[Archived] Rovers v Doncaster Rovers

[JHRover]

Lose at Bradford and that's automatic promotion gone before we even reach September. So much for strolling to the league title. I'm afraid this manager, these players and this club simply cannot recover a 9 point deficit even over 43 games.

[rigger]

21 minutes ago, JHRover said:

these players and this club simply cannot recover a 9 point deficit even over 43 games.

Yes it can, but it shouldn't have to!

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, booth said:

"what proof?"

And there you go Chaddy, you're like a dog with a bone. What proof? What proof it clearly isn't working? Look at the table, look at the way we are playing. The Southend result looks even more depressing considering their 5-0 drubbing yesterday.

Your argument amounts to... Three other teams have done well with it so we could win the league. How many teams didn't do well with it? How many teams playing 4-4-2 and won the league? How many teams with a poor manager have won the league? Have you learned nothing over the past 7 years? Forgive me for being pessimistic when previous optimism has been punished time after time.

If we were playing well and unlucky not to get the points I'd be inclined to agree that this approach needs to be given time but Mowbray has clearly got it very wrong and needs to sort it out quickly. We're in League 1 and need to be going for teams and letting the opposition try and deal with us, it appears Mowbray is setting us up to try and nullify the opposition rather than playing as the league favourites and exerting our supposed superiority. Oppo teams now know we have a brittle defence and very little attacking threat with a manager who invites pressure. It is not working.

the last 3 teams to win this league has played that formation. that is a Fact!

Havent I said since yesterday that Mowbray needs to sort it quickly and not have us over playing and playing a quick tempo style

45 minutes ago, Shrimper said:

I apologised to Chaddyrovers for that. It wasn't meant in a venomous way, at all, and on reflection, it was clearly unnecessary. 

I enjoy our 'Football debate' and that's what I am here to discuss football, not personal digs.

very happy to carry on our football discussion

15 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Chaddy...

Why has Mowbray signed so many players, yet left our 2 problem positions, having only a left back available who isnt even League 1 standard, and also centre back, are still as bad as at the start of the summer?

Didn't you villify Coyle and rightly so for leaving our main striker looking unfit and de-motivated at the start of last season?

What sort of idiot would sign 3 attacking midfielders who like to run at players, added to Conway, Bennett and Feeney who we already had, then play a 32 year old central midfield practically as a winger and leave him out to dry?

What sort of idiot would sign half a squad of players and keep playing people out of position?

Doesn't it worry you that he keeps changing formation, and is now claiming that the formation has nothing to do with losing? Wouldn't you have called Coyle out for talking so much @#/??

Mowbray has no excuses, he got all his signings in early on, unlike Coyle, he keeps mouthing off about the brilliant team spirit, and how many points and goals we need, at the moment he looks all mouth. Lose at Bradford and he might already need to look over his shoulder.

Firstly, Williams was part of the Bristol City promotion winning squad that won this 3 seasons ago playing the left wing position. But Like I said yesterday, I expect(hope) that Jack Doyle will be our first choice left back/wing back by end of the current season. He has great potential and we need to develop that aswell.

on the centre back, Mowbray is reported looking for once. it looks like a loan deal that one so expect it from Premier league or championship club. I would go for Jack Baldwin from Peterborough but I don't know how much that would cost tbh and whether Mowbray has funds for that.

I was unhappy with Coyle not signing a keeper or right back last season.

Already commented on yesterday and the players and formation used. wasn't impressed at all. I agree on not playing Whittingham on the wing or attacking role when we got the talent we have got. I said how I would play next game and who I would play behind our main striker which would be Samuel.   

I agree that we need a plan A and plan B but with the players we got he has to make a choice on how he wants us to play and stick to that as Plan A and have back up in case we need plan B.

 

7 minutes ago, broadsword said:

Chaddyrovers has managed to wind up just about everyone on here over the years. I really wouldn't worry about it

but lets ignore all others posters who do tho?

