[Archived] Crewe - FA Cup (Again!)

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

9 hours ago, skous18 said:

I dont know if you have played football in your life, but i used to play not so long ago as a midfielder and I have to tell you that even though i wasnt that good ,I always knew if there was someone behind me, next to me or around me. Everytime when i was moving or someone was passing the ball to me i was just taking a look behind me to see where the other players are. I am telling you, no matter how good you are if you play football you just have it as a habit. If that Harper guy didnt know that there was someone around him(considering where he was) he is nothing but a conman

I played a bit back in the day and I agree that you need to be aware of your opponents at all times. Looking all around you constantly when you're not in possession is an essential habit to acquire. If you " show " for the ball you should be able to recieve it safely. However smart you and I may have been as experienced players I wouldn't have thanked you for that pass. With a bit of luck I may have just belted it out for a throw in or maybe a corner.

Looking at the video that's a skill Harper has yet to gain. 

I would still argue that he's got a right to expect not to played into trouble by a team mate out wide who should have a better view of play than he had. Lose the ball out on the wing - that's dangerous, lose the ball on the edge of your own penalty area- that's disastrous. Whoever gave him the ball in that situation  needs a bollocking. If it was Wharton that's two young players that should have learned from that.

When I saw Wharton in that brief spell he had at Rochdale I liked the way he always tried to find a Rovers shirt with the ball but he needs to learn when to " Stick " and when to " Twist ". He should have looking down the line away from the danger area not back across our own penalty area.

I've not seen a lot of us this season but I've been concerned at our ability to play each other into trouble in our last third of the pitch. This isn't the first time I've seen that sort of error but previously we've been lucky to get away with it.

[arbitro]

10 hours ago, JAL said:

 

Trust me John I have spent most of my adult life around lots of referees who know the Laws verbatim but they don't know the game. That particular Law change has really muddied the water as far a red/yellow card offence goes for the denial of a goal scoring opportunity. There is confusion amongst referees about this Elleray inspired change so how do you expect the paying customers to react? The Crewe manager was also confused and didn't think it should have been a red card and talked about 'double jeopardy'. I would imagine he got that from one of the pre season meetings with referee managers and coaches.

Before you took up refereeing did you know the LOTG? I certainly didn't.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 hours ago, JHRover said:

We're going to have to be able to deal with Bennett's absence. At the end of the day its no different to if he picked up an injury on Sunday. He's now out for the next 4 games so we need to slot someone else into the first XI who can hit the ground running. Over a 46 game season plus cup fixtures we are going to have absentees through injury and suspension and need to be able to deal with those. The reason Burnley have done so well recently is because they very rarely get injuries or suspensions but when they do they are able to cope with the enforced changes smoothly. 

Whether its the dreadful officials or sloppiness on our part I do feel we're picking up too many silly yellows and reds which are harming our chances. Bennett I sympathise with for his 2 reds but a lot of others have picked up daft bookings when there is no need for it. One off the top of my head was Smallwood's booking for diving in the first half at Blackpool. Stupidity really at such an early stage in the game. Up until the Barnet game the other week we had picked up more bookings than the opposition in about 80% of our fixtures this season and that has to stop. I am quite happy to lambaste the officials whenever an opportunity arises but feel we need to control things better on that front and stop presenting these inept buffoons with opportunities to do us in.

Game management is crucial in getting over the line to promotion. Once in the driving seat in games we have to be able to see it through and deal with the situation, yet I worry from what I have seen that we haven't got enough 'nous' to carry us comfortably over the line in games. We're making life hard work for ourselves by giving away soft goals and accumulating bookings and suspensions too quickly.

I agree with you about discipline. From what I read Samuel got plenty of stick during Sunday's game  but it sounds like he was starting to lose the plot by the end. Given the fact he's only just got back from a 3 match suspension were he temporarily lost his place in the team you'd think he'd a learnt a lesson.

