white “league one” level etc - I think some players are obviously top flight worthy on sheer technical ability alone. We’ve all seen many “premier league” players sink fast in the championship.

If the opportunity came to take him on sensible terms, on the assumption his 7 figure transfer to Leeds included a decent salary they may wish to vacate; Id be pleased to see it happen.

[Tom]

Can Twatt play on the left? Shart isn't pulling up any trees so we need more options there 

[Dreams of 1995]

16 minutes ago, Biz said:

I don’t think he has much to do to up his game to suit the level above, especially considering the age - I’d call 27-30 peak for strikers. A run of games, in a team that suits him - I personally think it’s difficult to argue against the potential of any player improving, especially if they still possess natural physical attributes. The hardworking element especially. Plenty of examples to find.

I’d call judging someone’s overall “talent” at their pinnacle, as a striker on the 10/15 appearances this season, in a changing and mainly new team, often played wide left - pretty much writing them off. I agree that priority would be someone like Chapman on a permanent but that might be a bit pie in the sky.

As I said previously, I’ve never felt it was black and white “league one” level etc - I think some players are obviously top flight worthy on sheer technical ability alone. We’ve all seen many “premier league” players sink fast in the championship.

If the opportunity came to take him on sensible terms, on the assumption his 7 figure transfer to Leeds included a decent salary they may wish to vacate; Id be pleased to see it happen.

He has a lot to do to up his game. A lot. I'm not saying he 100% won't succeed but there are definitely better players out there than him, both on the left wing and up front. I certainly wouldn't be paying a fee for him. If we do go up to the Championship he'd be a squad player at best in my eyes.

I am judging Antonsson after seeing him play for us this season and having been witness to Championship football for years. You can tell if a player is going to suit. You know that Dack could make the step up because of the way he plays, his reading of the game, his technical ability and his physicality. With Antonsson you are never sure what you are going to get even at this level. Similarly when you watch him play 8/10 times that he touches the ball he loses it, coupled with the fact that 8/10 of his "chase downs" result in nothing points towards a lack of awareness. He's an ok player but that's it.

Look, Mowbray isn't going to listen to us and he might have eyes on signing him. Yet as DE. pointed out his contract isn't up until 2019, so that indicates a fee will be involved, and would you really waste a fee + a decent wage on Antonsson having seen him play this season? If so you must be watching a different Antonsson to 98% of the fans out there.

There's also a difference between a Premier League player and a player that has played in the Premier League. A player that has the quality to fulfil a career in the PL will  not sink in the Championship (save an ageing player) and I'd be interested to hear your examples of that. Your idea that it isn't black and white is admirable but frankly there are players with the talent to succeed at a high level and those that aren't; they wouldn't pay excessive amounts for people to spot that if it was just a case of giving a lad a go in this or that team.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

He has a lot to do to up his game. A lot. I'm not saying he 100% won't succeed but there are definitely better players out there than him, both on the left wing and up front. I certainly wouldn't be paying a fee for him. If we do go up to the Championship he'd be a squad player at best in my eyes.

I am judging Antonsson after seeing him play for us this season and having been witness to Championship football for years. You can tell if a player is going to suit. You know that Dack could make the step up because of the way he plays, his reading of the game, his technical ability and his physicality. With Antonsson you are never sure what you are going to get even at this level. Similarly when you watch him play 8/10 times that he touches the ball he loses it, coupled with the fact that 8/10 of his "chase downs" result in nothing points towards a lack of awareness. He's an ok player but that's it.

Look, Mowbray isn't going to listen to us and he might have eyes on signing him. Yet as DE. pointed out his contract isn't up until 2019, so that indicates a fee will be involved, and would you really waste a fee + a decent wage on Antonsson having seen him play this season? If so you must be watching a different Antonsson to 98% of the fans out there.

There's also a difference between a Premier League player and a player that has played in the Premier League. A player that has the quality to fulfil a career in the PL will  not sink in the Championship (save an ageing player) and I'd be interested to hear your examples of that. Your idea that it isn't black and white is admirable but frankly there are players with the talent to succeed at a high level and those that aren't; they wouldn't pay excessive amounts for people to spot that if it was just a case of giving a lad a go in this or that team.

