[Archived] Scunthorpe United v ROVERS

[Gav]

Looks like it's beyond you blueboy3333 

 

[blueboy3333]

6 minutes ago, Gav said:

Looks like it's beyond you blueboy3333 

 

Yep, I thought you had nothing. You're like an empty vessel.

 I'd go through it again with your 'economist' friend if I were you. And you really shouldn't have admitted that you had to have someone 'walk' you through what asset-stripping is. Are you twelve?

If you're going to dismiss your fellow-fans as stupid, at least try not to make yourself look stupid in the same post

 

[47er]

Many fans, sadly, get carried away after 4 wins----in Div3! In this league you could run a club on a shoe-string, with low wages, small crowds, loans, sales of better players and free transfers in. In fact they are!

Enough wins and many fans would be satisfied. Venkys could go on this way forever. Everything Jack did down the drain while fans dream eternally of a return to the big-time which never comes.

[Gav]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Yep, I thought you had nothing. You're like an empty vessel.

 I'd go through it again with your 'economist' friend if I were you. And you really shouldn't have admitted that you had to have someone 'walk' you through what asset-stripping is. Are you twelve?

If you're going to dismiss as stupid your fellow-fans at least try not to make yourself look stupid in the same post

 

Its beyond you, let's just leave it at that.

 

[Skiptonrover]

I don't see anything special about the big time 

31 minutes ago, 47er said:

Many fans, sadly, get carried away after 4 wins----in Div3! In this league you could run a club on a shoe-string, with low wages, small crowds, loans, sales of better players and free transfers in. In fact they are!

Enough wins and many fans would be satisfied. Venkys could go on this way forever. Everything Jack did down the drain while fans dream eternally of a return to the big-time which never comes.

I don't dream about the big-time you can only punch above your weight for so long eventually clubs that do will all come down crashing to earth unless perpetually propped up. Nah not for me the PL stinks in my opinion with the money it's a league of haves & have nots, the likes of Stoke, West Brom will never win the league it's too predicatable Leicester was a 1 off. Give me a stable championship side any day of the week than a yo-yo side getting walloped week in & week out.

[Manchester Blue]

Anyone just saying I could explain it but it's beyond you is just being a bit sad tbh, however it's way off topic and as others have said living in the past is pretty pointless state in my opinion.

In terms of Whittingham, was thinking about this the other day and I think it's fair to say the system Mowbray wants to play by and large it's tough to see Whittingham starting.  However we're going to get injuries and also whilst on Tuesday I'd not have played him, on Saturday against a team packing men behind the ball more he could well be invaluable.  He is the kind of player who isn't going to run all day and make tonnes of tackles. but he will make the killer pass to unlock a defence. 

[RV Blue]

35 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Yep, I thought you had nothing. You're like an empty vessel.

 I'd go through it again with your 'economist' friend if I were you. And you really shouldn't have admitted that you had to have someone 'walk' you through what asset-stripping is. Are you twelve?

If you're going to dismiss your fellow-fans as stupid, at least try not to make yourself look stupid in the same post

 

Looks like Gav forgot to tell his respected economist friend that the vast majority of Rovers' loans are secured against Venky's assets in India and now he's trying to shut down the debate

[47er]

Just now, Bluebarley said:

I don't see anything special about the big time 

I don't dream about the big-time you can only punch above your weight for so long eventually clubs that do will all come down crashing to earth unless perpetually propped up. Nah not for me the PL stinks in my opinion with the money it's a league of haves & have nots, the likes of Stoke, West Brom will never win the league it's too predicatable Leicester was a 1 off.

You obviously don't want us to return to the Premier League and have no problem with the destruction of Jack's legacy. 10000 or fewer in a decaying stadium with loads of local derbys. Well you'll be happy then!

Fair enough but Gavs right. At some point, convenient to them, they will walk away leaving you with NOTHING.

