Venkys London Ltd accounts

[Mattyblue]

I’ve no particular issue with folk being content that they are still writing the cheques, or that we see funds available for players, the academy etc - the club is obviously not the cesspit it was previously.

However it grates massively that we should feel some sort of empathy for owners of an international conglomerate having their pants pulled down. It was their arrogance that saw our downfall and we have all paid the price.

[LDRover]

1 hour ago, Kie_BRFC said:

I had an argument with that callum at the start of the season where he initially said anyone not buying a season ticket isn't a proper fan, then when prices were released he claimed they were too expensive and thus wasn't going to buy one. Absolute muppet

He's a complete gobshite. Mind you he fits in on there.

[JHRover]

One thing I can say with some confidence is that the emotional harm and upset caused to me and thousands of other lifelong fans over the last decade is almost certainly greater than any upset billionaires on the other side of the world writing off losses that will probably not have put so much as a dent in their vast fortune.

I also think that the money I spend every year, along with thousands of others, in supporting the club is probably a greater percentage of my limited income/net worth than £15 million a year is to billionaires.

[Herbie6590]

5 hours ago, Kamy100 said:

Stuart is right.  This is like what happened with Bolton, we are not in debt to any financial institution but we are in debt to Venky's and if they decide to recall that debt then we will be in big trouble (not that there is any suggestion that they will do this at the moment).

There are different scenarios where they could sell the club and write off debt etc.

I don't feel like that they are some sort of heros for continuing to put money into the club, they created this mess and I give them some credit for not walking away but all of this is their fault, they did not listen to people who were giving them proper advice when it was clear to the even the biggest idiot that they were being taken for fools.  

It’s a bit more nuanced Kamy...they tend to convert the debt to shares thereby signalling that it’s a permanent investment in the balance sheet. If it remained as “on call” loans then that might signal a cause for greater concern.

Frankly, whether loans or share capital, the only realistic way that they ever get their money back is turn us into a solid Premier League side that can count on ever-growing TV revenues...or we develop 11 Phil Fodens through the academy...

[perthblue02]

If any of the V's are reading this I have a trophy in the shed that is a lot bigger than the 3rd division not quite as good as Wigan trophy that has cost you nearly 200 million.  It's yours for 500k* , no great ongoing costs only a pack of silver wipes and a quick clean every few months. 

*Direct transaction no third parties involved so the price does not jump up to 2 million

Edited February 9, 2021 by perthblue02

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

5 hours ago, Kie_BRFC said:

I had an argument with that callum at the start of the season where he initially said anyone not buying a season ticket isn't a proper fan, then when prices were released he claimed they were too expensive and thus wasn't going to buy one. Absolute muppet

Theres a CallumRovers that posts on here. 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

3 hours ago, Herbie6590 said:

It’s a bit more nuanced Kamy...they tend to convert the debt to shares thereby signalling that it’s a permanent investment in the balance sheet. If it remained as “on call” loans then that might signal a cause for greater concern.

Frankly, whether loans or share capital, the only realistic way that they ever get their money back is turn us into a solid Premier League side that can count on ever-growing TV revenues...or we develop 11 Phil Fodens through the academy...

Foden - the poor man's Bucko. 

[PLJPB]

5 hours ago, Herbie6590 said:

It’s a bit more nuanced Kamy...they tend to convert the debt to shares thereby signalling that it’s a permanent investment in the balance sheet. If it remained as “on call” loans then that might signal a cause for greater concern. 

Unfortunately this is technically  not the case.  The share capital conversions are in the VLL company. Within the BRFC company it is all loans. I.e. VLL can call in the loan and demand  payment from BRFC. 

Of course that's not to say that the Rao's ever will do this but they retain the legal right to do so.

I've just checked back and the last filed accounts for BRFC show £127m owed to VLL at 30/06/19 within creditors payable within 1 year. There will have been much more loans since then with no share capital changes since then.