I would say it's closer to 50/50 as to whether we keep him, to be honest. Not sure where your random 98% is from 

As for his example of players who do well in the Premier league, only to never make it back following a relegation, it happens plenty. Countless examples. Just look at the teams relegated any year and you will have players who did well in the Premiership, plenty of them stay with the clubs they went down with. His point stands that its never as black and white as players just been good enough for a certain level, an example would be Vardy, non league 1 season, Premier league winner a few seasons later. 

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

He has a lot to do to up his game. A lot. I'm not saying he 100% won't succeed but there are definitely better players out there than him, both on the left wing and up front. I certainly wouldn't be paying a fee for him. If we do go up to the Championship he'd be a squad player at best in my eyes.

I am judging Antonsson after seeing him play for us this season and having been witness to Championship football for years. You can tell if a player is going to suit. You know that Dack could make the step up because of the way he plays, his reading of the game, his technical ability and his physicality. With Antonsson you are never sure what you are going to get even at this level. Similarly when you watch him play 8/10 times that he touches the ball he loses it, coupled with the fact that 8/10 of his "chase downs" result in nothing points towards a lack of awareness. He's an ok player but that's it.

Look, Mowbray isn't going to listen to us and he might have eyes on signing him. Yet as DE. pointed out his contract isn't up until 2019, so that indicates a fee will be involved, and would you really waste a fee + a decent wage on Antonsson having seen him play this season? If so you must be watching a different Antonsson to 98% of the fans out there.

There's also a difference between a Premier League player and a player that has played in the Premier League. A player that has the quality to fulfil a career in the PL will  not sink in the Championship (save an ageing player) and I'd be interested to hear your examples of that. Your idea that it isn't black and white is admirable but frankly there are players with the talent to succeed at a high level and those that aren't; they wouldn't pay excessive amounts for people to spot that if it was just a case of giving a lad a go in this or that team.

At no point did I diminish the necessity for scouts, I’m talking about potential. There is no simple “quality” that makes a player a certain level, if there was - Burnley certainly are an example of a team that wouldn’t be in the position they are in.

On the relevant to Marcus part, squad players are a necessity, especially the forward positions. On the assumption our budgets aren’t great, you think 98% of the fanbase would turn up the opportunity to sign Marcus for likely a nominal fee? When they are considering his ripe age, improving performances, versatility and all around attitude? I think you’d probably be surprised on that one. 

There is no point going over old ground again, I never once overtly lauded him, but I’d argue the 8/10 he gives the ball away, runs down blind alleys stuff is absolute “Danny Murphy”. The relevance of the “majority” opinion is lost on me, as I’m here to give my own view point. To reiterate, I’d be pleased to see him signed up on a “sensible” deal on the basis of what I’ve seen.

[JBiz]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would say it's closer to 50/50 as to whether we keep him, to be honest. Not sure where your random 98% is from 

As for his example of players who do well in the Premier league, only to never make it back following a relegation, it happens plenty. Countless examples. Just look at the teams relegated any year and you will have players who did well in the Premiership, plenty of them stay with the clubs they went down with. His point stands that its never as black and white as players just been good enough for a certain level, an example would be Vardy, non league 1 season, Premier league winner a few seasons later. 

As well as Vardy, Andre Gray, Gary Hooper, Jordan Rhodes, Rickie Lambert, and Dwight Gayle are recent examples of players who have played/scored at many different levels. That’s without any actual research or googling.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

would you really waste a fee + a decent wage on Antonsson having seen him play this season?

Antonsson is here on loan for the remainder of the season, so we don't have to make that judgement just yet.

Goalscorers are gold dust, though. If you score goals, you don't need to worry about the rest of it too much.

[Dreams of 1995]

5 minutes ago, Biz said:

At no point did I diminish the necessity for scouts, I’m talking about potential. There is no simple “quality” that makes a player a certain level, if there was - Burnley certainly are an example of a team that wouldn’t be in the position they are in.

On the relevant to Marcus part, squad players are a necessity, especially the forward positions. On the assumption our budgets aren’t great, you think 98% of the fanbase would turn up the opportunity to sign Marcus for likely a nominal fee? When they are considering his ripe age, improving performances, versatility and all around attitude? I think you’d probably be surprised on that one. 

There is no point going over old ground again, I never once overtly lauded him, but I’d argue the 8/10 he gives the ball away, runs down blind alleys stuff is absolute “Danny Murphy”. The relevance of the “majority” opinion is lost on me, as I’m here to give my own view point. To reiterate, I’d be pleased to see him signed up on a “sensible” deal on the basis of what I’ve seen.