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Firstly, Williams was part of the Bristol City promotion winning squad that won this 3 seasons ago playing the left wing position. But Like I said yesterday, I expect(hope) that Jack Doyle will be our first choice left back/wing back by end of the current season. He has great potential and we need to develop that aswell.

on the centre back, Mowbray is reported looking for once. it looks like a loan deal that one so expect it from Premier league or championship club. I would go for Jack Baldwin from Peterborough but I don't know how much that would cost tbh and whether Mowbray has funds for that.

I was unhappy with Coyle not signing a keeper or right back last season.

Already commented on yesterday and the players and formation used. wasn't impressed at all. I agree on not playing Whittingham on the wing or attacking role when we got the talent we have got. I said how I would play next game and who I would play behind our main striker which would be Samuel.   

I agree that we need a plan A and plan B but with the players we got he has to make a choice on how he wants us to play and stick to that as Plan A and have back up in case we need plan B.

I think he played left centre back for Bristol City, but regardless, you've seen him for a season, you can clearly see he is a very poor footballer, and certainly not a wing back in a million years.

Stop dodging questions by blaming Coyle, do you not think it is an inefficient use of our budget to sign Samuel, Dack, Chapman AND Gladwin, all to sit on the bench, baring in mind hes got almost a fully fit squad and doesn't feel any of them are good enough for it yesterday, yet you are then relying on a left back whose never made his league debut to come in and fill a void elsewhere? 

Don't you agree that Mowbray seemingly doesn't have a plan A and plan B; its as if he is just throwing 11 players out there and hoping something works. If he wants to have 3 at the back as his first choice, then why has he signed so many attacking midfielders, and no centre backs, leaving us playing a washed up Elliott Ward and Nyambe out of position, a player who unless he is amply protected in an organised team, looks well out his depth?

His main signing was a number 10 who plays off a striker, yet yesterday there wasn't any room for him. Either Mowbray has his recruitment all wrong, or someone is buying the players for him over his head...

[punerover]

Poor Poor Poor.....The goals conceded were awful. TM better do a Chelsea soon .. else he should go. A win in the league and a draw against Burnley (a win is preferable but I am being realistically optimist) would give him some breathing space. He has nothing to complain about in terms of signings. This formation only works if you have players who are comfortable in possession or play one touch quick passing football. This includes defenders since we are trying to play from the back.

[blueboy3333]

35 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Firstly, Williams was part of the Bristol City promotion winning squad that won this 3 seasons ago playing the left wing position.

No he wasn't, he played the left of three Centre-Halves. It was Joe Bryan who was the wing-back, good pace, decent dribbler and with a good cross on him, everything Williams isn't.

[harryhealless1928]

The team were very,very poor yesterday like a lot of performances last season tbh...........but the worst performer of the lot wasnt even Ward and his defending(?)if you call it that.

No the worst of the lot was Mowbray who picked a team that didnt make sense (with two slow full-backs as "wing-backs",three defensive midfielders and an isolated centre-forward,only three at the back,the real fire power and drive on the bench etc etc).

Most of the supporters had worked that out as soon as team sheet announced.

All such a shame with a decent crowd really,and high expectations.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, harryhealless1928 said:

No the worst of the lot was Mowbray who picked a team that didnt make sense (with two slow full-backs as "wing-backs",three defensive midfielders and an isolated centre-forward,only three at the back,the real fire power and drive on the bench etc etc).

It was one of those games that unless you were there it is very hard to appreciate just how bad we were, and how badly Mowbray got it wrong. If he couldn't see it was wrong then I would question his understanding of the game.

[Blueandwhitemike]

 

Did Williams really play left wing back for Bristol City?  Seems unlikely having watched him play, he's always looked like a left sided centre back kind of player to me.  I think it's harsh to blame him for playing so poorly when, to me and others, it's obvious he shouldn't be playing there.

There are lots of points about the game yesterday and having read and thought about it I still think Mowbray is mostly to blame.  Whilst Neal is correct in all he says about the Vs I think looking at games and blaming them almost excuses TM and that is nonsense, this squad should be clearly good enough to do a lot better.

