Harry Chapman

[rigger]

10 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Not been the same player since the injuries.

If he isn't in the first team or on the bench, then he should be with the U23s. 

[47er]

I remember we were ecstatic when he signed after his on-loan performances. A real shame it didn't work out for whatever reason.

[rigger]

14 hours ago, 47er said:

I remember we were ecstatic when he signed after his on-loan performances. A real shame it didn't work out for whatever reason.

I would still like the Rovers to try to get something out of Chapman.

Edited January 24, 2022 by rigger

[Tom]

Honestly the first few performances at Ewood from the bench he looked a special talent.

Similar in style to (but not comparable to) Duff in that when he got the ball you expected something to happen, he just had that spark.

Once he got injured the spark disappeared.

[Mattyblue]

I’ve never known a player that’s done so little here have such revered status. 

He looked an exciting prospect in the third division, but a combination of injuries and attitude has seen him fall away, that’s football, and if he had anything to offer a team hoping for PL promotion, now aged 24, he would certainly have ripped it up at lowly Burton Albion.

It’s a shame, but both sides need to move on.
 

[ben_the_beast]

I wonder how fit the bloke is and what his professionalism is like away from training. Mowbray has been consistent in what he'd require from Chapman without going into more detail which could be damaging for his future career prospects. Either way, he's been a massive waste of talent. Fingers crossed he gets his career back on track at another club but I have my doubts. 

[JacknOry]

40 minutes ago, ben_the_beast said:

I wonder how fit the bloke is and what his professionalism is like away from training. Mowbray has been consistent in what he'd require from Chapman without going into more detail which could be damaging for his future career prospects. Either way, he's been a massive waste of talent. Fingers crossed he gets his career back on track at another club but I have my doubts. 

Just time to call it quits now. Even though he is is on a low wage in footballing terms, its still more than most of will earn. Money, blagging, and all that shit for a youngster - unfortunately, it might lead to a career of nothingness. I was his biggest fan too. Got some wedge now but if you dont up your game Harry, by time you hit 30, you on the dole. 

[TheRoversReturn]

It's a shame, but these things happen. All the best of luck to Harry in the future, but his future will not be with Rovers, that much is clear. 

[Mattyblue]

Reading their forum, same thing as usual. Obviously has talent,  but doesn’t work hard enough, not fit enough…

https://burtonbrewers.proboards.com/thread/4813/chapman-departs

[RoverCanada]

I hadn't clocked on to Chapman running into the max two clubs per year FIFA rule given his brief sub appearances here + the Burton loan. I think there's an exception if he can be sold to a league with an overlapping season (MLS or the Nordics?)... but doubtful any such interest could arise (and I vaguely recall Chapman worrying about homesickness during his Shrewsbury loan...)

So, it's likely either stick around here for the rest of the year, perhaps making the bench if we're light on attackers (like the Middlesbrough game, but speaks volumes that TM would rather have Garrett on the bench and have Chapman play for the u23s when he should be midseason fit...), or Burton takes him back again (maybe still covering some wage, but doubtful...), but doesn't sound like he impressed there at all. Maybe the latter could still arise as Burton appear to be desperate for attacking help...

Anyway, always an odd one, and as I've suggested earlier I think he stuck around due to our qualifying offer essentially tying him to us one more year due to Bosman rules. Shame it hasn't worked out, but I can't take too much issue with taking a cheap-ish punt on players like him (and I doubt he's been 'disruptive' in the dressing room considering his lack of stature).

[riverholmes]

The bizarre limbo situation with Harry Chapman takes one last turn, as he completes a deadline day exit on loan back to Burton Albion for the remainder of the season, having returned to make it onto the bench for Rovers match day squad against Luton, in the last game. 

From the outset of the signing for an undisclosed fee, in 2019, from Boro and a 2.5 year contract, Mowbray seemed somewhat ambivalent about the short-term readiness of the player, saying on signing Chapman: "“He needs to do a lot of work on his body, so I don’t think we’ll see him for a while. I don’t think he’s even fit enough to go out on loan. We will be getting him ready for the intensity to play for us."

In May 2021, Chapman returned to the club after an excellent loan spell at Shrewsbury in League One, largely playing as a No.10, scoring seven goals and getting three assists, Mowbray said: "we felt he needed to play 20 or 30 appearances and that he would benefit more from that than nine or 10 substitute appearances and two or three starts,”

However, the manager alluded that either a player dedicates himself to improving or "you like being one of the lads, like the trappings, and you think you should be playing all the time and get frustrated and sulky if you’re not in the team. I haven’t got time for that. It’s down to Harry. He has to step up."

