[Archived] Transfers Part 3

[JHRover]

9 minutes ago, J*B said:

Theres 3 players I would be actively trying to sell:

1) Steele - if he's out of contract next year and someone is offering 500k we should bite their hands off. At this level we can get competition for Raya on either a free or a loan.

2) Mulgrew - obviously wants out, a great player at Championship level but very injury prone, on a big wage and getting on. Anything near 1.5m and he would be off.

3) Evans - probably on paper our best central midfielder but was missing in action most of last season when we really needed him, yet was fit enough to play for his country. Take the money and run. 

I'd look to replace them with Christian Burgess (Pompy), Gadzhev (free agent, former Coventry) and any goalkeeper.

I don't think we should be actively looking to sell anyone. Not with the numbers we have. Mulgrew and Evans would be a class apart next season in League One. If their injury records were such a concern then why would anyone, let alone Championship clubs, pay good money for them? Of course if they are keen to leave and the money on offer is substantial then deal with that when it happens but get into the last 2 weeks of the window and it gets very difficult to replace them. That's when the loans arrive and the money disappears.

Steele I think could go with minimal damage done to the squad on the basis Raya should be starting the season as Number 1 with the jersey to lose. We would still then need a replacement for Steele to take us to the required number of keepers for a 46 game season in the event Raya lost form/got injured.

[Dreams of 1995]

28 minutes ago, Dunnfc said:

So what do you value the service given length at NIL? Can we have the wages paid back? Wages are a business "on cost" I.e a continuous fixed outgoing. Transfer fees are used to acquire the services.

Also do you realise fees are spread out mostly in football, they're amortised over the period of a contract length.

Anyone with a business brain may have already pointed that out

You may have a case in point if players were regarded as fixed assets but they're inter tangible to allow them to be amortised against generally this meaning squad values don't really hit the books or lie on balance sheets, just the costs of contracts.

 

One thing I've noticed about RVBlue is his tendency to post with absolute certainty when the truth is far from it. Good post though.

[tomphil]

8 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

Steele's incurred wages would have to be compared to the wages of a replacement keeper, as his roster spot would have been filled one way or another. Ignoring his loan, he's been a full-time Rover for about 2.5 seasons now, so about £1.3M in wages spent. However, if we hadn't signed him, some other keeper presumably would've been signed and paid roughly a similar wage if he was also expected to be our no. 1. So the wages net out, and if we paid £100k for him and receive £500k for him now, there has been a £400k 'profit' (ignoring the actual accounting that dunnfc brings up). Steele may have also been a particularly cheap find by Bowyer as no. 1 keepers tend to go for more than £100k, so you also have to consider what the going transfer rate for a no. 1 keeper was at the time and net Steele's transfer fee against that... The 'value' Steele brought over and above a 'replacement' keeper when he played is a whole other argument itself (and I suspect many will argue he's had negative value in that regard!)

Now, the argument that could be made is whether Steele was needed at all and whether an Eastwood+Raya tandem would have been sufficient, with an Academy lad serving as the no. 3. Raya did spend some time on loan during that period, but in retrospect Eastwood probably deserved a better shot. Assuming Raya was unfit/out on loan, perhaps Eastwood + backup at £8k/week + Academy lad would have been more financially prudent than Steele + Eastwood + Raya. The competence of the backup in the former scenario is obviously vital though given the importance of keeper depth.

I admittedly thought Steele was quite good when he started here (I think some posters are a little too happy to forget some superb games he's had for us), but I'll also admit he was pretty dreadful for most of last year and I'd be happy to see him off for £500k if that report is true.

Having said all that, I absolutely agree that the wages incurred is too often ignored in football circles (I've harped about that before...)

Poor when he first arrived and took a while to settle down the lad couldn't kick the ball to the halfway line with either foot. Very weak however working with keeper coach Keeley and getting regular games he improved no end and started to look like he might make a decent keeper although probably mid Championship at best overall.

Went backwards rapidly once GBs team and Keeley were potted and kind of levelled out at being a slightly physically stronger version of what he was when he first came. From being no 3 at Championship Boro he'll now be number 2 at league 1 Rovers I think that says everything.

Wages aside which are ongoing costs anyway for any player as pointed out get the 500k + plus if poss, it'll probably cover what's been shelled out on him in fees and if it gets redirected it's good business.  He might do ok somewhere else but he's lost his way here for sure.