On the formation, we didn't play three defensive midfielders, looking at the line up I thought TM thought Evans could play attacking midfield but it turned out he thought the almost 33 year old Peter Whittingham could do it, maybe when he was younger he had played behind the striker but he was completely ineffective.  Neither he nor Bennett were wide, PW especially seemed to avoid the wings and so width was supposed to come from Caddis and Williams, neither of whom did a good job.

Playing three at the back can work if the wing backs are wing backs and can do the job, it can allow you to pay 2 up front and one behind (Dack or Bennett could do that) and can let you play on the front foot with a high press.  Tony Mowbray's 3-4-2-1 didn't have us doing any of that.  The whole team seems to sit back and play too deep and as mentioned many times the wing backs were unsuitable to the role.  Graham was isolated up front on his own and it is demoralizing to try and close down defenders on your own, I'm sure he could have worked harder but I don't put it all on him.

Even if TM was going to play that system we have several player better suited than Whittingham but he seemed determined to fit in Evans Smallwood and Whittingham to the detriment of the team.

This may sound silly considering the score but the defense was not what worried me most yesterday.  In the first half, despite a couple of moments, Doncaster didn't look like scoring, what worried me more was that we were so poor.  I think Pedro said we were passing well but to me we were just okay, far too slow and too little movement, and this left us with few options.  Disappointingly in his interview it sounds like Mowbray thought because we had one break away we did well in the first half, we didn't at all.

In the second half Ward touched it away from himself after it hit his standing foot and Marquis did well to score.  In my opinion Mowbray confounded his mistake by poor substitutions putting on Gladwin (who looked decent going forward) for Williams and we lost shape by not readjusting the formation better.  Even my girlfriend, who would confess to knowing little about football, was asking why we have so few at the back and kept letting them counter us dangerously.  

The three who came on did all look lively and if there was anything encouraging about yesterday it was Samuel and Dack running and trying to create and Gladwin having a couple of good efforts on goal.

Although I might be letting the players off a little easy (the senior ones e.g. Whittingham should be able to take responsibility) the manager didn't give them a platform to perform.

I think we have a squad that can get promoted (I think we will add one or two still) there are good players for this level, and I don't believe they don't care (just look at Mulgrew trying to grab the ball as quick as he can after the penalty) but I'm having increasing doubts as to whether we have the manager.

 

p.s.  regards Raya, I think he's far better than Jake Kean and if he cuts out his mistakes he can go to the top, but I think GB and TM have both encouraged him to be a 'footballing goalkeeper' (again we aren't Barca or Man City with Pep) and he overplays which leads to more mistakes, he could have left that ball to Nyambe yesterday or gotten rid instead of trying to play a cushioned header to a teammate.  If he keeps it simple I'm more than happy for him to continue.

 

[tomphil]

38 minutes ago, harryhealless1928 said:

The team were very,very poor yesterday like a lot of performances last season tbh...........but the worst performer of the lot wasnt even Ward and his defending(?)if you call it that.

No the worst of the lot was Mowbray who picked a team that didnt make sense (with two slow full-backs as "wing-backs",three defensive midfielders and an isolated centre-forward,only three at the back,the real fire power and drive on the bench etc etc).

Most of the supporters had worked that out as soon as team sheet announced.

All such a shame with a decent crowd really,and high expectations.

I like the look of Caddis I think he's still enough about him to be a solid right back in this league but what he was asked yesterday was plain stupid really given the fact he's still trying to get fit. He was trying to do the job but was blowing after his first few runs up field and just didn't have any pace to get past his man plus what is the point of belting high balls in when you have no big man to aim for ?

The whole naivety of it was embarrassing to watch and I felt sorry for Nyambe he didn't know whether he should come or stay everytime they came down that side.

As Mark Atkins put it on twitter 'shambles'

Get Caddis right back in a four and bite the bullet with Nyambe it won't do any harm and Caddis probably won't last ful 90 anyway yet, leave Whittingham on the bench.

