World Cup 2018

[scotchrover]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Find these 2 comments incredible, not sure if they are reactions to their respective performances in the last 2 days, but they are crazy. Far better player? Theres no way that anyone could argue that either is "a far better player." And doubts that Messi is able to handle the pressure?!  The awards hes won, the trophies hes won, the important goals hes scored, how can you question that?

Neither of them have naturally replicated their club form amongst national teams that otherwise are far inferior to other teams. Ronaldo won the Euros, Messi has got to quite a few finals including the last World Cup in which he got player of the tournament.

Its a flip of a coin decision whose better, personal preference, I prefer Messi but certainly would never argue that theres anything but a minimal difference.

Quite right. People also seem ignorant to the fact that Ronaldo was a work in progress in England, moving from winger to goalscorer, only got 20 goals or over once I think, and stepped up a couple of levels to one of the all time greats once he moved to La Liga. So I dont understand the obsession about Messi being able to do it in England, when Ronaldos career in this country has been greatly surpassed since he moved to La Liga.

Messi has played in La Liga all his life. The only time he’s done anything is when he’s played at Barcelona, against teams in La Liga. With all due respect, the majority of teams in La Liga practically roll over when they play against Real Madrid and Barcelona. When he’s played for his country, he’s done very little to note, in comparison  

In my eyes, Ronaldo was pretty much the finished product when he went over there. The fact he’s gone over there and scored more than a goal game tells you that. Could he do that over here? I highly doubt it. 

The reason for the obsession of considering whether Messi could play in England is the fact that the standard of the league is more intense and physical, than over there. I highly doubt he would be able to. 

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, scotchrover said:

Messi has played in La Liga all his life. The only time he’s done anything is when he’s played at Barcelona, against teams in La Liga. With all due respect, the majority of teams in La Liga practically roll over when they play against Real Madrid and Barcelona. When he’s played for his country, he’s done very little to note, in comparison  

In my eyes, Ronaldo was pretty much the finished product when he went over there. The fact he’s gone over there and scored more than a goal game tells you that. Could he do that over here? I highly doubt it. 

The reason for the obsession of considering whether Messi could play in England is the fact that the standard of the league is more intense and physical, than over there. I highly doubt he would be able to. 

But whether Messi could replicate his La Liga form over here is irrelevant because Ronaldo hasnt proven that he could consistently score the ridicilious amount of goals that he does in La Liga in the Premier League either, as I said he only scored over 20 once. I personally think they both could score over 30 consistently over here but its a moot point because it implies that Ronaldo has already done so, he hasnt.

You mention that he hasnt done anything internationally in comparison, but in the 2 world cups, in 2010 he wasnt the player he haa been in the last 8 years and was managed by Maradona, at the last world cup he got player of the tournament and to the final, hes got to Copa America finals and is their record goalscorer. But Argentina and Portugal arent elite International teams so they are going to be somewhat hindered, and the tournaments are irregular.

You say that hes only proved it in La Liga but thats not blatantly not true. Youve forgotten that both players have triple figures in the Champions League, have multiple medals, and the 3rd top scorer has 71. They both prove in the best club competition season on season that they are a level above the other world class players. They are 2 of the best ever.

The Premier League debate will always be hypothetical but I refuse to believe that he wouldnt score regularly against Huddersfield, Southampton, Cardiff, West Ham, Bournemouth, Watford and Leicester. But hes hardly a flat track bully as hes proven in the Champions League. Thats where hes shown hes a class apart along with Ronaldo. Who also hasnt proved he could score the numbers he gets in La Liga consistently over here, which is ignored.

[bob fleming]

I’d take Messi over Ronaldo. Better team player.

He’d get the most out of Dack I reckon. Plus Charlie can teach him how to score pens. All in all, it’s a no brainer for the little fella.

Both have been unbelievable for years. Truly brilliant. Stick them both in any league you like. They’d stand out. The very definition of World Class.

[Audax]

Senegal is in this tournament too.

Back to Nigeria, their manager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gernot_Rohr

Gernot Rohr.

I hope the Super Eagles, Nigeria can turn this around. Again, I think Croatia, experienced,  it seems like they've been to every World Cup since David Sukor, since '98, really needed to get something. 3 points now, 4 usually gets a team through I think. Maybe not always.

A typical stodgy performance by Nigeria. A non-cohesive game plan. Seems common with them and unfortunately, they seemed to show their #48 FIFA ranking. Not too good really while Croatia is #20, Iceland,  #22, Argentina, #5.

In either 2010 or 2014, I'm pretty sure, Nigeria was in a group with Argentina as well.

Nigeria has played well in the African Cup of Nations, has done well in the Olympics, for whatever that's worth.... but this was a bit typical today of their World Cup appearances.

Won the African Cup of Nations at least 3 times, last in 2013:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_Cup_of_Nations

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Audax

[philipl]

Thus far been an excellent World Cup for European nations. Just wait for you know who to blow it tomorrow...

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

15 hours ago, Audax said:

The Peru attacker was in the box and took his shot, he could have taken a dive. I really appreciate that some teams in general terms, don't pull these kinds of shenanigans.  Peru is certainly putting up an effort.