Mowbray exercised Chapman's one year extension, last summer, and the midfielder returned to the Rovers fold at the start of this season and made an impressive appearance (albeit a brief one) off the bench, earning a free kick that leads to a late goal (for Ayala?). Fans assumed that he's back in the fray but Rovers loan in Poveda, Clarkson and Khadra from Premier League reserve sides and Chapman is sent to Burton Albion on loan, where he struggles.

When asked in the media, in late December 2021, what his plans are for Chapman, for when his Burton loan ends, Mowbray said: “I’m sure that’s a conversation that’s coming, it’s not been at the forefront of my mind, but it will be.” Mowbray added: “He’s a body for us. The question is whether Chappy can come and impact our team if he can’t be a regular starter for Burton in League One."

After a decent Rovers U23 appearance, getting a few assists, and with others out injured, he got recalled to sit on the first team bench against Luton. Injuries to Dolan and Markanday looked to open a chance for him to compete with Butterworth as a squad player. He didn't get on and that was likely his last contribution in Rovers colours, as he rejoins Burton Albion until his contract expires in the summer.

Chapman has been criticised by Burton fans for not working hard enough and not contributing enough on the pitch. He wasn't a regular, though, got back into the team at the end of the spell. I read a comment that he demonstrated his frustration at being subbed (either at Shrewsbury or Burton) by refusing a handshake with the manager. After scoring that goal against Crewe, prior to returning to Rovers, he celebrated in front of opposition fans - which is the kind of behaviour you might expect from someone who has the stats and performances to back up the bravado.

However, I believe that Mowbray and the club have mismanaged the player, at least, in the past season. Even from the off, Mowbray seemed unconvinced by him, which makes the signing a curious one. After his excellent return at Shrewsbury on loan, he deserved a decision from the club. Either they gave him a chance, or they released him or sold him. Prolonging his limbo career by extending his contract and sending him out on loan again, after giving him a taste of first team football, seemed to have no purpose and was likely to have the effect to demoralise the player. 

He has good England youth international football antecedents, like Adam Armstrong and Ben Brereton and, as Mowbray said on signing him: "He has blistering speed on the transition, can run past a man one-on-one and create opportunities for us." I hope he can rebuild his career.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by riverholmes

[bluebruce]

4 hours ago, riverholmes said:

The bizarre limbo situation with Harry Chapman takes one last turn, as he completes a deadline day exit on loan back to Burton Albion for the remainder of the season, having returned to make it onto the bench for Rovers match day squad against Luton, in the last game. 

From the outset of the signing for an undisclosed fee, in 2019, from Boro and a 2.5 year contract, Mowbray seemed somewhat ambivalent about the short-term readiness of the player, saying on signing Chapman: "“He needs to do a lot of work on his body, so I don’t think we’ll see him for a while. I don’t think he’s even fit enough to go out on loan. We will be getting him ready for the intensity to play for us."

In May 2021, Chapman returned to the club after an excellent loan spell at Shrewsbury in League One, largely playing as a No.10, scoring seven goals and getting three assists, Mowbray said: "we felt he needed to play 20 or 30 appearances and that he would benefit more from that than nine or 10 substitute appearances and two or three starts,”

However, the manager alluded that either a player dedicates himself to improving or "you like being one of the lads, like the trappings, and you think you should be playing all the time and get frustrated and sulky if you’re not in the team. I haven’t got time for that. It’s down to Harry. He has to step up."

Mowbray exercised Chapman's one year extension, last summer, and the midfielder returned to the Rovers fold at the start of this season and made an impressive appearance (albeit a brief one) off the bench, earning a free kick that leads to a late goal (for Ayala?). Fans assumed that he's back in the fray but Rovers loan in Poveda, Clarkson and Khadra from Premier League reserve sides and Chapman is sent to Burton Albion on loan, where he struggles.

When asked in the media, in late December 2021, what his plans are for Chapman, for when his Burton loan ends, Mowbray said: “I’m sure that’s a conversation that’s coming, it’s not been at the forefront of my mind, but it will be.” Mowbray added: “He’s a body for us. The question is whether Chappy can come and impact our team if he can’t be a regular starter for Burton in League One."

After a decent Rovers U23 appearance, getting a few assists, and with others out injured, he got recalled to sit on the first team bench against Luton. Injuries to Dolan and Markanday looked to open a chance for him to compete with Butterworth as a squad player. He didn't get on and that was likely his last contribution in Rovers colours, as he rejoins Burton Albion until his contract expires in the summer.