[JHRover]

3 minutes ago, Bluebarley said:

I don't see anything special about the big time 

I don't dream about the big-time you can only punch above your weight for so long eventually clubs that do will all come down crashing to earth unless perpetually propped up. Nah not for me the PL stinks in my opinion with the money it's a league of haves & have nots, the likes of Stoke, West Brom will never win the league it's too predicatable Leicester was a 1 off. Give me a stable championship side any day of the week than a yo-yo side getting walloped week in & week out.

The 'propping up' you refer to is now a necessity for all clubs even in the Championship. So if you want to be a 'stable' Championship side it will require either substantial external funding or miraculous transfer business each year (a major sale and successful reinvestment every season - not going to happen with these owners and this structure). If we look at the likes of Derby, Villa, Fulham, Reading, plodding around in mid-table Championship they all need external funding to compete despite larger revenues than us.  

If you don't invest you don't compete. The only reason we're appearing well set for League One is because we've come down with a Championship financial structure and have maintained it whilst coming up against clubs with vastly inferior resources. If we go up any time soon the chequebook will need to come out otherwise we'll just do a Bolton/Wigan and yo-yo back to League One.

[Skiptonrover]

Just now, JHRover said:

The 'propping up' you refer to is now a necessity for all clubs even in the Championship. So if you want to be a 'stable' Championship side it will require either substantial external funding or miraculous transfer business each year (a major sale and successful reinvestment every season - not going to happen with these owners and this structure). If we look at the likes of Derby, Villa, Fulham, Reading, plodding around in mid-table Championship they all need external funding to compete despite larger revenues than us.  

If you don't invest you don't compete. The only reason we're appearing well set for League One is because we've come down with a Championship financial structure and have maintained it whilst coming up against clubs with vastly inferior resources. If we go up any time soon the chequebook will need to come out otherwise we'll just do a Bolton/Wigan and yo-yo back to League One.

I'm talking about a proper plan in place & more importantly executed effectively, nothing on the knock have now pay tomorrow. Debt long-term is destructive you're always chasing your tail, I'm of the belief that you cut your cloth accordingly.

[MarkBRFC]

1 hour ago, blueboy3333 said:

Evans is quality. He was a regular in the Hull team that got promoted to the Prem few years ago. He was brilliant when he first signed for us but injuries have ruined him for the last 2+ seasons. Like Mulgrew, Evans is a cut above this league on football ability and intelligence.

I'm not really disputing that, but my point of Evan's not improving still stands, he is a good player but he looks better this year because he's playing against third division midfielders.

[JHRover]

Just now, Bluebarley said:

I'm talking about a proper plan in place & more importantly executed effectively, nothing on the knock have now pay tomorrow. Debt long-term is destructive you're always chasing your tail, I'm of the belief that you cut your cloth accordingly.

If we want a model whereby we cut our cloth accordingly on gates of 10,000 and a commercial/corporate arm that has been reduced to rubble in the last few years then I think your hopes of being a steady Championship club are very optimistic. In the absence of significant income growth or significant external funding it would require massive 'overachievement' when competing with the likes of Derby, Wednesday, Villa - all of whom have both higher natural revenues, proper commercial/corporate departments and very wealthy owners throwing millions in every season.

I suppose we could look to emulate Barnsley, Preston and Burton Albion's financial approaches but all three of those clubs are locally owned, professionally run clubs that have got above us in the pyramid whilst spending and wasting a fraction of what Venkys have spent. All those clubs have directors, boards and understanding of the industry. We could be sat where PNE are now without £100,000,000 of debt but that would have required good management and planning, which hasn't been here for some time and regardless of Tony Mowbray's performance is unlikely to be here for as long as these owners are. There's more to running a football club than having a good/nice/decent manager in the dugout. Chairman, CEO, Directors all essential components in the long term development of a football club.

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, Gav said:

I had lunch (beer and a burger) a few days ago with an economist from a well respected university and he walked me though the Venky model, a model that's been used since time immemorial to asset strip businesses.