Burnley are where they are because they've bought good players and set themselves up well. Antonsson isn't a "good player". Gudmonson, their winger, is.

Either way if you disagree that he chases the ball down at the wrong times and say he doesn't give the ball away a huge amount of times per game you aren't watching him. He does it all the time.

 

11 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would say it's closer to 50/50 as to whether we keep him, to be honest. Not sure where your random 98% is from 

As for his example of players who do well in the Premier league, only to never make it back following a relegation, it happens plenty. Countless examples. Just look at the teams relegated any year and you will have players who did well in the Premiership, plenty of them stay with the clubs they went down with. His point stands that its never as black and white as players just been good enough for a certain level, an example would be Vardy, non league 1 season, Premier league winner a few seasons later. 

 

I think yourself & Biz are the first people I've heard keen to take Antonsson on in the summer, providing we're promoted, for a fee.

So name them then. Name a Premier League player, not a player that has simply played in the PL, that has flopped in a different league. As I have said there is a huge difference. John Terry is a PL player and he's strolled into the Championship with ease. That's because he's a class above where he's playing. 

Take Mulgrew for example. He was a good player in the Championship, sometimes he got found out, but in this league he is a great player. That's because he is far better than League 1. He isn't a "League 1 player", he's a level above.

Vardy has always been an anomaly. The whole Vardy example is becoming tiresome - everyone is out for the "next Vardy" but the chances of that happening will be slim because the step up is too much.

Over promoting players is what gets you relegated. We should have learnt this from our relegation last season. We bought poor players and suffered. Buy poor again when we get promoted and we'll only be setting ourselves up for relegation once more.

 

[Dreams of 1995]

3 minutes ago, Biz said:

As well as Vardy, Andre Gray, Gary Hooper, Jordan Rhodes, Rickie Lambert, and Dwight Gayle are recent examples of players who have played/scored at many different levels. That’s without any actual research or googling.

Andre Gray is a Championship player (he's done nothing in the PL), Jordan Rhodes didn't succeed in the PL, Gary Hooper is a former Celtic player so is actually going down a level and Gayle is prolific in the Championship and not in the PL. All of them (save Hooper) were prolific in the lower leagues because they were above that level in terms of talent. When they stepped up they weren't half as good.

Only decent examples would be Lambert and Vardy of players who "stepped up" but, again, they were constantly a league above what they are playing. I am saying that Antonsson is an average player in this league so he isn't going to be a good player in in a league above.

You said plenty of Premier League players have flopped in the Championship but have yet to name any.

[JBiz]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

 

You said plenty of Premier League players have flopped in the Championship but have yet to name any.

Almost every year, a recently relegated “premier league” team almost get relegated from the championship. Many others flop. I had the misfortune to support one.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

Burnley are where they are because they've bought good players and set themselves up well. Antonsson isn't a "good player". Gudmonson, their winger, is.

Either way if you disagree that he chases the ball down at the wrong times and say he doesn't give the ball away a huge amount of times per game you aren't watching him. He does it all the time.

 

 

I think yourself & Biz are the first people I've heard keen to take Antonsson on in the summer, providing we're promoted, for a fee.

So name them then. Name a Premier League player, not a player that has simply played in the PL, that has flopped in a different league. As I have said there is a huge difference. John Terry is a PL player and he's strolled into the Championship with ease. That's because he's a class above where he's playing. 

Take Mulgrew for example. He was a good player in the Championship, sometimes he got found out, but in this league he is a great player. That's because he is far better than League 1. He isn't a "League 1 player", he's a level above.

Vardy has always been an anomaly. The whole Vardy example is becoming tiresome - everyone is out for the "next Vardy" but the chances of that happening will be slim because the step up is too much.

Over promoting players is what gets you relegated. We should have learnt this from our relegation last season. We bought poor players and suffered. Buy poor again when we get promoted and we'll only be setting ourselves up for relegation once more.

 

Your distinction between a "premier league player" and a "player who has played in the premier league", means you will just disagree with anyone I mention. 

As I said, look at any team relegated from the Premiership and you will see players who did well, but struggled in the Championship. 

[JBiz]

4 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Burnley are where they are because they've bought good players and set themselves up well. Antonsson isn't a "good player". Gudmonson, their winger, is.