Chapman has been criticised by Burton fans for not working hard enough and not contributing enough on the pitch. He wasn't a regular, though, got back into the team at the end of the spell. I read a comment that he demonstrated his frustration at being subbed (either at Shrewsbury or Burton) by refusing a handshake with the manager. After scoring that goal against Crewe, prior to returning to Rovers, he celebrated in front of opposition fans - which is the kind of behaviour you might expect from someone who has the stats and performances to back up the bravado.

However, I believe that Mowbray and the club have mismanaged the player, at least, in the past season. Even from the off, Mowbray seemed unconvinced by him, which makes the signing a curious one. After his excellent return at Shrewsbury on loan, he deserved a decision from the club. Either they gave him a chance, or they released him or sold him. Prolonging his limbo career by extending his contract and sending him out on loan again, after giving him a taste of first team football, seemed to have no purpose and was likely to have the effect to demoralise the player. 

He has good England youth international football antecedents, like Adam Armstrong and Ben Brereton and, as Mowbray said on signing him: "He has blistering speed on the transition, can run past a man one-on-one and create opportunities for us." I hope he can rebuild his career.

 

Good summary, although as far as we can tell from reports at the time, it turned out there either was no extension in his contract or we hadn't met the conditions for extending it. We in fact got him to sign a new 1-year contract.

Lad does seem to have an attitude problem, although to a degree it's been understandable as I do agree he has been mismanaged. At some points I'd even say messed around. We will never know whether the deal could have worked great with a different manager in charge. But we do know the deal as it happened was a waste of money for BRFC.

[riverholmes]

Thanks for the correction - yes, you're right, the wording released by Rovers suggests that it was a new contract, rather than the unilateral extension that's been relied upon in other cases: "Rovers are pleased to announce that Harry Chapman has signed a new one-year deal with the club." - 29 June 2021. 

[briansol]

9 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Good summary, although as far as we can tell from reports at the time, it turned out there either was no extension in his contract or we hadn't met the conditions for extending it. We in fact got him to sign a new 1-year contract.

Lad does seem to have an attitude problem, although to a degree it's been understandable as I do agree he has been mismanaged. At some points I'd even say messed around. We will never know whether the deal could have worked great with a different manager in charge. But we do know the deal as it happened was a waste of money for BRFC.

Not sure it would've been so different around another manager. He was a big talent for Boro, but they had no problem getting rid of him either. Naturally gifted, but there seems to be something lacking when it comes to application and attitude.  Those personality traits are hard to improve. If you've ever played football at any level, you'd met a Harry Chapman type, lot's of ability but no desire.

 

[bazza]

Yep. Time to stop blaming Tony for "mismanagement".

[bluebruce]

On 01/02/2022 at 11:20, briansol said:

Not sure it would've been so different around another manager. He was a big talent for Boro, but they had no problem getting rid of him either. Naturally gifted, but there seems to be something lacking when it comes to application and attitude.  Those personality traits are hard to improve. If you've ever played football at any level, you'd met a Harry Chapman type, lot's of ability but no desire.

 

That's why I said we will never know if it would have been different under another manager. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. I'm sure there are managers out there who could have brought the best out of him, but maybe for 90% of managers, or more, it would have gone the same way. Who knows.

I definitely saw desire from him on the pitch at times, but I've had the impression his ego is a little fragile and being not even considered for the wing when all we had there was strikers probably did a bit of a number on that ego and reduced his drive. The best personalities brush that off, for sure, but that's not to say there's no way he could have been man managed better to get the most out of him or he couldn't have still made it.

But you can't win them all. Sometimes your man management style will work on a player, sometimes it's not compatible. And it's done now, water under the bridge and we are 2nd in the league without having needed to maximise Harry Chapman's potential. As long as the management style works for the majority of the squad, which at the moment it's hard to argue otherwise.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Given that ‘Boro let him go, Shrewsbury didn’t buy him and Burton seemed in two minds about another loan, I think Harry has bigger issues than Mowbray.

[riverholmes]

I suppose, the kindest theory, to Mowbray, is that he hadn't planned his squad and recruitment much in June 2021 and therefore, went for safety first to retain Chapman as "a body" in the squad [Mowbray's terminology in recent quotes about Chapman] and later, made impulsive decisions to sign Poveda, Khadra and Clarkson, along with the other forwards, which made Chapman, who Mowbray doesn't get on with, disposable.

The idea that Mowbray wanted to give Chapman another chance seems unlikely given that he was sent out on loan and Rovers signed several on loan attacking midfielders - and Mowbray continues to be critical of his application and attitude.

