Venkys London Ltd accounts

[K-Hod]

11 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

Watch this space.

They are putting Suhail on furlough and selling the abandoned Neville mansion to pay the weekly staff.

Is this true or are you speculating? 
If it’s the latter, please can you make it clear, as we don’t want the site getting in any bother from a legal perspective.

Ta.

[Herbie6590]

11 hours ago, TBTF said:

and in what world do we think we can run up losses of £35million in 2 years and then contain to £4million in the third year ?

 

For clarity - FFP losses are not calculated simply by adding up the combined losses in the P&L - the FFP calculation allows expenditure on items such as infrastructure, academy, ladies team etc & so on. The FFP figure discounts these expenses. That said, we must be sailing pretty close to the wind and post-COVID football finance I suspect is going to be a fundamentally different place. Our season in League One also muddies the water because SCMP rules apply there not FFP.

If Venky's core business takes a hit the discretionary funding of Rovers may well come under the spotlight. Many "benevolent funder" owned clubs will find themselves waking up with a start over the next 12 months, Derby County for one.

Watch what happens to TV companies for a lead indicator - if the Sky/BT subscriber numbers take a hit because people have lost jobs &/or found another use for the time/money then the PL gravy train is over. That will impact all the way down the food chain but those lower-division clubs who are breaking even on today's model (i.e. not reliant on TV, gate money covers the wage bill) will be best placed to take advantage. The likes of Rotherham Utd & Accrington Stanley may well be the winners.

[OldEwoodBlue]

14 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

Our season in League One also muddies the water because SCMP rules apply there not FFP.

 

This is not true. I pressed Waggott explicitly on this point and he confirmed that season IS included under FFP.

SCMP applies whilst you are physically in L1 but as we are in the Champ that season is calculated under FFP rules.

 

[Stuart]

43 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

This is not true. I pressed Waggott explicitly on this point and he confirmed that season IS included under FFP.

SCMP applies whilst you are physically in L1 but as we are in the Champ that season is calculated under FFP rules.

A ridiculous way to govern football. Different financial rules applying in different ways over three different categories: PL, Championship and L1/L2.

No wonder football is in such a mess.

[Herbie6590]

4 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

This is not true. I pressed Waggott explicitly on this point and he confirmed that season IS included under FFP.

SCMP applies whilst you are physically in L1 but as we are in the Champ that season is calculated under FFP rules.

 

Well...yes & no...it depends on precisely what question you asked & perhaps also what question he thought you asked...

A relegated club from the Championship is as you say still bound by the FFP rules until it has confirmed that it was compliant under that regime i.e. its accounts are signed off I guess. Once that obligation is discharged, then the following season’s performance in L1 is calibrated using SCMP. If the club stays in L1/2 no problem.

Rovers make for an interesting case study therefore by dint of having won promotion in one season. Rovers rolling three year results include one season under the auspices of SCMP but of course now, we are subject once again to FFP.

I attach the regulation from the EFL website which interestingly doesn’t quote the case of a team promoted from L1 to the Championship...perhaps because the EFL aren’t sure how to handle it ! Call me a cynic.

it seems innately unfair (& possibly illegal) to presume Rovers would be charged with breaking a regulation that didn’t apply to them for one season & as that season was especially costly, m’learned friends could I’m sure have a field day with it. 
 

That we are talking about Finance & law rather than football is of course the real tragedy here...?

[OldEwoodBlue]

The accounts are the accounts & then...

If we are in L1 we have to comply with SCMP.

If we are in the Champ we have to comply with FFP.

Mike Cheston said it's really that simple.

[The Axe]

 

Think this schematic (not my own) proves what OEB is saying.

[Herbie6590]

The guy who used to run Coventry seems to know what he’s on about...?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/financial-fair-play-league-one-8560150.amp

[Stuart]

Coventry don’t seem to have looked back since he (and Mowbray) left.

We know all to well how easy it is to work with the Raos. Be a ‘nice man’ and keep the peasants away from their pitchforks seems to be the only requirement.