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by PLJPB
additional information

[Exiled in Toronto]

17 minutes ago, PLJPB said:

Unfortunately this is technically  not the case.  The share capital conversions are in the VLL company. Within the BRFC company it is all loans. I.e. VLL can call in the loan and demand  payment from BRFC. 

Of course that's not to say that the Rao's ever will do this but they retain the legal right to do so.

I've just checked back and the last filed accounts for BRFC show £127m owed to VLL at 30/06/19 within creditors payable within 1 year. There will have been much more loans since then with no share capital changes since then.

 

Might I be right in guessing that they do it that way to prevent it hitting the parent company’s P&L as a (potential) loss? Could they argue to the auditors that VLL could make money in other ways to cover losses on its loans to BRFC, whereas BRFC almost certainly could never pay the money back. After all, all those years Burnley have been in the Prem only realised £40m in the bank.

[Mercer]

Hopefully, a bit of clarity.

Firstly, the relationship between Venky's London Limited (parent company) and The Blackburn Rovers Football and Athletic Limited (football club) needs to be understood.

Venky's London Limited (parent company) issue shares and then make loans to The Blackburn Rovers Football and Athletic Limited.  The last accounts for the football club (y.e. June 2019) showed these loans (£127million) under creditors falling due within one year.  The accounts also stated the loans were interest free with no fixed date for repayment, however, these loans are repayable.  The bottom line is if VLL call in these loans then we are well and truly fecked.

Since the football club's last filed accounts (y.e. June 2019), VLL have issued something in the region of a further £35million shares - to provide further loans to the football club.

I think it is inevitable there will be a 'tipping point'.

The Raos have an asset, which under present circumstances, is worth only a tiny fraction of their almost £200million investment.

I feel sure the Raos' realise their only hope of making a substantial recovery on their investment would be if we got promoted to the PL.  IMO, this looks an increasingly forlorn hope and as each season goes by without us even threatening to get promoted, I feel their perception will change and we will be getting closer to them deciding enough is enough.

Make no mistake, there is no magic money tree.  As a finance professional, I think we are up financial sh1t creek without a paddle and our ongoing existence hangs by, what I would consider to be, an increasingly tenuous thread.  As Bolton found with Eddie Davis, there comes a time...........................   

Edited February 9, 2021 by Mercer

[Herbie6590]

2 hours ago, PLJPB said:

Unfortunately this is technically  not the case.  The share capital conversions are in the VLL company. Within the BRFC company it is all loans. I.e. VLL can call in the loan and demand  payment from BRFC. 

Of course that's not to say that the Rao's ever will do this but they retain the legal right to do so.

I've just checked back and the last filed accounts for BRFC show £127m owed to VLL at 30/06/19 within creditors payable within 1 year. There will have been much more loans since then with no share capital changes since then.

 

You are correct, I was referencing VLL re the share issues. The funding from the ultimate parent in India comes in as share capital.

[OldEwoodBlue]

The debt can be £200 million or £300 million. It don't matter. They will never get it back.

Option 1 to sell us & write off debt.

Option 2 to call in debt triggering administration, in which case they will get their money back from where? Nowhere.

It is inevitable it ends one way or the other. Sooner the better. 

 

[Crimpshrine]

57 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

Sooner the better. 

 

Amen

[Claytons Left Boot]

48 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

The debt can be £200 million or £300 million. It don't matter. They will never get it back.

Option 1 to sell us & write off debt.

Option 2 to call in debt triggering administration, in which case they will get their money back from where? Nowhere.

It is inevitable it ends one way or the other. Sooner the better. 

 

Spot on. Option 1 for me and, as you say, the sooner the better.

There is, however, an Option 3. This would be to snap out of their trance, engage with the fans, put the past behind them, put a functional board of directors together with a proper internal structure in place and outline a plan to progress us to the next level. They do have the financial clout to undertake this but, having witnessed their ten year tenure to date, there is little chance of this happening.

