World Cup 2018

[DE.]

I should note that whilst my above post sounds a little negative, it's worth remembering that we only really started playing our current system during this tournament. For whatever reason we didn't play this way during the qualifiers, hence the low expectations going into the world cup. If we stick with this system and work on improving the parts that aren't quite working there's no reason we can't be much stronger come Euro 2020. There is a framework here and we need to stick to it. 

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, Wing Wizard Windy Miller said:

England's biggest problem is that we lack intelligent footballers. You need a mix of technical athletes (which we have plenty) and intelligence -football intelligence.  They are trained to do this and that but can't do anything outside the box or react to formation changes quickly.  A Modric in the middle and a Beardsley up front would do wonders for this side. 

This nails it for me but with a young raw side and rebuilding job that's the price you pay I suppose.  You could even stick a John Terry in there and a Shearer up top and they'd probably have strolled to the World Cup win.  Sadly it doesn't work like that and we've had guys with good football brains in abundance in recent times, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham to name a few, even Rooney but along with them comes the ego's, the it's all about me mentality and maybe trying to overdo things to live up to their tags.

For me the biggest contributor last night was Southgate was tactically outdone in the second half but chances are Croatia might have pinched a goal anyway even if we'd continued to dominate but failed to get another one or two.

To be honest i'd rather go out like that than penalties in the end.

[benhben]

Amazing to get to a semi final. Never thought id see that for many years. I had England to go out at the first knockout game this tournament, so we far surpassed my expectations. I doubt we will ever see a draw like that again with almost all the big sides in the same side of the draw. Its been a crazy tournament. 

Reflecting on England my thoughts are in no particular order.

1. Trippier and McGuire were our best players. Their stock has gone up massively. McGuire would be a great signing for an Arenal or Liverpool. suspect there will be interest. 

2. Not convinced by our tactics of 5-3-2 or 3-5-2. For large parts of the tournament, Panama and Sweeden aside, i didnt think we looked particularly good from open play. Midfield was overrun often with Henderson trying to cover large areas alone and a big gap to the defence and attack. We often finished games 5-1-4

3. England are desperate for some attacking quality. Lingard and Sterling run and run and commit defenders but they will never be playmakers and lack compsure. If we could unearth a quality playmaker or someone to connect midfield to attack this side would be improved massively. Dack ;)? This needs to  be the focus for English player development, technique and creativity. 

4. Sterling gets a lot of critisism but the team needs him. He seriously lacks composure in the final third but he was the only player looking to run behind and commit defenders. Always shows for the ball. Rashford is hyped but hardly created anything when he came on last night. 

5. I am sure in the last 12 months England have won or got to the semi finals of almost every tournament form youth. Havent the Under 17s, U20s and U21s all won this year? If so the future looks bright, lets hope they get the game time they need to develop.

Nice to get some pride back in the national team. 

[AllRoverAsia]

Well I manned up and watched a lot of youtube highlights.

Kane really fluffed his lines on those 2 first half chances.

From a defending point of view both Croatia goals were poor, the second one especially was  a catalogue of errors.

Trippier's freekick was class, I wonder if he hurt himself in the celebratory slide where he looks as if a knee gets stuck in the turf maybe pulling on his groin.

The ITV post match summary was good, all spoke intelligently on football.

[roversfan99]

Gutted. Think its safe to say that the players and manager should be proud and that we didnt expect a semi final.

That said, I do think people are going a tiny bit overboard in terms of how much weve overachieved, in that you have to factor in the draw in the way you analyse meeting of expectations, and thats why I feel as gutted as I do, yes we may have had some great individuals in the past but we have a good team now and its as much the strength of your main rivals.

The group we had was possibly the easiest in that the 2 weak teams were particularly weak. Then the 3 knockout games, the first opponent were missing their best player and Sweden are really average. Croatia are a step up but even they arent one of the favourites so it is a big opportunity missed even if I am very proud.

Southgates perhaps benefitted from previous failures in lowering expectations and although im unconvinced by his decision making during a game some of the things hes done in general have been very impressive indeed so fair play to him.

Obviously I dont take for granted beating anyone based on recent tournament failures. Englands run to the semi finals has been a highlight of the best world cup ive seen.

On last night, thought Sterlings link up and hold up were terrific, Rashford was a really poor sub. Kane and Alli werent at it either. Maguire and Pickford brilliant again. Always felt Perisic was a threat coming in on to Walker and he was a class above. 

Experience and intelligence prevailed over energy and enthusiasm.