[chaddyrovers]

 

 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

It would have been cheaper to keep Allardyce 

[tomphil]

About time they were getting some proper bang for their continued bucks instead of the slow train that never leaves the pigging sidings.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Staggering  how much this has cost them. £200m plus 10 years of SKY Prem money. Probably close to £1BN in income.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[Stuart]

We simply must be a great way to offset liabilities elsewhere. Meanwhile the club owes £200m to them.

A state of perpetual numbness - and we should be grateful that they haven’t closed us down yet.

Worst owners we’ve ever had. Let’s hope they aren’t also the last ones...

[Sparks Rover]

3 hours ago, Stuart said:

We simply must be a great way to offset liabilities elsewhere. Meanwhile the club owes £200m to them.

Can you explain what you mean? There is no debt on the club from what I can see if/when they leave.  

[Stuart]

5 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Can you explain what you mean? There is no debt on the club from what I can see if/when they leave.  

The club is “in debt” to Venkys. This is Eddie Davis all over again.

[Kamy100]

Stuart is right.  This is like what happened with Bolton, we are not in debt to any financial institution but we are in debt to Venky's and if they decide to recall that debt then we will be in big trouble (not that there is any suggestion that they will do this at the moment).

There are different scenarios where they could sell the club and write off debt etc.

I don't feel like that they are some sort of heros for continuing to put money into the club, they created this mess and I give them some credit for not walking away but all of this is their fault, they did not listen to people who were giving them proper advice when it was clear to the even the biggest idiot that they were being taken for fools.  

[Sparks Rover]

1 hour ago, Kamy100 said:

Stuart is right.  This is like what happened with Bolton, we are not in debt to any financial institution but we are in debt to Venky's and if they decide to recall that debt then we will be in big trouble (not that there is any suggestion that they will do this at the moment).

There are different scenarios where they could sell the club and write off debt etc.

I don't feel like that they are some sort of heros for continuing to put money into the club, they created this mess and I give them some credit for not walking away but all of this is their fault, they did not listen to people who were giving them proper advice when it was clear to the even the biggest idiot that they were being taken for fools.  

I'd say it more like the Fulham/Al.Fayed arrangement where there is no secured debt.  We owe them nothing.  They've issued as share capital, not loans to the club..

[phili]

Apart from the overdraft, we do not have any external debt at the moment.

It seems they are having to inject nearly £7m every 3 months to keep the lights on, so around £28-30m for this season (nearly double their normal yearly contribution). For that amount of cash I would be expecting a promotion challenge at the minimum.

Also in 3 months we will break the magical £200m barrier, at a certain point they must reach an enough is enough moment. 

[JHRover]

I'm afraid that £15 million+ per year is the going rate for a top end Championship club these days. The only way of avoiding that is through regular player sales like Brentford or Barnsley with extremely shrewd management or parachute income. We've had neither and so need owner investment to this level, in much the same way as Forest, Derby, Sheffield Wednesday, Reading and Bristol City similarly rely on substantial owner input to plug losses.

The annoying thing is that Venkys picked us up on the cheap, £40 million for an established PL club inclusive of external debt is a bargain. A decade on and you'd be looking at £200 million now if WBA and Swansea sales are anything to go by.

For £200 million and sensible management they could have bought us, cleared the debt and put £15 million a year in on top of the PL riches. But instead that's now what they have to do just to keep us floating around this division.

If they'd have come looking for a club in 2020 rather than 2010 then they'd have run a mile. But if they'd have bought a mid table Championship club and wanted to try to get promoted then they'd have needed £20 million a year to have a chance so I don't think this is unchartered territory. Its the going rate. Difference is that most rivals have given up after a few years and have sold up to someone else yet Venkys keep on going. Other owners appear to have an interest in the game and attend matches whereas ours don't.

It actually doesn't concern me as much as it perhaps should. Why? Because it is 'debt' to them and there is simply no way they will ever get it back. They need to accept that and they seem to have done so without running so they must be comfortable or realistic about it.