Either way if you disagree that he chases the ball down at the wrong times and say he doesn't give the ball away a huge amount of times per game you aren't watching him. He does it all the time.

 

 

I think yourself & Biz are the first people I've heard keen to take Antonsson on in the summer, providing we're promoted, for a fee.

So name them then. Name a Premier League player, not a player that has simply played in the PL, that has flopped in a different league. As I have said there is a huge difference. John Terry is a PL player and he's strolled into the Championship with ease. That's because he's a class above where he's playing. 

Take Mulgrew for example. He was a good player in the Championship, sometimes he got found out, but in this league he is a great player. That's because he is far better than League 1. He isn't a "League 1 player", he's a level above.

Vardy has always been an anomaly. The whole Vardy example is becoming tiresome - everyone is out for the "next Vardy" but the chances of that happening will be slim because the step up is too much.

Over promoting players is what gets you relegated. We should have learnt this from our relegation last season. We bought poor players and suffered. Buy poor again when we get promoted and we'll only be setting ourselves up for relegation once more.

 

Burnley have nowhere near the squad or good players of the teams around them, yet they are there. You cannot compare the individual talent at their disposal with other teams. A lot of that comes down to management, but you try buying one of their players for cheap under the proviso they aren’t “premier league standard”.

 A “premier league player” but not simply someone who “played” or “plays” in the premier league? Other than Vardy, does it count if they cost 18m and 4 years ago played for Hinckley and Luton?

This argument that football has set, fixed levels of ability or only certain levels of “talent” is never going to result in an agreement with me Dreams. The “everybody else agrees with me” stuff isn’t going to make a difference either. 

Over promoting players certainly isn’t advisable, but a wafer thin squad built on loans is also quite a stupid idea, so to re-reiterate, my stance on Antonsson isn’t changing! 

[Dreams of 1995]

11 minutes ago, Biz said:

Almost every year, a recently relegated “premier league” team almost get relegated from the championship. Many others flop. I had the misfortune to support one.

And every single year the "Premier League players" get bought by better teams because they are too talented to play at that level. Look at the big clubs that have gone down in recent years and where their players have ended up. They are almost always replaced with worse players and that, usually, leads to a struggle.

Newcastle United are the exception because they can spend 50+million to replace them. Aston Villa tried but failed.

8 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Your distinction between a "premier league player" and a "player who has played in the premier league", means you will just disagree with anyone I mention. 

As I said, look at any team relegated from the Premiership and you will see players who did well, but struggled in the Championship. 

No I won't. I'd say on the large better talented players would tear holes in the Championship as is evidenced by the goal scoring records of players like Murray. He almost always propelled teams to promotion and then flopped when in the PL. That's because he's a Championship player - that's "his level".

You stick PL career players in the Championship and they will be shown to be a class above. What you can't do is throw in an average player from a lower league into a better league and just expect it to work.

But look, me you & Biz are going round in circles here. We won't agree and that's fine. I am firmly of the opinion that a player that isn't considered a good player at this level is going to succeed at a higher level, particularly at the age of 26. A 18-22 year old maybe because he has the potential to improve a lot.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

And every single year the "Premier League players" get bought by better teams because they are too talented to play at that level. Look at the big clubs that have gone down in recent years and where their players have ended up. They are almost always replaced with worse players and that, usually, leads to a struggle.

Newcastle United are the exception because they can spend 50+million to replace them. Aston Villa tried but failed.

No I won't. I'd say on the large better talented players would tear holes in the Championship as is evidenced by the goal scoring records of players like Murray. He almost always propelled teams to promotion and then flopped when in the PL. That's because he's a Championship player - that's "his level".

You stick PL career players in the Championship and they will be shown to be a class above. What you can't do is throw in an average player from a lower league into a better league and just expect it to work.

But look, me you & Biz are going round in circles here. We won't agree and that's fine. I am firmly of the opinion that a player that isn't considered a good player at this level is going to succeed at a higher level, particularly at the age of 26. A 18-22 year old maybe because he has the potential to improve a lot.

Apart from Vardy and practically the entire League 1 winning Southampton team  

[Dreams of 1995]

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Apart from Vardy and practically the entire League 1 winning Southampton team  

One's an anomaly as I have said and the other was a product of a fantastic youth system that has continued to produce players year after year.

Let's not start comparing a youth system that has given us Bale, Oxlade Chamberlain, Ward-Prowse etc with whether or not Antonsson is good enough for a step up