[Butty]

47 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Well, no disputing that statement. Good news indeed 

Don't be so naive big dog. We've heard this "we don't need too sell" nonsense in the past, I do have more faith in Mowbray saying that and meaning it more than I did Coyle for example last summer, but you never know with our owners if we get a couple of bids in then we could see some exits. We've only rejected a bid or two for Lenihan from Sheff United, who knows what will happen if any of our other players get touted up. It's too early to call this a change in mind-set from Venkys because as it stands we've only rejected bids for ONE player so I'm staying less optimistic until we reject bids for any other players, that's if anyone even wants them! 

[Bigdoggsteel]

10 minutes ago, Butty said:

Don't be so naive big dog. We've heard this "we don't need too sell" nonsense in the past, I do have more faith in Mowbray saying that and meaning it more than I did Coyle for example last summer, but you never know with our owners if we get a couple of bids in then we could see some exits. We've only rejected a bid or two for Lenihan from Sheff United, who knows what will happen if any of our other players get touted up. It's too early to call this a change in mind-set from Venkys because as it stands we've only rejected bids for ONE player so I'm staying less optimistic until we reject bids for any other players, that's if anyone even wants them! 

Did a manager come out and say that here before? Please share quotes of coyle saying this. 

I'm not naive, Im just not paranoid even when people clearly state facts. You should try it sometime 

[chaddyrovers]

Heard Shay Given will be replacing Steele at Rovers. 

From a friend who told me yesterday

[chaddyrovers]

Queens Park Rangers have seen a bid for Blackburn Rovers midfielder Elliott Bennett rejected. #QPR #Rovers https://t.co/FI9HD3oqx6

[RV Blue]

36 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

Steele's incurred wages would have to be compared to the wages of a replacement keeper, as his roster spot would have been filled one way or another. Ignoring his loan, he's been a full-time Rover for about 2.5 seasons now, so about £1.3M in wages spent. However, if we hadn't signed him, some other keeper presumably would've been signed and paid roughly a similar wage if he was also expected to be our no. 1. So the wages net out, and if we paid £100k for him and receive £500k for him now, there has been a £400k 'profit' (ignoring the actual accounting that dunnfc brings up). Steele may have also been a particularly cheap find by Bowyer as no. 1 keepers tend to go for more than £100k, so you also have to consider what the going transfer rate for a no. 1 keeper was at the time and net Steele's transfer fee against that... The 'value' Steele brought over and above a 'replacement' keeper when he played is a whole other argument itself (and I suspect many will argue he's had negative value in that regard!)

Now, the argument that could be made is whether Steele was needed at all and whether an Eastwood+Raya tandem would have been sufficient, with an Academy lad serving as the no. 3. Raya did spend some time on loan during that period, but in retrospect Eastwood probably deserved a better shot. Assuming Raya was unfit/out on loan, perhaps Eastwood + backup at £8k/week + Academy lad would have been more financially prudent than Steele + Eastwood + Raya. The competence of the backup in the former scenario is obviously vital though given the importance of keeper depth.

I admittedly thought Steele was quite good when he started here (I think some posters are a little too happy to forget some superb games he's had for us), but I'll also admit he was pretty dreadful for most of last year and I'd be happy to see him off for £500k if that report is true.

Having said all that, I absolutely agree that the wages incurred is too often ignored in football circles (I've harped about that before...)

We had two better keepers than Steele when he arrived, so no replacement keeper would have been needed. To say a backup Championship keeper would be on 8k per week is quite frankly nonsense, and I'm sure you know it. If Eastwood was no. 1 and Raya was no. 2, we would probably have needed another u21 keeper on around £500 per week. I would dispute you saying Steele played well for a time, as I think he has been dreadful since he arrived, and even Bowyer must have thought the same when he dropped him for Raya at the start of the 15/16 season. The fact remains that we have spent £1.1m on a poor keeper that we could have done without.

[RV Blue]

1 hour ago, Dunnfc said:

So what do you value the service given length at NIL? Can we have the wages paid back? Wages are a business "on cost" I.e a continuous fixed outgoing. Transfer fees are used to acquire the services.

Also do you realise fees are spread out mostly in football, they're amortised over the period of a contract length.

