[Archived] Crewe - FA Cup (Again!)

[RoverCanada]

Seems a bit unfair to criticise Bennett for two red cards when it's at least arguable that both were undeserved.

He got 4 yellow cards in 29 appearances last year, and 5 yellow cards in 24 appearances with Rovers the year before that. Hardly a player out of control and I doubt this is a new trend.

edit: In fact, those are the first red cards of his entire career. Don't let recency bias cloud your judgement of his overall playing conduct.

[blueboy3333]

2 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

Don't let recency bias cloud your judgement of his overall playing conduct.

He's had two sendings off in recent weeks.  Both were probably deserved and both were easily avoidable. Nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with his conduct in recent weeks. What he's done before is irrelevant because that won't get him a reprieve from a 4 match ban. I like him and he'd be one of the 1st names on the team sheet but he isn't above criticism.

[RoverCanada]

19 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

He's had two sendings off in recent weeks.  Both were probably deserved and both were easily avoidable. Nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with his conduct in recent weeks. What he's done before is irrelevant because that won't get him a reprieve from a 4 match ban. I like him and he'd be one of the 1st names on the team sheet but he isn't above criticism.

"Nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with his conduct in recent weeks" - haha, hence my specific reference to 'recency bias'.

"Probably deserved and easily avoidable" seems quite debatable to me... One was for a 'dive' where he was trying to avoid a reckless tackle, and the other for a tangling of feet where there's no clear evidence of what actually happened. Obviously he's not above criticism, but the very subject of criticism is highly debatable.

I suppose I took more issue with Phil T saying "becoming an irresponsible habit of his", while I'd argue these red cards are merely unfortunate outliers.

In sum, I don't think Bennett's red cards should be extrapolated, hence why I'm citing his playing history. Do you really think Bennett's suddenly become an irresponsible, reckless player based on two arguable red cards?

[blueboy3333]

2 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

Do you really think Bennett's suddenly become an irresponsible, reckless player based on two arguable red cards?

I didn't say he had. I think his red cards were deserved and they were both avoidable. I rate him so I now think the team will suffer.

You could have used the 'recency bias' argument after his first red card. When does it become a pattern? 2 red cards in a few weeks? 3? 4?

[arbitro]

44 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

He's had two sendings off in recent weeks.  Both were probably deserved and both were easily avoidable. Nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with his conduct in recent weeks. What he's done before is irrelevant because that won't get him a reprieve from a 4 match ban. I like him and he'd be one of the 1st names on the team sheet but he isn't above criticism.

His second yellow at Wigan was extremely harsh although his first one was justified. On Sunday I thought he was again hard done to although I accept the inconclusive decision due to lack of hard evidence.

All cards are avoidable but then there wouldn't be any tackling or physical contact. So many yellow cards are now for slightly mis timed challenges. To be honest I was more annoyed with his indiscipline after the Sheff Wednesday game last season when comments he made to the referee got him a red card when the final whistle had gone.

I think he will be a big miss over such a busy period although I doubt Mowbray would have picked him in all four games anyway.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, arbitro said:

To be honest I was more annoyed with his indiscipline after the Sheff Wednesday game last season when comments he made to the referee got him a red card when the final whistle had gone.

I don't remember that one. I think we can now safely discount 'recency bias'. Bennett has form for indiscipline. IMO his tackle and later dive at Wigan were idiotic. Moving his foot towards the player when they are tangled on the floor last weekend was equally stupid. That young kid for Crewe was a bit too smart for him.

[RoverCanada]

Ah, fair, forgot about the Sheffield Wednesday game and it's was awarded outside  of the game so it wasn't listed when I took a look.

Still don't think there's much to read into his red cards this year but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that...

[Bigdoggsteel]

Dack, Mulgrew, Smallwood and Antonnsson all need to be rested for this. 