The bigger concern for me is if and when they give up who we get to step into the £10 million a year minimum requirement void to keep us going. I've no doubt there will be people interested to try and get us promoted in a season and make their money back. But as a long term Championship club maybe not so simple. 

It is also difficult to reconcile a £200 million 'investment' yet not even able to maintain our stadium or pitch to a decent standard. With that sort of spending we should be the envy of the division.

[roversfan99]

This latest news which is I think somewhat misunderstood has again been greeted with plenty of reactions as per the attached. And one thing I really did notice is that many of the responses are from people younger than me, maybe between late teens and early to mid 20s. (I think the bottom one that ive shown is particularly seen as almost a parody account)

I do find it baffling quite how much people defend them, especially often to the point of slagging off fans who do still have any disdain, and often comparing to Wigan/Bolton/Bury which are comparisons that really lack any understanding of the bigger picture. But there are definitely patterns between ages and reactions.

Edited February 9, 2021 by roversfan99

[Kie_BRFC]

27 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

This latest news which is I think somewhat misunderstood has again been greeted with plenty of reactions as per the attached. And one thing I really did notice is that many of the responses are from people younger than me, maybe between late teens and early to mid 20s. (I think the bottom one that ive shown is particularly seen as almost a parody account)

I do find it baffling quite how much people defend them, especially often to the point of slagging off fans who do still have any disdain, and often comparing to Wigan/Bolton/Bury which are comparisons that really lack any understanding of the bigger picture. But there are definitely patterns between ages and reactions.

I had an argument with that callum at the start of the season where he initially said anyone not buying a season ticket isn't a proper fan, then when prices were released he claimed they were too expensive and thus wasn't going to buy one. Absolute muppet

[Riverside under the drip]

6 minutes ago, Kie_BRFC said:

I had an argument with that callum at the start of the season where he initially said anyone not buying a season ticket isn't a proper fan, then when prices were released he claimed they were too expensive and thus wasn't going to buy one. Absolute muppet

If the last year has taught me anything, it's that there are a lot of people to whom 'logic' is some fashion brand. No amount of reasoned argument will ever convince such a creature to change an opinion. The 'others' are wrong and the devil incarnate whereas my side is the one true good. Whether it's 'true fan' arguments, Lab/Con or Rep/Dem, the divides seem to be getting wider.

I have no doubt that this fellow would be the sort who'd swear in front of kids on away days or delay the coach by queuing up for McDonalds on a toilet stop.

[matt83]

If they need to inject £7 million every 4 months that’s £21 million a season. Presumably transfers are on top of that. So it’s costing them £20-30 million a season. Two thoughts: 1 how does that compare to other clubs in the championship? 2 Mowbray must have one hell of a silver tongue to convince them he’s worth another season of mid table mediocrity.

Surely they must want to see some return for £197 million. As it stands it’s cost them that much to take us from a mid table premiership club to a mid table championship club and alienate 50% of the customer base in the process. 👏 👏👏👏👏👏 

[tomphil]

10 minutes ago, matt83 said:

If they need to inject £7 million every 4 months that’s £21 million a season. Presumably transfers are on top of that. So it’s costing them £20-30 million a season. Two thoughts: 1 how does that compare to other clubs in the championship? 2 Mowbray must have one hell of a silver tongue to convince them he’s worth another season of mid table mediocrity.

Surely they must want to see some return for £197 million. As it stands it’s cost them that much to take us from a mid table premiership club to a mid table championship club and alienate 50% of the customer base in the process. 👏 👏👏👏👏👏 

I'd say now more than ever before they should actually be asking what are we going to get back from this and when ?

Mountains of money was going in before to pay for morally bankrupt deeds but now it's just propping up a midtable championship club.  When most of that squad is fit it should be doing better than it is now.  Saturday was a case in point that side was more than good enough to get something. 

And there was no pitch to blame, at what point do they start holding the manager and his staff accountable ?