I've always liked Peru. I think it might be the shirt, it's unique. I was watching highlights of Peru v Scotland 1978 yesterday on the Internet. What a player Teofilo Cubillas was, he scored two fantastic goals in that game. The first one was an absolute rocket into the top corner, the second was a free kick using a technique I've never seen another player use.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[roverandout]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

Thus far been an excellent World Cup for European nations. Just wait for you know who to blow it tomorrow...

Wont happen

[scotchrover]

9 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

But whether Messi could replicate his La Liga form over here is irrelevant because Ronaldo hasnt proven that he could consistently score the ridicilious amount of goals that he does in La Liga in the Premier League either, as I said he only scored over 20 once. I personally think they both could score over 30 consistently over here but its a moot point because it implies that Ronaldo has already done so, he hasnt.

You mention that he hasnt done anything internationally in comparison, but in the 2 world cups, in 2010 he wasnt the player he haa been in the last 8 years and was managed by Maradona, at the last world cup he got player of the tournament and to the final, hes got to Copa America finals and is their record goalscorer. But Argentina and Portugal arent elite International teams so they are going to be somewhat hindered, and the tournaments are irregular.

You say that hes only proved it in La Liga but thats not blatantly not true. Youve forgotten that both players have triple figures in the Champions League, have multiple medals, and the 3rd top scorer has 71. They both prove in the best club competition season on season that they are a level above the other world class players. They are 2 of the best ever.

The Premier League debate will always be hypothetical but I refuse to believe that he wouldnt score regularly against Huddersfield, Southampton, Cardiff, West Ham, Bournemouth, Watford and Leicester. But hes hardly a flat track bully as hes proven in the Champions League. Thats where hes shown hes a class apart along with Ronaldo. Who also hasnt proved he could score the numbers he gets in La Liga consistently over here, which is ignored.

It’s not irrelevant though. To be world truely world class, you need to be able to perform in any situation, at any given time. Messi hasn’t done this for his country, without his Barcelona team around him. Therefore, that leads me to conclude he couldn’t do it over here. 

Additionally, you talk about him not being the player he had been and use the excuse about Maradona managing. Again, world class players are able to perform under any circumstance. Compare this, Ronaldo, who probably hasn’t had anything like the team Messi has had around him internationally, but still won the last international tournement, mostly by himself. Also, saying that Argentina’s side isn’t full of quality right now is laughable.

The debate about both leagues is summed up the TV money in the Premier League and La Liga. Spain gets nowhere near the kind of money we do over here, for top flight football. Can you really imagine him scoring goals against Neil Warnock’s Cardiff or Mark Hughes’ Southampton? He’d be flatten within the first 5 minutes. The physical nature’s of England is well reknowned. I highly doubt he’d be walking goals in. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by scotchrover

[JacknOry]

Messi has missed four of his last seven penalties for club and country. I find that a pretty astonishing stat and it will probably start affecting his mentality and confidence taking them down the line. If I was Argentina I would be letting someone else take them for a while.

[islander200]

Serbia even money in bookies have to fancy some of that

[Ladyboys of Bank Top]

8 minutes ago, scotchrover said:

Can you really imagine him scoring goals against Neil Warnock’s Cardiff or Mark Hughes’ Southampton? He’d be flatten within the first 5 minutes. The physical nature’s of England is well reknowned. I highly doubt he’d be walking goals in. 

Brilliant! I thought you were serious yesterday when you called him  bang average. Neil Warnock!? Well played sir?

[scotchrover]

Edit

Edited June 17, 2018 by scotchrover

[scotchrover]

2 hours ago, philipl said:

Thus far been an excellent World Cup for European nations. Just wait for you know who to blow it tomorrow...

Just thinking that myself. Someone said we’ve only one of a handful of our opening games too, recently...

[Ladyboys of Bank Top]

Just now, scotchrover said:

You’re not telling me he walk the league over here, just like he would in Spain are you? ?

He's walked every league he has played in if you count the Champions League. He's left rough cynical Italian defenders on their arse for the last 10 years. He's done the same to Ramos and Godin. He's been kicked from pillar to post all his career. WTF could Sol Bamba do to him that he hasn't already faced-?

[scotchrover]

Just now, Ladyboys of Bank Top said:

He's walked every league he has played in if you count the Champions League. He's left rough cynical Italian defenders on their arse for the last 10 years. He's done the same to Ramos and Godin. He's been kicked from pillar to post all his career. WTF could Sol Bamba do to him that he hasn't already faced-?

So why can’t he do it for country then, if he’s so world class? 

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Can't make my mind up with Messi. Is he the ultimate professional in that he only performs for those who pay his wages ie Barcelona or is it that he wants to perform too much for his country that he can't just relax and play.

[Ladyboys of Bank Top]

Just now, scotchrover said:

So why can’t he do it for country then, if he’s so world class? 

He's one of the best players that's ever played the game. This is agreed by everybody in the world who has ever watched a game of football. The End. 

