[Archived] Bradford City V Rovers

[JBiz]

28 minutes ago, JHRover said:

If we get beat again expect the propaganda machine to go into overdrive about what a tough ask it is to go to Bradford, about how our poor lambs struggled against them. How they haven't lost for however long at home so we couldn't expect a win (except they don't usually play teams that cost what ours has cost), how 'not many teams will go to Bradford and get a result', a bit like how Southend were supposed to be the next Barcelona until they lost at home to Newport and were thrashed at Rotherham.

Like last season owing to being on the back foot from the start of the season the reality is we are going to have to pull off big wins this season if we have any intentions of promotion. Hailing a heroic defeat/draw at Bradford won't be good enough.

If we manage to get a point it will be heralded as a great result and getting up and running, even though we'll probably be 8 points off the top already.

JHR, I'm starting to worry about you pal. I don't remember you specialising in such masochistic drivel

1. Nobody is giving this lot excuses, not the media or the fans. I haven't seen one single post suggesting they expected this, and I haven't seen one excuse laden article or interview - it's all been pretty stark.

2. Find me the quote, person, article, journalist et al who compared Southend to Barcelona, and I'll gladly apologise, analogy or not - that is just pure nonsense.

[tomphil]

No propaganda will cover anything like last weekend i'm afraid. We may lose but it's the manner as a few have said we are looking for a performance from both players and manager.

Get stuffed again and we still remain one of the strongest squads in the league but possibly with one of the weakest coaching set ups and still certainly the worst at boardroom and ownership level, the main reason we are where we are.

Like I said before too many voids remain in the background at Rovers to ever provide the right platform to turn out a well oiled machine on the pitch.

[Manchester Blue]

I don't honestly understand how you'd define a trip to Bradford as anything other than a tough ask, that's not spin it's fact.  They didn't lose all last season as has been said so why would we expect to roll them over, given how we've played even more so.  Personally I'm going hoping for a far improved showing, and the belief we can win if we play like we can, certainly not expecting a walkover though.

[broadsword]

Torn between a loss, an embarrassibg loss, and an utter shoeing.

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, Manchester Blue said:

I don't honestly understand how you'd define a trip to Bradford as anything other than a tough ask, that's not spin it's fact.  They didn't lose all last season as has been said so why would we expect to roll them over, given how we've played even more so.  Personally I'm going hoping for a far improved showing, and the belief we can win if we play like we can, certainly not expecting a walkover though.

Nobody expects them to roll over and nobody expects any away game to be easy. That doesn't mean we should have to suffer a tidal wave of drivel if we get beat about what a good side they are and how it is mission impossible going there. Ultimately its 11 v 11 and our 11 are supposed to be vastly superior to their Bradford counterparts in quality, cost and suitability for a promotion push, allegedly.

We had bits of it after getting done at Southend where people on twitter and some on here were talking about what a decent outfit Southend are, how there's no shame getting beat there because they nearly got in the top 6 last season and have one or two players people have heard of.

If you need/want to win the league or get in the top 2 then you need to be able to go away from home to the 'stronger' sides like Bradford and beat them. These sort of games and results are what separate the automatic promotion teams from the rest. No use in harking on about their strong home form and how good they are. We have to be better. If we'd have won our 1st two games then maybe a draw would be a decent result, but with 2 defeats it won't be.

[AggyBlue]

I'm prepared for another over cautious approach from the manager, giving the initiative to the Bantams.

At least it's not a long trip home to stew on another defeat.

 

[DE.]

Southend result did see some nonsense posted as excuses, but as it was the first game of the season you can let that slide. After Doncaster even a lot of the rainbow and sunshine crew were wallowing in the darkest pits of doom with the rest of us. 

We've had such a poor start to the season in terms of results AND performances that anything less than a win at Bradford is now not good enough. Simple as that for me. 

[Manchester Blue]

12 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Nobody expects them to roll over and nobody expects any away game to be easy. That doesn't mean we should have to suffer a tidal wave of drivel if we get beat about what a good side they are and how it is mission impossible going there. Ultimately its 11 v 11 and our 11 are supposed to be vastly superior to their Bradford counterparts in quality, cost and suitability for a promotion push, allegedly.

We had bits of it after getting done at Southend where people on twitter and some on here were talking about what a decent outfit Southend are, how there's no shame getting beat there because they nearly got in the top 6 last season and have one or two players people have heard of.

If you need/want to win the league or get in the top 2 then you need to be able to go away from home to the 'stronger' sides like Bradford and beat them. These sort of games and results are what separate the automatic promotion teams from the rest. No use in harking on about their strong home form and how good they are. We have to be better. If we'd have won our 1st two games then maybe a draw would be a decent result, but with 2 defeats it won't be.