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Gutted. Think its safe to say that the players and manager should be proud and that we didnt expect a semi final.

That said, I do think people are going a tiny bit overboard in terms of how much weve overachieved, in that you have to factor in the draw in the way you analyse meeting of expectations, and thats why I feel as gutted as I do, yes we may have had some great individuals in the past but we have a good team now and its as much the strength of your main rivals.

The group we had was possibly the easiest in that the 2 weak teams were particularly weak. Then the 3 knockout games, the first opponent were missing their best player and Sweden are really average. Croatia are a step up but even they arent one of the favourites so it is a big opportunity missed even if I am very proud.

Southgates perhaps benefitted from previous failures in lowering expectations and although im unconvinced by his decision making during a game some of the things hes done in general have been very impressive indeed so fair play to him.

Obviously I dont take for granted beating anyone based on recent tournament failures. Englands run to the semi finals has been a highlight of the best world cup ive seen.

On last night, thought Sterlings link up and hold up were terrific, Rashford was a really poor sub. Kane and Alli werent at it either. Maguire and Pickford brilliant again. Always felt Perisic was a threat coming in on to Walker and he was a class above. 

Experience and intelligence prevailed over energy and enthusiasm.

Good post.

The upcoming Nations League with competitive games v Spain and Croatia arrive at a good time. They give Southgate the chance to try changes say at left back and in midfield and not to start with 3 players who play as if 10's, when not invisible. Also Kane needs a proper partner, with Sterling it simply does not gel and has been over tried.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 hours ago, Kamy100 said:

The first half was excellent but missing those chances cost us.  Croatia went in at half time knowing that they could/should have been out of the game.

Second half they just used their experience and know how to slowly take control of the game, they pressed us and we could not deal with it and whereas previously we were composed we started to lose the ball in dangerous areas and our full backs got pushed back so we were effectively playing a back 5.  Maybe Southgate could have looked at swopping to back 4 and playing with traditional wingers just to stop the Croatian full backs from coming forward. 

All in all this tournament has exceeded my expectations.  2 years ago we lost to Iceland and previous to that we played a brand of football that was outdated and made even poor teams look good against that.  Southgate has found a formula that we can use to go forward, these players can be the core for the next 4-6 years in addition you would hope that a few players from the excellent Under 17's and Under 20's with the likes of Foden, Sancho, Dujon Sterling, Cook, Solanke and Calvert-Lewin all showing promise in addition to other players who missed out because of injury like Joe Gomez we have a lot to be positive about given where we were after Euro 2016.

The other thing that this side have managed to do is bring back some national pride, their performances on the pitch and they way they and Southgate handled themselves off the pitch has made bought this often divided country together over the last 4 weeks and given us something positive/hopeful to cheer and that in itself is a huge achievement.

 

I thought we should have reverted to a back four when they started getting on top after about 50 minutes.  Not many teams can try to defend the last third for 30 odd minutes and survive. You certainly can't defend the penalty area for that amount of time unless you're very,very  lucky.

[Claytons Left Boot]

It would be nice to unearth some real talent from the current youth set ups over the next few years and blend them in to the team. Of the current team, I think only four have stood out, Pickford, Trippier, Maguire and Kane. For me, players like Alli, Lingard, Sterling, Rashford, Stones & Co have to step up to the mark and quickly. It’s ok playing well in the Premier League being surrounded by quality players from abroad, it’s another thing being able to do it whilst playing for England being surrounded by, shall we say, players only at your level. I am hopeful that one or two will both improve and mature over the next year or so. If they do, we should have the basis for a very good team. The next challenge will be to turn that very good team into an excellent one.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

Not sure about that, I think Modric is talking nonsense. I don't think anyone was taking Croatia lightly, and if they were motivated they certainly didn't show it in the first half. Their dominance in the second half came about simply due to a combination of tactical nous from their manager and a lack of response from ours. That said...

 

 

I have to agree with this. When Croatia began putting pressure on us we started punting it up the pitch like nothing had changed. Multiple times last night during the second half I noticed that nobody was showing for the ball, and if players are no longer willing to receive a pass the end result will ultimately either be a hoof or a loss of possession. It wasn't just the Croatia game either, in almost every game this tournament we've had a moment passing it around at the back where we've lost possession dangerously, mainly because of a lack of options passing wise. It's very noticeable that when the likes of Lingard, Alli and Sterling no longer want the ball the three of them will stay as far up the field as they can, leaving Henderson, Young and Tripper to try and find a way up the pitch (hint: not going to work very often). This is what led to Kane dropping back so far towards the end of the Colombia match. His three supporting attackers had lost their courage and didn't want possession anymore. 