I know it's hard when you think you've not had a fair crack of the whip from the officials but when you're already down to 9 men and the ref obviously likes to flash the cards you've got to take it on the chin. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I played a bit back in the day and I agree that you need to be aware of your opponents at all times. Looking all around you constantly when you're not in possession is an essential habit to acquire. If you " show " for the ball you should be able to recieve it safely. However smart you and I may have been as experienced players I wouldn't have thanked you for that pass. With a bit of luck I may have just belted it out for a throw in or maybe a corner.

Looking at the video that's a skill Harper has yet to gain. 

I would still argue that he's got a right to expect not to played into trouble by a team mate out wide who should have a better view of play than he had. Lose the ball out on the wing - that's dangerous, lose the ball on the edge of your own penalty area- that's disastrous. Whoever gave him the ball in that situation  needs a bollocking. If it was Wharton that's two young players that should have learned from that.

When I saw Wharton in that brief spell he had at Rochdale I liked the way he always tried to find a Rovers shirt with the ball but he needs to learn when to " Stick " and when to " Twist ". He should have been  looking down the line away from the danger area and not back across our own penalty area.

I've not seen a lot of us this season but I've been concerned at our ability to play each other into trouble in our last third of the pitch. This isn't the first time I've seen that sort of error but previously we've been lucky to get away with it.

 

[JHRover]

Just to add to the issue of discipline.

We've had 23 games this season - 19 in the League, 2 in the League Cup and 2 in the FA Cup.

In those 23 games we have picked up more bookings than the opposition 15 times, the same amount of bookings 3 times and less than the opposition 5 times.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

Just to add to the issue of discipline.

We've had 23 games this season - 19 in the League, 2 in the League Cup and 2 in the FA Cup.

In those 23 games we have picked up more bookings than the opposition 15 times, the same amount of bookings 3 times and less than the opposition 5 times.

I like that in a way. Shows we have fight.

Stupid reds and yellows for things like kicking the ball away or diving ,I'm not a fan of.  

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I like that in a way. Shows we have fight.

Stupid reds and yellows for things like kicking the ball away or diving ,I'm not a fan of.  

Nothing wrong with showing some fight but the trouble is it can harm our chances in games - Crewe & Wigan - it also means our players are walking on eggshells in games avoiding getting 2nd yellows when soft ones have been picked up.

We need to give these officials absolutely no opportunity to do us in - because make no mistake if we present an opportunity they will grasp it with relish.

We've seen we cannot rely on them to provide a good standard of officiating so we need to take it away from them and give them no opportunity to affect the outcome of games as they have so far. If we can't depend on them to show consistency and a good standard of officiating then the next best thing to that is minimise the number of major decisions they have to make in games.

[Bigdoggsteel]

6 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Nothing wrong with showing some fight but the trouble is it can harm our chances in games - Crewe & Wigan - it also means our players are walking on eggshells in games avoiding getting 2nd yellows when soft ones have been picked up.

We need to give these officials absolutely no opportunity to do us in - because make no mistake if we present an opportunity they will grasp it with relish.

We've seen we cannot rely on them to provide a good standard of officiating so we need to take it away from them and give them no opportunity to affect the outcome of games as they have so far. If we can't depend on them to show consistency and a good standard of officiating then the next best thing to that is minimise the number of major decisions they have to make in games.

We can't lose aggression because we are afraid of bad refereeing decisions. 

Cut out petulant bookings ie ;diving , time wasting, kicking the ball away and dissent. I wouldn't want us to start pussy footing around ,backing out of 50/50s because we are afraid that the referee might get the call wrong. 

[arbitro]

Whatever happened to putting full backs on posts at corners? Crewe's second and third goals would have been prevented had we done this.

[nathan_rovers1]

2 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Whatever happened to putting full backs on posts at corners? Crewe's second and third goals would have been prevented had we done this.

Didn't have any players... 

[JHRover]

Just now, renrag said:

Have to agree the standard of refereeing at this level leaves a lot to be desired but some of our fans do have a conspiracy complex. For example during a discussion a group of us were having about the Bennett red card, one guy said the linesman involved was from Northampton and Northampton was one of the games Bennett would miss. The implication was ludicrous yet he was serious.