[RV Blue]

Raya

Nyambe Ward Wharton Williams

Travis Harper Tomlinson Antonsson

Graham Nuttall

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, RV Blue said:

Raya

Nyambe Ward Wharton Williams

Travis Harper Tomlinson Antonsson

Graham Nuttall

I might put Caddis in for Nyambe. Maybe even push Nyambe out wide right. Conway for Antonnson ?

How badly do we want to win this ? We owe them one but we don't want to get derailed with vendettas.

[blueboy3333]

Tricky one for Mogga. He'll want to win and get in the 3rd round. I don't see him going for two kids in central midfield so Smallwood might have to play. Two up front seems likely again, he might even go 3 at the back with wing backs.

 

 

[RV Blue]

3 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I might put Caddis in for Nyambe. Maybe even push Nyambe out wide right. Conway for Antonnson ?

How badly do we want to win this ? We owe them one but we don't want to get derailed with vendettas.

Forgot about Caddis ?, yeah he would be playing. I was thinking that Conway might need a rest after playing his first 90 in a few weeks & we don't really have anyone else.

[philipl]

Crewe ominously just above Div 4 drop zone. Set up for a pratt fall for us.

Very much hope we get through because Hull will be a good measuring stick for where we are now.

[Guest]

On 08/12/2017 at 12:00, RoverCanada said:

Do you really think Bennett's suddenly become an irresponsible, reckless player based on two arguable red cards?

The club haven't appealed against those red cards, have they? I think that says everything.

I think Bennett is decent for the team, in his own way. I can tell he loves the game, and wears his heart on his sleeve when he's on the pitch, but he needs to be more intelligent when it comes to knowing when he's going to scupper the team by his own actions. Simple stuff, such as if you're on a yellow, don't blatantly play for a free kick, etc. Just tone the aggression down, and be aware of the dangers of a second yellow, and so on.

Looks like Tomlinson is going to start on Tuesday night in the replay, and based on what I watched yesterday, deservedly so. Harper will be back available, too, so it could be a very young midfield pairing out there. Hopefully they can show their potential.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Phil T said:

The club haven't appealed against those red cards, have they? I think that says everything.

I think Bennett is decent for the team, in his own way. I can tell he loves the game, and wears his heart on his sleeve when he's on the pitch, but he needs to be more intelligent when it comes to knowing when he's going to scupper the team by his own actions. Simple stuff, such as if you're on a yellow, don't blatantly play for a free kick, etc. Just tone the aggression down, and be aware of the dangers of a second yellow, and so on.

Looks like Tomlinson is going to start on Tuesday night in the replay, and based on what I watched yesterday, deservedly so. Harper will be back available, too, so it could be a very young midfield pairing out there. Hopefully they can show their potential.

They were poor red cards, especially the one at Wigan. The fact that the club hasn't bothered to appeal tells me more about modern day football than anything else.

[arbitro]

41 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

They were poor red cards, especially the one at Wigan. The fact that the club hasn't bothered to appeal tells me more about modern day football than anything else.

It's quite ridiculous that you can't appeal against yellow cards when they clearly are wrong. I'm sure that Rovers would have appealed Bennetts second yellow at Wigan had they been allowed to. When I was active the referee could have a yellow card rescinded if he was prepared to admit he got it wrong but the FA stopped that. I did hear though that they are considering changing this due to the number of yellow cards which have been wrongly meted out.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I was just reading in today's paper that our near neighbours have been the beneficiaries of 3 of the first half red cards this season. There have been 8 in total. I wonder what Dyche makes of that ?

The first sending  off I ever saw in the flesh was at Turf Moor in Oct 63. Our  Mike England and Andy Lochead had been at it all game and the young and raw England just lost it and flattened Lochead. If Lochead had have been a boxer he'd have needed a glove on his head, do you get the picture ? He was a nasty piece of work. I'd been watching Rovers for about 18 months by then.