This is why I don't buy into the media constantly pushing our "new identity". Yes we pass it around at the back, but it's led to as many dangerous situations in our own half this tournament as it has our opponents. We've created very few chances from open play. Most of our goals have come from penalties and set pieces, which contrasts against the supposed identity we've gained. We're a long way off establishing anything yet. At no point in this tournament did we ever look as dangerous as Croatia did against us in the second half last night - that's what we should be aspiring to. Once we can play like that then we can start crowing about new identities, philosophies, and whatever else. 

 

That's bang on.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Huge capitulation by England last night. That game was there for the taking big time. You should have had it wrapped up by half time, Croatia were out on their feet and looked drained of energy and confidence. 

A great achievement to get to the semis though regardless of opposition. You have to beat what's in front of you. A bit more calmness last night and you could have strolled to a final. It was very naive by Southgate to stick with 3 at the back.

Still, a very likeable team and manager. The first time I ever remember people in Ireland liking an English international side. 

Hopefully the rovers have a few more players in the team next time the world cup comes around. Or even just players at the world cup in general 

[AllRoverAsia]

Most disappointed that the younger ones, and indeed not so young, don't get to see England take the field in a WC Final. I hope they do in their lifetimes.

'66 is etched in the memory banks. My Dad, 2 brothers and me sat around a black and white tv. Dad giving us all a can of Tennants lager, the tall one with a bathing suit beauty on. I was only 14 so had to go for an early pee missing Haller's strike. Devastated with the German equaliser. Loving Rusians for ever from extra time. Hursts hat trick, he admits on the last one he was trying to lash it as far into the crowd as he could. Names never forgotten

[Bigdoggsteel]

I'd say Sunday will be a formality for the French. Can see 2 or 3 nil. I hope I'm wrong and Croatia can raise it one final time. 

[DE.]

19 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Huge capitulation by England last night. That game was there for the taking big time. You should have had it wrapped up by half time, Croatia were out on their feet and looked drained of energy and confidence. 

I think if we'd have scored a second in the first half we would have gone on to win the match. Going in at 1-0 is always dangerous for a team as defensively suspect as England, and Croatia looked rejuvenated in the second half. Once they realised how well their tactical switch was working their energy and confidence soared. It was a matter of time at that point as Southgate either wouldn't or couldn't react to what was happening. We did well to get to extra time and I can't help but think come Sunday Croatia may rue adding another unnecessary half an hour to one of their matches. 

[JHRover]

France expertly dealt with the Belgians who are better than Croatia so I expect them to win reasonably comfortably on Sunday. The way they ran the clock down in the last 30 minutes against Belgium was very impressive though not really nice to watch. We could have done with some of what they have vs Colombia and Croatia in the last 20 minutes.

Interesting that Croatia have reached the World Cup Final having only won 3 of their 6 games in 90 minutes and none in the knock out stages. 2x penalty shootout wins and last night looked like going that way too until a fortunate turn of events. Likewise England were a whisker from the final yet only won 3 out of 6 in 90 minutes, 2 of which were against dreadful sides in Tunisia and Panama.

All about the fine margins. I don't buy into the stuff about it being a different mentality or a new era. We've done better than expected because we finally won a penalty shootout then had a good draw in Sweden in the QF.

[joey_big_nose]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

.

For me the biggest contributor last night was Southgate was tactically outdone in the second half but chances are Croatia might have pinched a goal anyway even if we'd continued to dominate but failed to get another one or two

Not really sure what Southgate could have done to be honest. No real personnel available to wrest back control once they settled their midfield.

[joey_big_nose]

52 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I thought we should have reverted to a back four when they started getting on top after about 50 minutes.  Not many teams can try to defend the last third for 30 odd minutes and survive. You certainly can't defend the penalty area for that amount of time unless you're very,very  lucky.

It would have been a major risk to go to a four at level terms. We've only played as a three with that side. It would have created a lot of confusion I think.

When we did eventually go to a four in extra time we didn't look any better for it.

Fortune favours the brave and all that, but it would have been a radical move that could well have backfired.

Over the next couple of years a key objective for Southgate will be to implement tactical flexibility, but ultimately that will need better quality and options in midfield to enable it.

 

[perthblue02]

oh well now that's over with, only 23 days until the proper football starts

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

30 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Most disappointed that the younger ones, and indeed not so young, don't get to see England take the field in a WC Final. I hope they do in their lifetimes.