[AAK]

It's oreyt saying, it's only two games, give them time etc. I would usually be all for that, however the performances have been so, so poor it's ridiculous, really. Southend could easily have done us 4 or 5 - 1, Doncaster could easily have done us 5 or 6 - 1 and that's being kind to Rovers. It's been nothin short of diabolical. 

[harryhealless1928]

The warning signs were there in the pre-season friendly when Carlisle scored 3,and it could so easily have been 6.

What is really surprising about all this,as Mowbray is an ex-defender,is that he doesnt seem to realise we cant defend,even at 3rd Division level. We have 10 signings come in.Not one central-defender signed. If Lenihan goes to Sheffield United,we will need at least one more central defender and a sensible defensive system,something more basic and simple. Like 4 at the back would help.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

What we would do for a super Atko now!

[Waggy76]

1 minute ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

What we would do for a super Atko now!

And a Tony Parkes !

[broadsword]

You have to think that this is going non-league. 

We are very long odds to go down this year. You have to wonder if someone has had a whacking great bet on that. 

We'll end up doing a quiet death in the conference

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I think he played left centre back for Bristol City, but regardless, you've seen him for a season, you can clearly see he is a very poor footballer, and certainly not a wing back in a million years.

Stop dodging questions by blaming Coyle, do you not think it is an inefficient use of our budget to sign Samuel, Dack, Chapman AND Gladwin, all to sit on the bench, baring in mind hes got almost a fully fit squad and doesn't feel any of them are good enough for it yesterday, yet you are then relying on a left back whose never made his league debut to come in and fill a void elsewhere? 

Don't you agree that Mowbray seemingly doesn't have a plan A and plan B; its as if he is just throwing 11 players out there and hoping something works. If he wants to have 3 at the back as his first choice, then why has he signed so many attacking midfielders, and no centre backs, leaving us playing a washed up Elliott Ward and Nyambe out of position, a player who unless he is amply protected in an organised team, looks well out his depth?

His main signing was a number 10 who plays off a striker, yet yesterday there wasn't any room for him. Either Mowbray has his recruitment all wrong, or someone is buying the players for him over his head...

I said last summer Coyle did failed to sign 2 positions we should have sign players for. but lets move on.

I feel that and agree with the posters that have said this that Mowbray is trying to over complicated the style and formation of the team. Our tempo is far too slow if we are trying to play a passing style of play. I'm not sure if plan A is a 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-2-1 and I don't think Mowbray knows at the minute to be honest. That's a big worry.

Personally its time to drop the 3 at the back go for 4-2-3-1 and with the Team selection I posted yesterday which include the 4 signings you mention.

On Jack Doyle, I felt last season he was ready to be the back up to a first choice left back but Coyle signed Hendrie who was back up and didn't allow Doyle to develop like he should have done. Same situation happened with Mahoney when Coyle signed Feeney and Samuelsen last summer.

Mowbray is running the show and nobody is buying the players for him Imo

1 hour ago, blueboy3333 said:

No he wasn't, he played the left of three Centre-Halves. It was Joe Bryan who was the wing-back, good pace, decent dribbler and with a good cross on him, everything Williams isn't.

fair enough. hold me hand up.

[Speedie's Gonna Get Ya]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

I like the look of Caddis I think he's still enough about him to be a solid right back in this league but what he was asked yesterday was plain stupid really given the fact he's still trying to get fit. He was trying to do the job but was blowing after his first few runs up field and just didn't have any pace to get past his man plus what is the point of belting high balls in when you have no big man to aim for ?

The whole naivety of it was embarrassing to watch and I felt sorry for Nyambe he didn't know whether he should come or stay everytime they came down that side.

As Mark Atkins put it on twitter 'shambles'

Get Caddis right back in a four and bite the bullet with Nyambe it won't do any harm and Caddis probably won't last ful 90 anyway yet, leave Whittingham on the bench.

Been a lifelong Rover and various lengthy stints as a ST holder & now back in BB End with my lad. My first true memories of watching Rovers was Howard Kendall's first season.