Anyone with a business brain may have already pointed that out

You may have a case in point if players were regarded as fixed assets but they're inter tangible to allow them to be amortised against generally this meaning squad values don't really hit the books or lie on balance sheets, just the costs of contracts.

And this sums up why accountants shouldn't run companies. We've paid £1.1m for a player we simply could have done without, there is no way in which you can spin it to make it seem like good business, it wasn't good business.

[RV Blue]

7 hours ago, J*B said:

Theres 3 players I would be actively trying to sell:

1) Steele - if he's out of contract next year and someone is offering 500k we should bite their hands off. At this level we can get competition for Raya on either a free or a loan.

2) Mulgrew - obviously wants out, a great player at Championship level but very injury prone, on a big wage and getting on. Anything near 1.5m and he would be off.

3) Evans - probably on paper our best central midfielder but was missing in action most of last season when we really needed him, yet was fit enough to play for his country. Take the money and run. 

I'd look to replace them with Christian Burgess (Pompy), Gadzhev (free agent, former Coventry) and any goalkeeper.

Didn't you hear that you aren't allowed to speculate or assume anything on this board!!1 

I wonder if 47er will be on here trying to start an argument with you?

[Butty]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Did a manager come out and say that here before? Please share quotes of coyle saying this. 

I'm not naive, Im just not paranoid even when people clearly state facts. You should try it sometime 

Wasn't having a dig mate, was just saying you've got too be wary with our owners. We saw Coyle last summer about Hanley for example give it the whole we don't want too lose him but if a club bids enough he'll be going rubbish. But like I said I have a lot more faith in Mowbray and I think he's a genuine and honest guy. It's not him I'm worried about it's our bloody owners, I don't think think they know themselves what they are going too do from one day to the next. This transfer window has been good so far but I'll be bloody glad when it's finished  

[davulsukur]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Queens Park Rangers have seen a bid for Blackburn Rovers midfielder Elliott Bennett rejected. #QPR #Rovers https://t.co/FI9HD3oqx6

I hope we keep on rejecting them. I like Bennett, I think he will be incredibly useful this season.

[Butty]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Heard Shay Given will be replacing Steele at Rovers. 

From a friend who told me yesterday

Raya should learn a hell of a lot from him and I think it would be good for the squad too have someone with his experience in and around it. Solid enough back-up for Raya as well, give him a year and then line him up for a GK coach role maybe. 

[RV Blue]

7 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Queens Park Rangers have seen a bid for Blackburn Rovers midfielder Elliott Bennett rejected. #QPR #Rovers https://t.co/FI9HD3oqx6

I would let him go unless an absolutely ridiculous bid came in, and if I was Mowbray I would be trying to get him to sign a new contract.

[RV Blue]

12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Heard Shay Given will be replacing Steele at Rovers. 

From a friend who told me yesterday

Given would be a perfect backup to Raya imo.

[G Somerset Rover]

Call me naive but it looks like Bennett is one of the few who is truly committed to us. We should not be selling him if we have any aspirations of promotion. 

[Glosrover]

2 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/15428834._We_don___t_have_to_sell____Tony_Mowbray_says_Rovers_will_stand_strong_in_the_face_of_interest_in_their_key_players/?ref=mac

"Rovers aren’t encouraging any further bids for their under contract players"

 

They don't need to - that's the job of the Lancashire Telegraph........

[RoverCanada]

23 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

We had two better keepers than Steele when he arrived, so no replacement keeper would have been needed. To say a backup Championship keeper would be on 8k per week is quite frankly nonsense, and I'm sure you know it. If Eastwood was no. 1 and Raya was no. 2, we would probably have needed another u21 keeper on around £500 per week. I would dispute you saying Steele played well for a time, as I think he has been dreadful since he arrived, and even Bowyer must have thought the same when he dropped him for Raya at the start of the 15/16 season. The fact remains that we have spent £1.1m on a poor keeper that we could have done without.