'66 is etched in the memory banks. My Dad, 2 brothers and me sat around a black and white tv. Dad giving us all a can of Tennants lager, the tall one with a bathing suit beauty on. I was only 14 so had to go for an early pee missing Haller's strike. Devastated with the German equaliser. Loving Rusians for ever from extra time. Hursts hat trick, he admits on the last one he was trying to lash it as far into the crowd as he could. Names never forgotten

I'd mixed emotions to a certain extent. Me and a pal had seen West Germany absolutely thrash a decent Swiss team in their first match so we scraped together a £10 to put on West Germany at 10 to 1. Beckenbauer was awesome that day, that's still one of the best midfield performances I've ever seen. They were a very good side and England were pretty poor in the early game.

Bearing in mind my weekly wages as an apprentice then were £5-5-0 a week we had a lot riding on the Final. It was win - win really.

People took things in their stride in those days. We all used to meet up at a local snooker hall before going on the usual Saturday night pub crawl around town. We were all amateur players then but we only spent about an hour talking about the game and then it was on to the usual subjects of beer , women, and where we were going next.

On the Sunday afternoon we met up for the usual 3 hr game of football ( first to 20 goals wins ) and the Final was hardly mentioned !

[Bigdoggsteel]

28 minutes ago, DE. said:

I think if we'd have scored a second in the first half we would have gone on to win the match. Going in at 1-0 is always dangerous for a team as defensively suspect as England, and Croatia looked rejuvenated in the second half. Once they realised how well their tactical switch was working their energy and confidence soared. It was a matter of time at that point as Southgate either wouldn't or couldn't react to what was happening. We did well to get to extra time and I can't help but think come Sunday Croatia may rue adding another unnecessary half an hour to one of their matches. 

Oh ya, if ye scored a 2nd it was over barring a complete retreat to your box, which may have happened. The thing that bet you last night was the teams own psychology, that may have happened at 2-0 up either. It was a spirited effort overall at the tournament, but I thinking hindsight you will look back at it as one that got away. Southgate didn't react well or quick enough when needed. He was the right man up until about 50 min into last nights game, a more experienced manager may have seen things out better.   Henderson was isolated on his own on the middle, he did great work, but needed support. He should have brought Delph on to help him out in place of Lingard , who was a non-entity. A fit Jamie Vardy would have made a difference too, he def looked about 60%, was there no other option? Rashford wasn't great either. It was Kanes worst game of the tournament, he was dropping too deep and was a bit indulgent with the chance in the first half where he should have squared it, but thats easy for me to say sitting at home, the man is going to be the top scorer at a world cup. 

Fair play though, it must be some buzz getting to the semi final of a world cup. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

12 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

It would have been a major risk to go to a four at level terms. We've only played as a three with that side. It would have created a lot of confusion I think.

When we did eventually go to a four in extra time we didn't look any better for it.

Fortune favours the brave and all that, but it would have been a radical move that could well have backfired.

Over the next couple of years a key objective for Southgate will be to implement tactical flexibility, but ultimately that will need better quality and options in midfield to enable it.

 

Professional players who have all played 4-4-2 before, they should be able to adapt. It would have helped ye last night. Get Henderson and Delph in the middle to combat the Croatian control. Croatia were misplacing passes all over the place at times, they looked a busted flush. 

I just wonder about the fitness. Croatia looked the fresher in extra time. The English guys looked completely wrecked, same as the Colombia game. After playing less than the Croatians in the previous games. I thought that's where England would eventually win the game 

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, benhben said:

Amazing to get to a semi final. Never thought id see that for many years. I had England to go out at the first knockout game this tournament, so we far surpassed my expectations. I doubt we will ever see a draw like that again with almost all the big sides in the same side of the draw. Its been a crazy tournament. 

Reflecting on England my thoughts are in no particular order.

1. Trippier and McGuire were our best players. Their stock has gone up massively. McGuire would be a great signing for an Arenal or Liverpool. suspect there will be interest. 

2. Not convinced by our tactics of 5-3-2 or 3-5-2. For large parts of the tournament, Panama and Sweeden aside, i didnt think we looked particularly good from open play. Midfield was overrun often with Henderson trying to cover large areas alone and a big gap to the defence and attack. We often finished games 5-1-4

3. England are desperate for some attacking quality. Lingard and Sterling run and run and commit defenders but they will never be playmakers and lack compsure. If we could unearth a quality playmaker or someone to connect midfield to attack this side would be improved massively. Dack ;)? This needs to  be the focus for English player development, technique and creativity. 