Yesterday was frustrating to say the least! Not taken the time to read the entire thread but agree with much of the main sentiment.

Regarding formation, I think Mowbray is expecting too much of a team that hasn't even had time to gel yet, by tinkering and over complicating things. That can surely only come from playing in a consistent formation first of all?

It would be interesting to see how we perform under the default bread and butter 4-4-2 and the extent to which this accelerates the gelling of the players.

There are numerous variables at play; defintely room to be concerned and it is still early days.

Other observations from yesterday's game: 

- the players are yet to get to grips with League One refs; the players need to get used to different refereeing standards. Too often it seemed they felt they didn't get the rub of the green and weren't awarded decisions that they'd expect in the Championship;

- the attacking calibre on the bench seemed negative; but to what extent was Mowbray (rightly or wrongly) hoping he could get a result with his starting eleven in order to protect injury 'niggles' early on in the season. An expensive, but perhaps necessary, lesson for him to learn about his squad early on in the season?

- the players seem constrained rather than 'freed up' by the need to pass the ball around, particularly in defence;

- Raya and the CB's need to have the confidence to play the ball out AND put there boot through the ball when necesssry; its decision making;

- Dack, Samuel, Gladwin all showed greater hunger and intent when they came on; Samuel doesn't look the finished article but he made things happen and gave their defence much more to do. Impact substitutions for sure but if that demonstrates their hunger and desire that's what we need. Too many times yesterday Doncaster were first to the ball, primarily because they had more steely determination.

- if we persist with a back 3 with a fully fit squad, should the combination be Wharton - Mulgrew - Lenihan; very different feel to Mulgrew - Ward - Nyambe. Can only recall Mulgrew carrying the ball out of defence once with any effect; surely something the system (and with a player of his ability) allows for?

- where is the leadership in the team and in particular in midfield; 

- what we saw was highly frustrating, we as supporters are going to have to be prepared to be patient during games, due to how our opponents will approach playing 'the big fish', but the level of invention and commitment from the team meant that on this occasion the chant of "your not fit to wear the shirt" was fair and hopefully serve as a timely kick up the backside for them all.

Here's hoping.

[broadsword]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

 

but lets ignore all others posters who do tho?

Far from it, but don't let me interfere with your sense of victimhood 

[harryhealless1928]

I have a friend who sometimes watches Accrington Stanley play at home. When I described yesterdays calamitous defending,he said "That happens all the time in our League!"

After he had seen some video highlights for the match he said " Your players look like Division 3 players. Some have a bit of quality,but their fitness levels arent that great."

He could have added their sense of commitment doesnt look that great either.

 

[Hasta]

2 hours ago, punerover said:

Poor Poor Poor.....The goals conceded were awful. TM better do a Chelsea soon .. else he should go. A win in the league and a draw against Burnley (a win is preferable but I am being realistically optimist) would give him some breathing space. He has nothing to complain about in terms of signings. This formation only works if you have players who are comfortable in possession or play one touch quick passing football. This includes defenders since we are trying to play from the back.

As it goes to penalties, a draw is only good against Burnley if we win the shootout.

 

[roversfan99]

30 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I said last summer Coyle did failed to sign 2 positions we should have sign players for. but lets move on.

I feel that and agree with the posters that have said this that Mowbray is trying to over complicated the style and formation of the team. Our tempo is far too slow if we are trying to play a passing style of play. I'm not sure if plan A is a 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-2-1 and I don't think Mowbray knows at the minute to be honest. That's a big worry.

Personally its time to drop the 3 at the back go for 4-2-3-1 and with the Team selection I posted yesterday which include the 4 signings you mention.

On Jack Doyle, I felt last season he was ready to be the back up to a first choice left back but Coyle signed Hendrie who was back up and didn't allow Doyle to develop like he should have done. Same situation happened with Mahoney when Coyle signed Feeney and Samuelsen last summer.

Mowbray is running the show and nobody is buying the players for him Imo

fair enough. hold me hand up.