The next one was at Old Trafford in Nov 1965. Funnily enough England was involved in that one as well. He'd been having a running battle with Harry Gregg the Utd goalie and when we got a corner Gregg came running out and punched England smack on the side of the head before the ball had arrived. Fair play to Gregg, he just carried on walking and sent himself off !

The point I'm making is sending off's arrived about every two years and they were for serious foul play. Not like today were you can get two in a game were nothing really happens and nobody gets hurt.

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, arbitro said:

It's quite ridiculous that you can't appeal against yellow cards when they clearly are wrong.

I'm not sure either at Wigan were clearly wrong.

The first was certainly deserved for the late challenge. I don't think there can be much debate against that. The second seemed like a straight case of simulation. I mentioned on the podcast that I'd watched it a few times, and the guy doesn't touch Bennett. Bennett dives out of the way, but if it's clear that there's no contact (even if you avoid it), and especially if you make a meal of it, which he did, then I've got no sympathy, really.

If the club isn't appealing on any count, then the bottom line is that they think it won't come to anything. Do bans get extended if you lose an appeal, or am I imagining that?

[arbitro]

Just now, Phil T said:

I'm not sure either at Wigan were clearly wrong.

The first was certainly deserved for the late challenge. I don't think there can be much debate against that. The second seemed like a straight case of simulation. I mentioned on the podcast that I'd watched it a few times, and the guy doesn't touch Bennett. Bennett dives out of the way, but if it's clear that there's no contact (even if you avoid it), and especially if you make a meal of it, which he did, then I've got no sympathy, really.

If the club isn't appealing on any count, then the bottom line is that they think it won't come to anything. Do bans get extended if you lose an appeal, or am I imagining that?

It's subjective. I think Bennett took evasive action to avoid injury therefore in my opinion he wasn't attempting to deceive the referee. But my point is that the FA won't allow any appeals against any yellow card which just can't be right. Last week a Bournemouth player was cautioned for simulation when it should have been a penalty. It was his fifth yellow but he had to serve an unjust one game ban due to the restrictive regulations of the FA.

If the FA consider the appeal 'frivolous' then they can add extra games to the suspension.

[jim mk2]

45 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I was just reading in today's paper that our near neighbours have been the beneficiaries of 3 of the first half red cards this season. There have been 8 in total. I wonder what Dyche makes of that ?

The first sending  off I ever saw in the flesh was at Turf Moor in Oct 63. Our  Mike England and Andy Lochead had been at it all game and the young and raw England just lost it and flattened Lochead. If Lochead had have been a boxer he'd have needed a glove on his head, do you get the picture ? He was a nasty piece of work. I'd been watching Rovers for about 18 months by then.

The next one was at Old Trafford in Nov 1965. Funnily enough England was involved in that one as well. He'd been having a running battle with Harry Gregg the Utd goalie and when we got a corner Gregg came running out and punched England smack on the side of the head before the ball had arrived. Fair play to Gregg, he just carried on walking and sent himself off !

The point I'm making is sending off's arrived about every two years and they were for serious foul play. Not like today were you can get two in a game were nothing really happens and nobody gets hurt.

 

Best (or worst) one I remember was Mike Ferguson elbowing the Coventry left back (Dietmar Bruck?) in the face right in front of the dugout (and the referee) in the big promotion match at Ewood in 1966-67 season. 

It wasn't a good day. Fergie sent off and Coventry won 2-1 and we never got that near the top flight again for another 25 years 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Phil T said:

I'm not sure either at Wigan were clearly wrong.

The first was certainly deserved for the late challenge. I don't think there can be much debate against that. The second seemed like a straight case of simulation. I mentioned on the podcast that I'd watched it a few times, and the guy doesn't touch Bennett. Bennett dives out of the way, but if it's clear that there's no contact (even if you avoid it), and especially if you make a meal of it, which he did, then I've got no sympathy, really.

If the club isn't appealing on any count, then the bottom line is that they think it won't come to anything. Do bans get extended if you lose an appeal, or am I imagining that?