Don't disagree with much of what you say, however it sometimes seems people don't want to accept realistic points made, which are far from being overly optimistic etc just simple realty.  We should be going into every game with the aim of winning, certainly in this league, I accept Mowbray has set us up too cautiously and probably will again, but that doesn't change the facts.  You don't have to beat Bradford but obviously it helps.  Clearly nobody beat them last season but Sheff U went up comfortably, despite not winning any of their first five, and Bolton went up fairly comfortably, ahead of Fleetwood who also didn't beat Bradford.

That's not blinkered optimism it's simple reality.  Me saying we had loads of possession in these games and surely will turn a corner is daft optimism, me saying Bradford are a decent side who we'll have to be very good to beat isn't.

[arbitro]

6 minutes ago, DE. said:

Southend result did see some nonsense posted as excuses, but as it was the first game of the season you can let that slide. After Doncaster even a lot of the rainbow and sunshine crew were wallowing in the darkest pits of doom with the rest of us. 

We've had such a poor start to the season in terms of results AND performances that anything less than a win at Bradford is now not good enough. Simple as that for me. 

I agree. If we lose on Saturday one irrefutable fact will be that we are nine points behind Bradford and possibly Peterborough, Wigan and Fleetwood too. Even at this early stage that is a hell of a lot of catching up to do. At the moment the one glimmer of hope is that it is early in the season but performances so far are close to negating that theory I believe.

[Bigdoggsteel]

33 minutes ago, AggyBlue said:

I'm prepared for another over cautious approach from the manager, giving the initiative to the Bantams.

At least it's not a long trip home to stew on another defeat.

 

Interesting to see his approach. To be honest going there and trying to win 1-0 would be the sensible approach, however our first 2 performances mean a win is needed even more now so perhaps a less cautious approach is what Mowbray will go for. 

As long as the player appear to understand our approach this week, that would be progress 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, arbitro said:

I agree. If we lose on Saturday one irrefutable fact will be that we are nine points behind Bradford and possibly Peterborough, Wigan and Fleetwood too. Even at this early stage that is a hell of a lot of catching up to do. At the moment the one glimmer of hope is that it is early in the season but performances so far are close to negating that theory I believe.

We had a terrible 1st half against Southend and a terrible 2nd half against Doncaster. I find that very worrying. 

[DE.]

8 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

We had a terrible 1st half against Southend and a terrible 2nd half against Doncaster. I find that very worrying. 

The overall attitude in both matches just stunk. I wouldn't be so critical if it looked like the players were trying, but a lot of them appear to think we're still in pre-season. If the majority of our squad can't even motivate themselves for the first two matches of the season, how are they going to handle the slew of matches in December, or travelling to some dump of a stadium on a mudheap of a pitch in the depths of winter?   

We need a response on Saturday to prove this group are up for the fight. If we don't get it I think we have to anticipate a really miserable season and the genuine prospect of back-to-back relegations.

[Bigdoggsteel]

22 minutes ago, DE. said:

The overall attitude in both matches just stunk. I wouldn't be so critical if it looked like the players were trying, but a lot of them appear to think we're still in pre-season. If the majority of our squad can't even motivate themselves for the first two matches of the season, how are they going to handle the slew of matches in December, or travelling to some dump of a stadium on a mudheap of a pitch in the depths of winter?   

We need a response on Saturday to prove this group are up for the fight. If we don't get it I think we have to anticipate a really miserable season and the genuine prospect of back-to-back relegations.

Mowbray strikes me as the type of manager who relies on the players to motivate themselves. This involves strong leaders coming forward and demanding the best from others, think Roy Keane. I look around and I am worried we don't have players who care enough, if not even for the jersey, but for their own personal standards. 

All it takes is a player to clatter into the opposition and get your supporters on your side and the opposition supporters on their teams backs. It's all psychology. I will never forget qualifying for the 2002 world cup. We(Ireland) were playing the Netherlands and nobody gave us a hope. They had Overmars, van Nistelrooy, Seedorf, Van Bommel, Kluivert and a host of other superstars. We played them in Dublin and the crowd was so nervous. After about 5 minutes Roy Keane absolutely clattered Overmars. Now it was definitely a foul, but my God did it set the tone for the game. The crowd went wild and you could see the Dutch players shrink back and exchange glances between each other. We won 1-0 and qualified. Ironically it was a Blackburn player who scored the winner  

Does anyone remember the last time one of our players did something like that? I remember Batty, Savage, Nelson, Samba, Todd ,Dickov(actually he was great at it) all doing it at various times. 

It is worrying. 

[GreenRover]

6 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Mowbray strikes me as the type of manager who relies on the players to motivate themselves. This involves strong leaders coming forward and demanding the best from others, think Roy Keane. I look around and I am worried we don't have players who care enough, if not even for the jersey, but for their own personal standards. 