At the same time I feel the club have let the player and fans down by not appealing 

The most annoying thing for me is that 9 times out of 10 a linesman won't give anything. They are instructed to leave it all to the referee, even basic decisions such as throw ins we're increasingly seeing the linesman keep his flag down and await direction from the referee before sticking his flag up. Then all of a sudden this bloke decides that he's going to make a massive call by telling his mate to give a red card out.

Increasingly rare these days that a linesman will award a penalty or other major decisions in games.

I'd just like some consistency. I've no problem with linesmen and 4th officials helping the referee as often as possible but that has to be done for all decisions throughout a game. Instead we see it time and time again where 'softer' free kicks and yellow card offences right under the linesmans nose aren't given because he leaves it to the referee to decide but then this time because the referee was running away this linesman has not only cost us the game against Crewe but also got Bennett a suspension for 4 games.

On top of that again I wouldn't have many complaints if it was a blatant red i.e. a stamp or elbow but having viewed the footage I'm not quite sure how the linesman has reached his decision to tell the referee to issue a red card. Seems to me to be more guesswork on the basis of the Crewe players reaction.

[Dreams of 1995]

Take a look at Roberts' tackle vs Wolves yesterday for a "red card tackle". The ref only gave him a yellow.

That same game he sent Harlee Dean off for what seemed like a bit of a "mans push" on Jota who subsequently fell over like a sack of spuds despite previously squaring up to a 6 foot odd centre half. Dean was given a 2nd yellow. It was a stupid decision by Dean to get involved but a clear indicator in what is at the forefront of a referees' mind.

Eddie Howe recently came out and said there could well be a case of referees trying to be too smart, in respect to spotting simulation. That certainly could have been the case for Bennett's red card vs Wigan. I think most people who play football would say he was avoiding the tackle and not trying to win any sort of advantage by diving over it like he did.

Maybe this also transfers to off the ball incidents. A referee is heaped praise when he sees a piece of violent conduct off the ball and, as seems to be the case these days, referees love the spotlight. If a player falls over and screams loud enough the referee tends to send off the "aggressor". In my memory I can only ever remember Clattenburg looking at a player falling over dramatically in a situation like this and not being fooled.

It should be remembered that it is a mans game. They aren't children and they go out to play a contact sport. I can understand clubs' concerns of potentially losing a 60m asset because of a terrible challenge but it has got to a point now where the line between foul play and a "manly disagreement" has been warped. A few pushes and shoves and a square up isn't attractive and shouldn't be promoted but it certainly shouldn't be greeted with red cards as it is today. The game has gone down a horrible path and, judging by the pundits' reaction (whose job it is to big up everything by the way) it's only going to get worse.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

7 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Whatever happened to putting full backs on posts at corners? Crewe's second and third goals would have been prevented had we done this.

I think it would have left us short of players to actually deal with the corner itself.

[arbitro]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I think it would have left us short of players to actually deal with the corner itself.

We don't do it when we have eleven on the pitch though. It's a trend I see so often in professional football.

[JacknOry]

Chance for rankin-costello to be involved?

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

34 minutes ago, arbitro said:

We don't do it when we have eleven on the pitch though. It's a trend I see so often in professional football.

Back in the Stone Age when I played full back you always had the full back nearest to the corner covering the goal post.  The guy you were marking would be taking the corner. Everybody else marked up. The goalkeepers starting position was also nearer  to the back post so he could almost always move forward quickly to meet the ball.  Nowadays they just stand in the middle watching play.

It's like the trend for bringing all eleven players back to defend corners and the other trend to have right footers on the left wing and vice versa. I don't get either of those.

[arbitro]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Back in the Stone Age when I played full back you always had the full back nearest to the corner covering the goal post.  The goalkeepers starting position was also nearer  to the back post so he could almost always move forward quickly to meet the ball.  Nowadays they just stand in the middle watching play.