Loan upon loan upon loan, never actually putting their own hands in the pockets, and simply filtering the capital from Premiership money and play sales out, leaving £140m debt that will be slapped back on to the football club when they get around to signing the papers.

They're not keeping us afloat, they're ramping up the debt, and it's just a matter of when, not if, they dump the debt on the club having made millions on the back of it and ride off into the sunset.

This concept is beyond most fans comprehension, they just want to see a game of football and get away from the wife for an afternoon, nowt wrong with that either, but it's only a matter of time until this hits the fan and when it does? Who knows?

Briefly

Something I've been preaching since it all began and I firmly believe that's the way it was all set up and the intention albeit run by the hidden partners taking their cut.

Not sure if it's remained that way by now though as I reckon the Indian bank have been having most say in the financial side of it since probably the embargo, odd as it was, kicked in. I'm of a mind they realised the partners weren't playing a straight bat and were stitching it up good and proper so they put the brakes on what they could.

Doesn't really matter what it's secured against cash is cash and land is land, there has been a whole different set of questions over the ownership of said land back in India. I'm sure from the outset the whole thing is structured so if or when it does blow it won't take the whole core business with it. From after the embargo it looks as if their finance people found a new way of cooking the books just using it as an accounting tool offsetting VLL loses against other company profits which become very manageable if it's only losing 10 mill per annum rather than 30. The agent partners got squeezed out somewhat but were still allowed their little bits and bobs hence some of the players & managers we've continually got lumbered with.  I don't believe there is a 140 mill in loans probably less than half that with the rest being down as an oversees 'asset' on VH groups books after being propped up by company profits for a few years. This is why they never appear to stump up extra for actual transfers because they can't borrow more to do so and they'd have to plonk in personal cash which would then just get swallowed up by running costs so it all has to be done by freeing up money in the budget, often on freeing up wages or of course previous sales.

I reckon it's on quite an even keel now compared to the past but yes the first few years it was dodgy and it's truly amazing it's never all gone up in smoke but they have a serious line of credit with Banks in India to allow it to roll on that's for sure.

Where it goes now is all that matters and if whoever is pulling the purse strings holds their nerve for a year or two we might make progress and turn it into a viable option to sell as a solid championship club again with quite a few young assets on the books for that level. I think that's as good as it'll ever get again now with thee lot.

Here's hoping !

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

39 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

At the end of the day you can't change the past.  The past is history.  I too, was in Salzburg but still enjoyed the game on Tuesday night at Scunthorpe.  I can't change what has gone but I can enjoy the present upturn in results and performances.  Ultimately, you can't live in the past.  You have to make the best of what you have today and hope for better in the future.  Our owners aren't going anywhere anytime soon so one can only hope that the slight upturn in decision making this summer continues.

I wasn't at the Salzburg game but I was at Rochdale the last time we lost to them in the league in 1972. I despise our owners as much as anyone  but I still walked away from the latest Rochdale game with a smile on my face. I won't let the Chicken  Chokers take away what bits of pleasure I get from our recent upturn in fortune. I'm looking forward to Saturday afternoons again now and I'm not going to apologise for that.

[Skiptonrover]

15 minutes ago, JHRover said:

If we want a model whereby we cut our cloth accordingly on gates of 10,000 and a commercial/corporate arm that has been reduced to rubble in the last few years then I think your hopes of being a steady Championship club are very optimistic. In the absence of significant income growth or significant external funding it would require massive 'overachievement' when competing with the likes of Derby, Wednesday, Villa - all of whom have both higher natural revenues, proper commercial/corporate departments and very wealthy owners throwing millions in every season.

I suppose we could look to emulate Barnsley, Preston and Burton Albion's financial approaches but all three of those clubs are locally owned, professionally run clubs that have got above us in the pyramid whilst spending and wasting a fraction of what Venkys have spent. All those clubs have directors, boards and understanding of the industry. We could be sat where PNE are now without £100,000,000 of debt but that would have required good management and planning, which hasn't been here for some time and regardless of Tony Mowbray's performance is unlikely to be here for as long as these owners are. There's more to running a football club than having a good/nice/decent manager in the dugout. Chairman, CEO, Directors all essential components in the long term development of a football club.