In regards to Doyle, what evidence do you have that he is ready to become our main left back? He's played about 15 minutes in the first team. And even if he is, surely you agree that we need a player that we can rely on to do that role, as even if he is ready you can't expect someone with no prior experience to just come in and play the whole season.

You are back to blaming Coyle again.

And if you are of the assumption that Mowbray has total control of recruitment, then surely you'd agree that his business has been massively flawed this summer, especially based on the formations he has played, baring in mind the massive voids we have at left and centre back?

[RV Blue]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

In regards to Doyle, what evidence do you have that he is ready to become our main left back?

He can't be worse than Williams.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

In regards to Doyle, what evidence do you have that he is ready to become our main left back? He's played about 15 minutes in the first team. And even if he is, surely you agree that we need a player that we can rely on to do that role, as even if he is ready you can't expect someone with no prior experience to just come in and play the whole season.

You are back to blaming Coyle again.

And if you are of the assumption that Mowbray has total control of recruitment, then surely you'd agree that his business has been massively flawed this summer, especially based on the formations he has played, baring in mind the massive voids we have at left and centre back?

Forget Coyle. its gone. move on.

Mowbray has had 4 main centre backs at the club so he would have thought we had enough, Plus Williams and Nyambe can play there as part of a 3 man defence. But like I said its time to drop the 3-4-2-1 formation now unless he signed a proper left wing back. But I would stick to 4-2-3-1 formation now as Plan A. could Williams not play centre back and we look to sign a left back with Doyle staying a back up.

I've been impressed by Doyle for the under 23's. His positional, technical good, not scared of a tackle either and get forward. Plenty of potential there and will be a good left back here if develop right.

Recruitment hasn't been flawed as we signed some good players, now we need to fit into a team and formation. Anyway what do you think of my team I posted yesterday?

 

[davulsukur]

Just watched the highlights.

Embarrassing stuff all round. 

[Blue blood]

8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Forget Coyle. its gone. move on.

Mowbray has had 4 main centre backs at the club so he would have thought we had enough, Plus Williams and Nyambe can play there as part of a 3 man defence. But like I said its time to drop the 3-4-2-1 formation now unless he signed a proper left wing back. But I would stick to 4-2-3-1 formation now as Plan A. could Williams not play centre back and we look to sign a left back with Doyle staying a back up.

I've been impressed by Doyle for the under 23's. His positional, technical good, not scared of a tackle either and get forward. Plenty of potential there and will be a good left back here if develop right.

Recruitment hasn't been flawed as we signed some good players, now we need to fit into a team and formation. Anyway what do you think of my team I posted yesterday?

 

Not good arguments chaddy Imo at all.

Firstly you say we've got enough cbs and list nayambe and Williams as back up being able to play there. THEY CAN'T IF THEY'RE FILLING THE WING BACK ROLES THOUGH CAN THEY? Not even Messi can play 2 positions at once.

So that leaves us 4 cbs - 2 VERY injury prone - for 3 positions. Alternatively we class both guys as cb we've not enough wing backs. Either way we're short somewhere.

As for the rest of recruitment Caddis seems a solid rb but not a wing back at all. So why recruit him if we wanted wing backs? On that point if Williams is the standard for a wing back why the hell didn't we get a left wing back to boot. One that can actually attack.

Likewise Whittingham. Where does he fit in. I like your 4-2-3-1 formation but there's no place for him in it. Doesn't do the dirty work of the 2 nor have the mobility for the 3. Or in yesterday's formation. Clearly as one of the front 2 behind Graham he hadn't the movement to play the role. Horses for courses but we've brought donkeys for these roles.

As for Ward not being able to play in a 4 man defence. Any defender unable to do that should give up the game. It's like a driver saying they don't do main roads.

Annoying thing is I think for a 4-4-2 or even 4-2-3-1 we've got a good squad. Problem is we're going back to square pegs in round holes. Which when you've spent around £1.5 million and have brought in 10 players is a criminal position to be in.