'Backup' was perhaps a mistype, as you would've needed a pretty dependable 1B option if you were going with Eastwood as the no. 1. The average Championship wage is over £10k/week, so I don't think £8k/week was too ridiculous a number to propose, but we're making up numbers anyway so I'm a bit confused by your seemingly aggressive tone haha

Eastwood's only had 13 Championship games under his belt and this was a few years ago before his solid year at L1 with Oxford. He surely wasn't as good then as he appears to be now. So while I portrayed Eastwood + rotational option (happy?) + u23 as a scenario, it hardly looks like a sure thing to me. Hence the 'backup/rotation' option would likely need to be a slightly pricier option. Certainly a point of debate though, and you seem oddly antagonistic when I introduced an argument in favour of your own opinion haha

Raya looked solid at the end of last year, but he was a bit of a deer in the headlights a few years ago. He was at Southport for 19 games in 2014/15 and I think his development was all the better for it.

I'm not too keen to get into a pissing match over Steele's actual performance (given your tone I can hardly imagine a world where you'd agree that he did have a decent run of games here at one point haha), and I've already acknowledged he was pretty bad last year, so I'll leave it here.

[Butty]

Just now, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Call me naive but it looks like Bennett is one of the few who is truly committed to us. We should not be selling him if we have any aspirations of promotion. 

I think out of all our players that have been linked with clubs I'd least like too lose Bennett. The way he conducts himself I wouldn't mind if he was captain next season. He's a good player and he knows where the back of the net is, he will be huge for us next season. You need goals throughout the team and he could easily get 10 from midfield next season. 

[RV Blue]

5 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

'Backup' was perhaps a mistype, as you would've needed a pretty dependable 1B option if you were going with Eastwood as the no. 1. The average Championship wage is over £10k/week, so I don't think £8k/week was too ridiculous a number to propose, but we're making up numbers anyway so I'm a bit confused by your seemingly aggressive tone haha

Eastwood's only had 13 Championship games under his belt and this was a few years ago before his solid year at L1 with Oxford. He surely wasn't as good then as he appears to be now. So while I portrayed Eastwood + rotational option (happy?) + u23 as a scenario, it hardly looks like a sure thing to me. Hence the 'backup/rotation' option would likely need to be a slightly pricier option. Certainly a point of debate though, and you seem oddly antagonistic when I introduced an argument in favour of your own opinion haha

Raya looked solid at the end of last year, but he was a bit of a deer in the headlights a few years ago. He was at Southport for 19 games in 2014/15 and I think his development was all the better for it.

I'm not too keen to get into a pissing match over Steele's actual performance (given your tone I can hardly imagine a world where you'd agree that he did have a decent run of games here at one point haha), and I've already acknowledged he was pretty bad last year, so I'll leave it here.

We also still had Robbo that season so he's your backup to Eastwood! I honestly don't think Steele was ever needed or has ever been needed here and it's wrong to say we've made a profit on him.

[cesus]

25 minutes ago, davulsukur said:

I hope we keep on rejecting them. I like Bennett, I think he will be incredibly useful this season.

Agreed, I think we would have gained a few more points last season had he played more when available. His energy and goal scoring from midfield was very much needed as we had none of either otherwise.

[Bigdoggsteel]

32 minutes ago, Butty said:

Wasn't having a dig mate, was just saying you've got too be wary with our owners. We saw Coyle last summer about Hanley for example give it the whole we don't want too lose him but if a club bids enough he'll be going rubbish. But like I said I have a lot more faith in Mowbray and I think he's a genuine and honest guy. It's not him I'm worried about it's our bloody owners, I don't think think they know themselves what they are going too do from one day to the next. This transfer window has been good so far but I'll be bloody glad when it's finished  

I know but I'm touchy because I want this to be a good window

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

I would let him go unless an absolutely ridiculous bid came in, and if I was Mowbray I would be trying to get him to sign a new contract.

Definitely. He has shown he can do it in the Championship. He is great with the fans too, a real fan favourite. No brainer to offer him a new deal now imo

[K-Hod]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I know but I'm touchy because I want this to be a good window

 

I think we'd all like a quality window and not to lose any of our better players!!

Re Bennett, I'd just like to echo the sentiments above. The guy is a model pro who led by example last season and is one of the best players at the club. 

We should be moving heaven and earth to keep him here as far as I'm concerned.

[JHRover]

Watching Bennett from behind the dugout at York last week. When the players were walking off at half time and the others were getting ready to warm up he was going to every player, shaking hands with them, putting his arm around them, talking to them. Struck me then that he seems to be extremely professional and always ready to support/help his team-mates. Important.