The acid test I think will be is if we do get promoted into the championship if we can consolidate our position there & slowly build from there, to me that will demonstrate progress & signs of recovery nothing else, the jury is out on that 1 time will be the bearer.

[tomphil]

Have to say also that moves like selling Steele for 500k to sign Samuel not giving Lowe an new big money contract and replacing him with a cheaper more suitable player for this level and loaning out another good earner in Feeney are absolute masterstrokes in my book.

That's the proper way to do things and if it's down to Mowbrays experienced approach and it probably is...... Hail Big Tony !

[Gav]

18 minutes ago, Bluebarley said:

The acid test I think will be is if we do get promoted into the championship if we can consolidate our position there & slowly build from there, to me that will demonstrate progress & signs of recovery nothing else, the jury is out on that 1 time will be the bearer.

That's where we sat in 1982 and remained in that position for 10yrs, sometimes flirting with relegation and sometimes on the brink of the promised land, good days looking back.

Sadly this situation doesn't end as well as that did, we can never progress under Venkys, it's an impossibility, and you just know that if/when a promotion push is full swing those rats will do or say something that will put paid to any success.

It wouldn't surprise me if we ended up 12 points clear and they bung us in administration, you heard it here first......

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

Many fans, sadly, get carried away after 4 wins----in Div3! In this league you could run a club on a shoe-string, with low wages, small crowds, loans, sales of better players and free transfers in. In fact they are!

Enough wins and many fans would be satisfied. Venkys could go on this way forever. Everything Jack did down the drain while fans dream eternally of a return to the big-time which never comes.

After the last seven years of pretty much failure winning four on the spin does give a false sense of success to some but that has to tempered with reality. And that reality, as you rightly say is League One and a real dumbing down of expectation. If we lose to Wimbledon on Saturday the foreboding sense of failure will be back for some.

Don't get me wrong I love seeing us win but that short lived euphoria soon gives way to the realisation of what they have done to our club. I will never forgive or forget.

[Paul]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I wasn't at the Salzburg game but I was at Rochdale the last time we lost to them in the league in 1972. I despise our owners as much as anyone  but I still walked away from the latest Rochdale game with a smile on my face. I won't let the Chicken  Chokers take away what bits of pleasure I get from our recent upturn in fortune. I'm looking forward to Saturday afternoons again now and I'm not going to apologise for that.

Exactly. The day I stop enjoying a trip to Ewood and a Rovers win is the day the Raos have won and I've no intention of letting that happen. 

Yes I've sat in my seat miserable as sin for game after game but now I can enjoy a little bit of progress on the pitch. I almost went to Scunthorpe, first time I've considered an away game in years.

Against MK Dons I felt that great feeling of pride in the team begin to resurface. It's been lost for a long while. I have no support for the owners, I was roundly derided on here for mistrusting them from the very outset. One of those who did is criticising fans in this thread. Nothing has changed in my feelings about the Raos. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Paul said:

Exactly. The day I stop enjoying a trip to Ewood and a Rovers win is the day the Raos have won and I've no intention of letting that happen. 

Yes I've sat in my seat miserable as sin for game after game but now I can enjoy a little bit of progress on the pitch. I almost went to Scunthorpe, first time I've considered an away game in years.

Against MK Dons I felt that great feeling of pride in the team begin to resurface. It's been lost for a long while. I have no support for the owners, I was roundly derided on here for mistrusting them from the very outset. One of those who did is criticising fans in this thread. Nothing has changed in my feelings about the Raos. 

Me neither. I wish them a long and lingering death for what they've done to the Club and to the Town. But when Rovers win and win well I can't help smiling and I've got that spring back in my step.

[47er]

7 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Me neither. I wish them a long and lingering death for what they've done to the Club and to the Town. But when Rovers win and win well I can't help smiling and I've got that spring back in my step.