All it takes is a player to clatter into the opposition and get your supporters on your side and the opposition supporters on their teams backs. It's all psychology. I will never forget qualifying for the 2002 world cup. We(Ireland) were playing the Netherlands and nobody gave us a hope. They had Overmars, van Nistelrooy, Seedorf, Van Bommel, Kluivert and a host of other superstars. We played them in Dublin and the crowd was so nervous. After about 5 minutes Roy Keane absolutely clattered Overmars. Now it was definitely a foul, but my God did it set the tone for the game. the crowd went wild and you could see the Dutch players shrink back and exchange glances between each other. We won 1-0 and qualified. 

Does anyone remember the last time one of our players did something like that? I remember Batty, Savage, Nelson, samba, Todd ,Dickov(actually he was great at it) all doing it at various times. 

It is worrying. 

Exactly what is needed. You wouldn't mind someone taking a card if it meant that it got the team goin. A bit of guts needed this weekend. Hopefully will see it. ??????

[DE.]

7 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Mowbray strikes me as the type of manager who relies on the players to motivate themselves. This involves strong leaders coming forward and demanding the best from others, think Roy Keane. I look around and I am worried we don't have players who care enough, if not even for the jersey, but for their own personal standards. 

All it takes is a player to clatter into the opposition and get your supporters on your side and the opposition supporters on their teams backs. It's all psychology. I will never forget qualifying for the 2002 world cup. We(Ireland) were playing the Netherlands and nobody gave us a hope. They had Overmars, van Nistelrooy, Seedorf, Van Bommel, Kluivert and a host of other superstars. We played them in Dublin and the crowd was so nervous. After about 5 minutes Roy Keane absolutely clattered Overmars. Now it was definitely a foul, but my God did it set the tone for the game. the crowd went wild and you could see the Dutch players shrink back and exchange glances between each other. We won 1-0 and qualified. Ironically it was a Blackburn player who scored the winner  

Does anyone remember the last time one of our players did something like that? I remember Batty, Savage, Nelson, samba, Todd ,Dickov(actually he was great at it) all doing it at various times. 

It is worrying. 

I can't think of a single proper leader in our team. The best I can come up with is Mulgrew, but really that's more for his talent, age and experience than actual leadership skills. The fact Jason Lowe was named as captain last season really said it all as far as leadership in the squad is concerned.

Arguably Hanley and Duffy were the last two players we had with genuine leadership skills. Both thick as two planks of wood but at least tried to lead the team on the pitch.

[Blueandwhitemike]

5 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

Splitting hairs. We conceded 3 on Saturday in 45 minutes at home. 2 of those goals were certainly the fault of the defence and wouldn't have looked out of place on a school playground. Southend was similar judging by the goals. I'll stick with 'awful' and raise you an 'embarrassing' in the shape (both literally and figuratively).of Ward.

 

I disagree here, I thought although we didn't look good in the first half vs Donny, we were not awful.  Second half started with a terrible mistake from Ward ( one player ) then Mowbray made subs and we lost all shape whilst trying to keep the formation and we fell apart, personally I think that has as much to do with bad management as the defenders being bad.

 

I also think that the players need to show more balls and start taking responsibility but I don't necessarily think that means they don't care.  As previously mentioned Ward made a bad mistake for the first but in trying to make up for it he overcompensated flying into an unnecessary challenge and leaving Mulgrew exposed for the penalty (which I couldn't be sure even was on a penalty).

We have had quite a few yellow cards in the first two games haven't we? 6 or 7?

 

I was hoping that Whittingham would be the guy to make us tick but have been frustrated by his lack of taking responsibly when on the ball instead of playing simple passes most of the time (often sideways or backwards) but playing out of position in the Doncaster game I also felt some sympathy for him as there were few options ahead of him other than Danny Graham with two centre backs next to him.

 

No game is must win in August but we bloomin well better improve in every aspect against Bradford.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Blueandwhitemike said:

 

I disagree here, I thought although we didn't look good in the first half vs Donny, we were not awful.  Second half started with a terrible mistake from Ward ( one player ) then Mowbray made subs and we lost all shape whilst trying to keep the formation and we fell apart, personally I think that has as much to do with bad management as the defenders being bad.

 

I also think that the players need to show more balls and start taking responsibility but I don't necessarily think that means they don't care.  As previously mentioned Ward made a bad mistake for the first but in trying to make up for it he overcompensated flying into an unnecessary challenge and leaving Mulgrew exposed for the penalty (which I couldn't be sure even was on a penalty).

We have had quite a few yellow cards in the first two games haven't we? 6 or 7?

 

I was hoping that Whittingham would be the guy to make us tick but have been frustrated by his lack of taking responsibly when on the ball instead of playing simple passes most of the time (often sideways or backwards) but playing out of position in the Doncaster game I also felt some sympathy for him as there were few options ahead of him other than Danny Graham with two centre backs next to him.