I've jumped out of the way of heavy tackles back in the day. It was known as " hurdling the tackle " then. Normally it would be play on , or the ref might have a word with the tackler. The game has got itself into a right old state with cards. I think the introduction of the " sin bin" as in Rugby League is long overdue.  10 or 15 minutes out of the game would fit the crime for lots of offences more than a red card.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

 

Best (or worst) one I remember was Mike Ferguson elbowing the Coventry left back (Dietmar Bruck?) in the face right in front of the dugout (and the referee) in the big promotion match at Ewood in 1966-67 season. 

It wasn't a good day. Fergie sent off and Coventry won 2-1 and we never got that near the top flight again for another 25 years 

I was there Jim. On the Riverside directly opposite . Bruck had been hacking at Fergie all the game with no protection from the ref and he just lost it and swung his arm back. From where I was I thought Bruck made a meal of it to be honest. Gamesmanship was just starting to creep into the game by then.

By the way we lost 1-0. 26,380 on that day.

Barton

Newton, Clayton, Sharples, Wilson

Ferguson, Joyce, Douglas, Hole

Darling, Connelly.

No sub that day which is strange. That team looks a bit lightweight up front nowadays.

[jim mk2]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I was there Jim. On the Riverside directly opposite . Bruck had been hacking at Fergie all the game with no protection from the ref and he just lost it and swung his arm back. From where I was I thought Bruck made a meal of it to be honest. Gamesmanship was just starting to creep into the game by then.

By the way we lost 1-0. 26,380 on that day.

Barton

Newton, Clayton, Sharples, Wilson

Ferguson, Joyce, Douglas, Hole

Darling, Connelly.

No sub that day which is strange. That team looks a bit lightweight up front nowadays.

 

 

Yes, 1-0. Memory fading. Bruck was a cheat, went over like he'd been hit by Cassius Clay. 

Remember the huge crowd, must have been 10,000 from Coventry. They were on the up then under Jimmy Hill,  new West Midlands motor industry booming while Lancashire textiles was in decline, the way the 2 clubs were going seemed so symbolic.

Did we finish fourth that season ? Wasn't a great Rovers side, don't know why it was so high. Joyce was poor, Darling inconsistent, Connelly past his prime, Sharples was slow and Barton was a bit of a joke really. 

Still had the great Sir Keith, and a declining Ronnie and Duggle though

 

[AllRoverAsia]

35 minutes ago, Phil T said:

I'm not sure either at Wigan were clearly wrong.

The first was certainly deserved for the late challenge. I don't think there can be much debate against that. The second seemed like a straight case of simulation. I mentioned on the podcast that I'd watched it a few times, and the guy doesn't touch Bennett. Bennett dives out of the way, but if it's clear that there's no contact (even if you avoid it), and especially if you make a meal of it, which he did, then I've got no sympathy, really.

If the club isn't appealing on any count, then the bottom line is that they think it won't come to anything. Do bans get extended if you lose an appeal, or am I imagining that?

I heard you on the podcast re Bennet's second yellow at Wigan.

You were wrong then as you are now.

Bennet avoided a leg breaker at speed by getting out of the way of impact and saved the Wigan BSH a red. Imo.

[AllRoverAsia]

2 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 

 

Yes, 1-0. Memory fading. Bruck was a cheat, went over like he'd been hit by Cassius Clay. 

Remember the huge crowd, must have been 10,000 from Coventry. They were on the up then under Jimmy Hill,  new West Midlands motor industry booming while Lancashire textiles was in decline, the way the 2 clubs were going seemed so symbolic.

Did we finish fourth that season ? Wasn't a great Rovers side, don't know why it was so high. Joyce was poor, Darling inconsistent, Connelly past his prime, Sharples was slow and Barton was a bit of a joke really. 

Still had the great Sir Keith, and a declining Ronnie and Duggle though

 

I remember Fergie kicking the water bucket.

I was upstairs in the Riverside but towards the BBE.