4. Sterling gets a lot of critisism but the team needs him. He seriously lacks composure in the final third but he was the only player looking to run behind and commit defenders. Always shows for the ball. Rashford is hyped but hardly created anything when he came on last night. 

5. I am sure in the last 12 months England have won or got to the semi finals of almost every tournament form youth. Havent the Under 17s, U20s and U21s all won this year? If so the future looks bright, lets hope they get the game time they need to develop.

Nice to get some pride back in the national team. 

Some excellent points.

Where I do worry is bullet 5. Yes, we have some great English talent coming through the ranks but what seems to happen is that these players are quickly hoovered up by clubs like Chelsea and are then not given opportunities to play at a higher level. They are farmed our to the Championship or lower and have their development curtailed.

There is no incentive for English clubs to give English youngsters the chances and the experiences they need and the regulators don’t demand it. It’s no coincidence that the last time we were any kind of force in European, let alone world football was the pre- and early PL years when teams had lots of Englishmen (and British players generally) in their ranks. (Scotland and Ireland have suffered too).

As you rightly pointed out, this World Cup has been a freak one with all of footballs giants being poor or knocking each other out. However, this has reignited a nation’s love of the game. Those charged with cultivating and promoting our beautiful game in this country need to nurture this and support the development of their national side(s) even if it is at the expense of club sides. Of course they won’t though. Too frightened by big money owners who do what they want without sanction and “work within” the rules designed to keep them happy. Too comfortable in their self-aggrandising FA and PL blazers at their corporate dinners to congratulate themselves on all the lovely money they are all making. However, since foreign owners only care about prestige for themselves through the purchased success through their assets, we can expect the foreign money-go-round to continue for a long time yet - and for them to continue to buy and farm out potential England players to the likes of Crystal Palace and West Brom and saying “if they were any good they’d make it anyway”. Which of course is nonsense because players get better by playing with better players.

Ironically, the last club that was successful going down the all-England route (or at least mostly) continue to be sneered at to this day.

If football really was to come home their would be far stricter and larger homegrown rules.

Dare we dream?

[benhben]

Just now, Stuart said:

Some excellent points.

Where I do worry is bullet 5. Yes, we have some great English talent coming through the ranks but what seems to happen is that these players are quickly hoovered up by clubs like Chelsea and are then not given opportunities to play at a higher level. They are farmed our to the Championship or lower and have their development curtailed.

 

Its a shame young english dont often seem to entertain going and playing abroad, with regular games out of the british media spotlight. Young brasilians, argentinians etc often move abroad before getting a bigger move. Probably a culture thing, also why were so bad at learning languages. 

Im sure theres a lad who left manchester city youth to go to Dortmund and has had a good amount of game time and is getting good reviews. 

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Professional players who have all played 4-4-2 before, they should be able to adapt. It would have helped ye last night. Get Henderson and Delph in the middle to combat the Croatian control. Croatia were misplacing passes all over the place at times, they looked a busted flush. 

I just wonder about the fitness. Croatia looked the fresher in extra time. The English guys looked completely wrecked, same as the Colombia game. After playing less than the Croatians in the previous games. I thought that's where England would eventually win the game 

No way should we have changed formation. 

I do think we looked fresher but couldnt use it to our advantage. Should have used Delph as mentioned for Alli, that would have been my first sub.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, benhben said:

Its a shame young english dont often seem to entertain going and playing abroad, with regular games out of the british media spotlight. Young brasilians, argentinians etc often move abroad before getting a bigger move. Probably a culture thing, also why were so bad at learning languages. 

Im sure theres a lad who left manchester city youth to go to Dortmund and has had a good amount of game time and is getting good reviews. 

Very true. The Croatians play all over Europe, I think that stands to teams. The big English clubs are frankly ruining good English players. Look at Rashford as 1 example. It cannot be said that he has/is in the best place for his development. 

The reality is though and this is the same with Irish players, you get more money in the reserves of a Premiership team or starting in the Championship than you would in any other league in Europe. If you are Croatian playing for Hadjuk Split you will eventually have to leave the nest, in most cases sooner rather than later. 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

No way should we have changed formation. 

I do think we looked fresher but couldnt use it to our advantage. Should have used Delph as mentioned for Alli, that would have been my first sub.

Bringing on Delph for Alli would have entailed a change in formation as far as I can see.