 

No game is must win in August but we bloomin well better improve in every aspect against Bradford.

Was it Ward who chased their player to get the ball back after they scored the penalty? 

[gazsimm]

play an attacking team and we will win.

team should be

                          Raya

Nyambe Ward Mulgrew Williams

Feeney Evans Gladwin Conway (if Fit)

     Graham  Samuel

 

 

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

13 minutes ago, gazsimm said:

play an attacking team and we will win.

team should be

                          Raya

Nyambe Ward Mulgrew Williams

Feeney Evans Gladwin Conway (if Fit)

     Graham  Samuel

 

 

 

That midfield is atrocious! 

[LewisF]

I agree --- Gladwin at CM?

[arbitro]

22 minutes ago, Blueandwhitemike said:

 

I disagree here, I thought although we didn't look good in the first half vs Donny, we were not awful.  Second half started with a terrible mistake from Ward ( one player ) then Mowbray made subs and we lost all shape whilst trying to keep the formation and we fell apart, personally I think that has as much to do with bad management as the defenders being bad.

 

I also think that the players need to show more balls and start taking responsibility but I don't necessarily think that means they don't care.  As previously mentioned Ward made a bad mistake for the first but in trying to make up for it he overcompensated flying into an unnecessary challenge and leaving Mulgrew exposed for the penalty (which I couldn't be sure even was on a penalty).

We have had quite a few yellow cards in the first two games haven't we? 6 or 7?

 

I was hoping that Whittingham would be the guy to make us tick but have been frustrated by his lack of taking responsibly when on the ball instead of playing simple passes most of the time (often sideways or backwards) but playing out of position in the Doncaster game I also felt some sympathy for him as there were few options ahead of him other than Danny Graham with two centre backs next to him.

 

No game is must win in August but we bloomin well better improve in every aspect against Bradford.

I think the shape you refer to is a part of the problem aligned with the slow, laborious passing game that Mowbray is trying to impose on the team. Aside from the time when Graham should have played Whittingham in I can't recall any opportunities in the first half against Doncaster. We are far too easy to play against with the aforementioned passing game allowing opponents time to get behind the ball, regain their shape and deny us space. If we are to play a passing game it needs to be quick and incisive with a high work rate throughout the team. Players are having too many touches on the ball which decreases their options.

[Blueandwhitemike]

 

6 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I think the shape you refer to is a part of the problem aligned with the slow, laborious passing game that Mowbray is trying to impose on the team. Aside from the time when Graham should have played Whittingham in I can't recall any opportunities in the first half against Doncaster. We are far too easy to play against with the aforementioned passing game allowing opponents time to get behind the ball, regain their shape and deny us space. If we are to play a passing game it needs to be quick and incisive with a high work rate throughout the team. Players are having too many touches on the ball which decreases their options.

 

Agreed, formations do matter but equally it's about the application of those formations, TM didn't have the players 'on the front foot' unless they ignored his instruction.  I'm not a fan of the 3-4-2-1 but even using that, with the right players and right instructions it could work, unfortunately we weren't pressing high, didn't pass the ball quickly and had lots of players out of position.

Against Bradford Mowbray's first thought should be round pegs in round holes.

[Blueandwhitemike]

43 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Was it Ward who chased their player to get the ball back after they scored the penalty? 

It was Mulgrew I think

[ChrisPriceBaldSpot]

                   Raya

Caddis Mulgrew Wharton Williams

               Smallwood

       Evans                 Bennett

                   Dack

       Samuel   Graham

 

 

[Blue blood]

The weakness on the 4-2-3-1 system is that it very easily can have a lack of width if there is little movement from the 3 and be a very narrow formation, thereby asking a lot of the wing play to be done by our fullbacks. Aside from the fact our full backs don't have the offensive capabilities to do so, it also leaves them exposed and vulnerable to players getting in behind them. 

Mind you, looking at the players we've recruited that still seems to be the best system with what we've got.

My worry with 4-4-2 is that the cms are all quite deep lying. Only Evans (when fit) could be box to box, or potentially Bennett if moves inside. I'd also worry about Whittingham in a central 4 leaving too much for the other cm to do. Perhaps I'm mistaken as with 2 up top we may hold it up better allowing numbers to get forward in support of them. 

Another possibility is the 4-5-1 which can switch to 4-3-3 with two wide players pushing up or dropping back as necessary. This formation might suit the likes of Conway and Chapman out wide, but again is reliant on someone with a bit of an engine and a willingness to get forward somewhere in  the central 3. Again with Bennett inside it could work, and with 3 in the centre it may allow Whittingham to sit deep and just focus on his strengths. It also takes the onus of offensive play out wide from the full backs. 

Not quite sure how we've had a turnover of 20+ players and are struggling to find/discern a system that suits them mind...