Edit: To enter into guesswork now, based on no evidence, really, it might be that Rovers offered the contract in the expectation that Chapman would refuse it and leave on a free and, as a U24 player, might command compensation. I believe, though not sure, that a club must make an effort to retain a young player, before there can be any compensation award when they leave on a Bosman. However, I suppose there must be guards against this kind of ruse, so I'm not sure it is viable. Moreover, it would suggest much more planning and thought than is generally evidenced by the club's contract renewal dealings.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by riverholmes

[riverholmes]

Harry Chapman quotes from the LET website:  “When I was at Blackburn, I used to travel from Hartlepool ever day, a two-hour slog there and a two-hour slog back. I think that affected performances because my body wasn’t right from all the travelling. Living locally, I’ve definitely reaped the rewards from that."

To me, this adds to the big question marks over renewing Chapman's contract. It's a personal decision for him as to where to live, which he has every right to make but if Mowbray thinks he's not committed on the pitch and for personal reasons he's staying in Hartlepool, it's fairly clear that there's not much a future for him at the club.

Edited May 12, 2022 by riverholmes

[RoverCanada]

On 04/02/2022 at 07:54, riverholmes said:

To enter into guesswork now, based on no evidence, really, it might be that Rovers offered the contract in the expectation that Chapman would refuse it and leave on a free and, as a U24 player, might command compensation. I believe, though not sure, that a club must make an effort to retain a young player, before there can be any compensation award when they leave on a Bosman. However, I suppose there must be guards against this kind of ruse, so I'm not sure it is viable. Moreover, it would suggest much more planning and thought than is generally evidenced by the club's contract renewal dealings.

Yeah, that's the theory I laid out earlier this year, which made sense to me. Offer him a contract to 'protect the asset' given we'd be entitled to compensation if he turns it down, see how he does in preseason, then try to flog him off, or at least loan him out with some of his wage subsidised (as it turned out), if he doesn't impress.

Chapman probably signed on knowing a) it's probably a better wage then he'd receive at any L1 club (and possibly the best wage he'll ever earn...), b) the compensation requirement may have effectively tied him to us anyway (how many clubs would've been willing to spend maybe £200-300k compensation on him last summer?)

Wouldn't surprise me if it was a 'financial' decision that was out of Mowbray's hands. I ultimately don't mind as it makes sense to me and it can't have been too costly for us overall. Doesn't strike me as a 'ruse'. It's similar to how 'restricted free agent' rules work in North American sports. Goes back to the tension between giving players the freedom to choose their employer (like any normal labour market...) versus clubs being assured compensation for developing young players.

Chapman ultimately had 33 appearances this year and presumably had a real opportunity to excel at Burton after finally showing some promise again at Shrews. Nobody to blame but himself... Will be curious to see where he lands.

43 minutes ago, riverholmes said:

Harry Chapman quotes from the LET website:  “When I was at Blackburn, I used to travel from Hartlepool ever day, a two-hour slog there and a two-hour slog back. I think that affected performances because my body wasn’t right from all the travelling. Living locally, I’ve definitely reaped the rewards from that."

To me, this adds to the big question marks over renewing Chapman's contract. It's a personal decision for him as to where to live, which he has every right to make but if Mowbray thinks he's not committed on the pitch and for personal reasons he's staying in Hartlepool, it's fairly clear that there's not much a future for him at the club.

So bizarre. I remember Mowbray calling out Johnson for the same thing when he first came to Rovers.

I recall Chapman also made some comment about getting over homesickness at Shrews. I think it's one of those odd cases where you bring in an immature younger player from outside of the northwest. It's an odd counterfactual, but you wonder how it would've turned out if he was simply a Blackburn lad coming through our Academy, although I suppose he ultimately didn't come through at Middlesbrough either...

Edited May 12, 2022 by RoverCanada

[Tom]

Shame how it turned out here but at the same time good riddance

Has a career millions dream of and doesn’t ever really seem committed to make the most of it 

[Mattyblue]

Footballers ay! So entitled, everything on a plate. All you need to do is keep fit and half of them can’t be arsed with that…

[tomphil]

Good riddance to him and his narrative altering boss.

The hypocrisy of this moaning about travelling and where to live was embarrassing.

[K-Hod]

I said this about Mowbray, you sign for Blackburn Rovers and are surprised where we are located, despite being in the same town for the best part of 140 years and want sympathy. Sit down.

[Mattyblue]

There was a load of them travelling pretty big distances every day at one point; Graham, Downing, Chapman, I assume Pears, Johnson from Derby.

It’s up to them, but can’t be good for you if you want to operate at optimum levels…