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Just now, Ladyboys of Bank Top said:

He's one of the best players that's ever played the game. This is agreed by everybody in the world who has ever watched a game of football. The End. 

except Scotchrover

[matt83]

15 minutes ago, scotchrover said:

Just thinking that myself. Someone said we’ve only one of a handful of our opening games too, recently...

Since 1986 won 2. (1986 L 1-0 vs Portugal, 1990 D 1-1 vs Ireland, 1998 W 2-1 vs Tunisia, 2002 D 1-1 vs Sweden, 2006 W 1-0 vs Paraguay, 2010 D 1-1 vs USA, 2014 L 2-1 vs Italy)

Considering every game other than Italy was very winnable that’s a pretty poor record.

[Audax]

Sweden and England draw a lot even if one points out that England should be stronger. Sweden also won 3rd place in 1994, actually they were very good.  http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/usa1994/teams/team=43970/matches.html

Italy lost their opening match in 1994 to Ireland, Portugal has been decent as well.  So, to look back and say Ireland should have been a very winnable game, I don't know if that is so. Ireland was very good that year. They also drew Netherlands.. Ireland only crashed out to a loss to the host nation, Italy.

Over that same time period I do see Italy racked up 4 wins, so yes, that is more impressive.

http://eloratings.net/Italy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Audax

[frosty]

11 hours ago, scotchrover said:

With all due respect, the majority of teams in La Liga practically roll over when they play against Real Madrid and Barcelona.

That's not true though, is it? Real Madrid got fewer points than Spurs last season. Don't let Sky Sports/Talksport or whoever it is spoonfeed you your opinions. 

The PL from 7th down last season seemed extremely low on quality. And that's with teams like Bournemouth being able to spend £25m on one player and Palace spending almost £60m on two players without anyone batting an eyelid. 

1 hour ago, scotchrover said:

Can you really imagine him scoring goals against Neil Warnock’s Cardiff or Mark Hughes’ Southampton? 

Are you serious? I'm a big Hughes fan but his Stoke side shipped loads of goals. Warnock's a great Championship manager but he's always near the bottom of the PL. 

So considering he's done it v Ferguson's United, Mourinho's Real Madrid, Allegri's Milan and Juve, Ancelotti's PSG, Guardiola's Bayern and City, Simeone's Atletico, Conte's.........actually, I'll stop there, can't believe I'm having to try and justify Lionel Messi being able to score against Cardiff and Southampton.

[K-Hod]

First Ronaldo is over rated, now Messi isn’t that good?

I’m all for different opinions, but there was me thinking I’d be abstaining from alcohol today...

[Mattyblue]

Real Madrid had a poor league campaign, but generally this past decade, they and Barca have demolished teams repeatedly, particularly at home. Both Messi and Ronaldo have cashed in. 

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, scotchrover said:

It’s not irrelevant though. To be world truely world class, you need to be able to perform in any situation, at any given time. Messi hasn’t done this for his country, without his Barcelona team around him. Therefore, that leads me to conclude he couldn’t do it over here. 

Additionally, you talk about him not being the player he had been and use the excuse about Maradona managing. Again, world class players are able to perform under any circumstance. Compare this, Ronaldo, who probably hasn’t had anything like the team Messi has had around him internationally, but still won the last international tournement, mostly by himself. Also, saying that Argentina’s side isn’t full of quality right now is laughable.

The debate about both leagues is summed up the TV money in the Premier League and La Liga. Spain gets nowhere near the kind of money we do over here, for top flight football. Can you really imagine him scoring goals against Neil Warnock’s Cardiff or Mark Hughes’ Southampton? He’d be flatten within the first 5 minutes. The physical nature’s of England is well reknowned. I highly doubt he’d be walking goals in. 

Firstly I feel that you are ignoring what he has done for his country, and perhaps overestimating what Ronaldo has done at the same time for his country. Granted Ronaldo did win the last Euros, he got 3 goals, they didnt win a game after 90 minutes until I think the Semi Finals, and he went off really early into the final. He hardly dragged his team kicking and screaming. At the last World Cup, Messi got to the final in a poor team, getting player of the tournament, Ronaldo and Portugal went home in the Group Stage. Ronaldo is his countrys record goalscorer, so is Messi, Messi has got to multiple Copa America finals I believe too.

I think youre also overestimating the rest of the Argentina side over the last 10 years, its not very good aside from Messi and its strikers.

I think your point about Cardiff and Southampton is a bit ridiculous, I presume you cant have seen that much of him, hes far tougherto bully than youd expect, as pointed out he plays v top centre backs like Godin and Ramos who dont stop from toughing him up. If you think he can play so well v teams like Atletico and Real Madrid, but would struggle against Sol Bamba and Maya Yoshida then I think you are mistaken.

My argument isnt that Messi is better, its that both are almost inseperable and both are undoubtedly 2 of the best of all time. Just look at the numbers from both, year on year.

[Husky]

4 hours ago, philipl said:

Thus far been an excellent World Cup for European nations. Just wait for you know who to blow it tomorrow...

Serbia and Switzerland have a good chance of blowing it today. Taking the pressure off ?