Me too but I cannot forget the context.

Watched that Salzburg clip Gav. What about the two games with City that follow? 3-0 and 4-2 to us under Mark Hughes. 

Seeing both Derbyshire and Gallacher  score in the second game brought a lump to my throat.

[Athlete]

3 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

I believe they were badly advised by people who made a lot of money out of Rovers (there has never been any proof to the contrary, and all the leaked documents back this up to some extent) but I don't blame the fans or think Venky's have put in more money than Jack.

Maybe have a re-think on your pigeonholes.

 

they weren't badly advised in fact they were well advised in what they were doing....only the big fella got stung by bigger charlatans

[Athlete]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

Briefly

Something I've been preaching since it all began and I firmly believe that's the way it was all set up and the intention albeit run by the hidden partners taking their cut.

Not sure if it's remained that way by now though as I reckon the Indian bank have been having most say in the financial side of it since probably the embargo, odd as it was, kicked in. I'm of a mind they realised the partners weren't playing a straight bat and were stitching it up good and proper so they put the brakes on what they could.

Doesn't really matter what it's secured against cash is cash and land is land, there has been a whole different set of questions over the ownership of said land back in India. I'm sure from the outset the whole thing is structured so if or when it does blow it won't take the whole core business with it. From after the embargo it looks as if their finance people found a new way of cooking the books just using it as an accounting tool offsetting VLL loses against other company profits which become very manageable if it's only losing 10 mill per annum rather than 30. The agent partners got squeezed out somewhat but were still allowed their little bits and bobs hence some of the players & managers we've continually got lumbered with.  I don't believe there is a 140 mill in loans probably less than half that with the rest being down as an oversees 'asset' on VH groups books after being propped up by company profits for a few years. This is why they never appear to stump up extra for actual transfers because they can't borrow more to do so and they'd have to plonk in personal cash which would then just get swallowed up by running costs so it all has to be done by freeing up money in the budget, often on freeing up wages or of course previous sales.

I reckon it's on quite an even keel now compared to the past but yes the first few years it was dodgy and it's truly amazing it's never all gone up in smoke but they have a serious line of credit with Banks in India to allow it to roll on that's for sure.

Where it goes now is all that matters and if whoever is pulling the purse strings holds their nerve for a year or two we might make progress and turn it into a viable option to sell as a solid championship club again with quite a few young assets on the books for that level. I think that's as good as it'll ever get again now with thee lot.

Here's hoping !

 

That is hoping......I don't think they are going anywhere soon especially if the club is being used as a accounting tool for the rest of their business corporation..

Now if a proper board was appointed then just maybe we could see some progress towards a sale...but at this moment in time it's hardly likely

[Athlete]

7 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

At the end of the day you can't change the past.  The past is history.  I too, was in Salzburg but still enjoyed the game on Tuesday night at Scunthorpe.  I can't change what has gone but I can enjoy the present upturn in results and performances.  Ultimately, you can't live in the past.  You have to make the best of what you have today and hope for better in the future.  Our owners aren't going anywhere anytime soon so one can only hope that the slight upturn in decision making this summer continues.

sorry PB how many times have you harked back to the past ?

The point I'm making is I enjoyed the other night but no disrespect to Scunthorpe.....Salzburg etc was much much better

[tomphil]

22 minutes ago, Athlete said:

sorry PB how many times have you harked back to the past ?

The point I'm making is I enjoyed the other night but disrespect to Scunthorpe.....Salzburg etc was much much better

On the hope point its born out of the fact that two teams of accountants have come in and hopefully spelled it all out in writing what needs to be done. Someone somewhere has finally made an attempt to get a grip on it by the looks of it, my money has always been on it being the bankers not w******s.

Any decent planner would say get it straight then cut your losses or you'll just have a repeat process. Like you say though their finance men might think otherwise and plodding with the current model is a handy way to finally make owning the club worthwhile.