It's like the trend for bringing all eleven players back to defend corners and the other trend to have right footers on the left wing and vice versa. I don't get either of those.

That's how I remember it too TS. I played predominantly right full back and along with the left back we covered the posts. Then it was man to man marking and if we conceded it was simply because somebody didn't do their jobs properly. Now we have 'zonal' marking where players mark space and pick up players as they come into their zones. It's almost as if the coaches are getting ridiculous in their endeavour to come up with something novel.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, arbitro said:

That's how I remember it too TS. I played predominantly right full back and along with the left back we covered the posts. Then it was man to man marking and if we conceded it was simply because somebody didn't do their jobs properly. Now we have 'zonal' marking where players mark space and pick up players as they come into their zones. It's almost as if the coaches are getting ridiculous in their endeavour to come up with something novel.

I remember playing in a game where there was a gale blowing down the pitch. I was playing right back and I was up against a very good left winger. He played for the Manchester Industrial League inter league team so I had my hands full. In the second half he was bending low corners into my goal post with the outside of his left foot, using the gale to increase the bend. I managed to clear a couple of attempts away but he eventually got one past me when I miss kicked a real bender !

I'm not a fan of zonal marking either. 

[AggyBlue]

3 hours ago, JHRover said:

The most annoying thing for me is that 9 times out of 10 a linesman won't give anything. They are instructed to leave it all to the referee, even basic decisions such as throw ins we're increasingly seeing the linesman keep his flag down and await direction from the referee before sticking his flag up. Then all of a sudden this bloke decides that he's going to make a massive call by telling his mate to give a red card out.

Increasingly rare these days that a linesman will award a penalty or other major decisions in games.

 

The linesman in this case was in fact a lineswoman

[the original david brent]

1 hour ago, renrag said:

Only saw it on tv but the woman appeared to be on the Nuttall Street touchline, whilst the incident happened near to the other official on the Riverside

Correct - the female assistant referee was on the jack walker side and had nothing to do with the decision 

[Vinjay]

2 hours ago, AggyBlue said:

The linesman in this case was in fact a lineswoman

Are you sure? Might have been gender neutral. 

[bazza]

5 hours ago, AggyBlue said:

The linesman in this case was in fact a lineswoman

Male or female, the term is linesman. Actually they are now called assistant referees.

Same as a chairman who should be referred to as Mr Chairman or Madam Chairman instead of being called a piece of furniture.

After all we are all human aren't we. No huwomen.  P C Brigade gone mad!

 

[Guest]

On 12/5/2017 at 01:22, JHRover said:

We're going to have to be able to deal with Bennett's absence.

I think Bennett's social media persona buys him a few brownie points that would otherwise see him as an average player for us. Getting sent off is becoming an irresponsible habit of his. I think there are few hyperbolic views on him as a player, but I'm not so bothered that he's missing from the team, particularly with Conway coming back.

[Dreams of 1995]

13 hours ago, Phil T said:

I think Bennett's social media persona buys him a few brownie points that would otherwise see him as an average player for us. Getting sent off is becoming an irresponsible habit of his. I think there are few hyperbolic views on him as a player, but I'm not so bothered that he's missing from the team, particularly with Conway coming back.

You must be watching a different Bennett and Conway to me then if you think that.

[blueboy3333]

14 hours ago, Phil T said:

I think Bennett's social media persona buys him a few brownie points that would otherwise see him as an average player for us. Getting sent off is becoming an irresponsible habit of his. I think there are few hyperbolic views on him as a player, but I'm not so bothered that he's missing from the team, particularly with Conway coming back.

I like Bennett because of his work-rate, his desire and his ability to get the team closing down and up the pitch. He leads by example.   If all our midfield were all like Whittingham we'd never leave the edge of our own box.  Bennett is not really the creative type but then Mowbray doesn't really believe in too much creativity. His teams are functional and in that regard Bennett is the perfect Mowbray player. Surely your issue should be with Mowbray for picking him?

I've never seen his 'social media persona' but his sendings off have been idiotic for a man of his experience. I hope he's been heavily fined.