Similarly, Options 1 and 2 are unlikely to happen as well. No one can predict the actions of our owners other than dipping into their pockets to continue to keep us ticking over. Our fan base is so weak that we will meekly accept our ‘fate’ without any meaningful response. That boat sailed long ago.

It’s like death by a thousand cuts.

[tomphil]

As i said to a dingle on twitter earlier who was sticking the knife in about the debt to Vs  ( whilst not quite grasping the situation they are now in ).

We are just a good manager away from promotion with the way their backing is now. That's not a dig at Mowbray it's just a fact, if they made the correct moves and used some of those millions in the recruitment of a suitable guy & his staff then at some point we'd go up.

That's where we are at now this regime have laid some good foundations and the backing has been more sensible.  It needs that next step to move us on a level before millions do start being squandered again, players leave and we go back to square one.

[JHRover]

The biggest frustration with Venkys is that it is clear that the money is there if they want to spend it and the costs of bankrolling the club every year is evidence of that. These guys must have serious cash to be able to keep on pumping it in 10 years on with so little going the other way in return - no major sales, no real interest in the game, local connections or even commercial benefit.

My view has been and will be that the ideal outcome here is for Venkys to stay BUT put in place a proper structure to enable the club to thrive. Unfortunately whilst improvements have been made in that we now have sensible and straight people in place the structure for me still isn't there. It is still run as a corner shop operation where personal trust and friendships are more important than performances and results.

The more time that passes the more it becomes clear that they aren't going to change - they aren't going to relinquish power to the UK or appoint innovative, ambitious, capable executives - they just want a manager they trust with their money and go with his recommendations on everything else which is how we've got Waggott shuffling papers around and setting ticket prices.

It feels like we have half the job sorted - incredibly rich owners willing and able to keep us operating to a decent level - but still too foolish to use their resources to install a real top drawer structure that will last and enable serious inroads to be made towards promotion and survival at the top level and this bizarre arrangement where the football squad get ample resources and investment but the club and facilities get nothing. Very strange.

With £15-20 million a year going in and no big sales we should be blowing the likes of Barnsley, Preston, Luton, Millwall completely out of the water and be strong contenders in this league, yet there's more to it than just throwing money in every year and 'trusting' the manager because he's a nice man. You need to know when to make ruthless decisions and back experts to carry out those decisions to keep on an upward trajectory.

 

[matt83]

Instead of forging a relationship with a manager and then if they like said manager give him free reign to do and say what he likes. How about they forge a similar relationship with a ceo. Hopefully that ceo will convince them to have a functional board of directors, any manager then goes to the ceo with his plans and the ceo goes to the owners. As it should be. If they would like to speak to the manager personally then get THEIR arse on a plane so they can also see the state of their baby.

* Even if they’d siphoned off a tiny bit of that £197 million to make sure the ground/pitch wasn’t in a sorry state. Nope. Not even done that. Nearly £200 million down the drain and the only thing that’s stayed to the same standard is the academy. The rest of the club from the team, to the manager, to the staff hierarchy, to the ground has gone to rat shit  

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by matt83

[Mattyblue]

The war’s over lads, the sage of football finance, Kieran Maguire, has stated on the Price of Football podcast that the ‘owners have completely won the fans around’.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

The war’s over lads, the sage of football finance, Kieran Maguire, has stated on the Price of Football podcast that the ‘owners have completely won the fans around’.

And Mogga's been nominated for Manager of the Month. Close BRFCS.

[47er]

And Gallagher won Winger Of The Year.

[Herbie6590]

Daren't open them yet...

[tomphil]

I'm trying to think of a suitable horror theme tune.....

[PeteJD13]

32 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

Daren't open them yet...

I couldn’t open it said the document was being processed !

[JHRover]

And now time for the bi-annual stuff that we can't afford to change manager and coaching staff, shouldn't question how the club is run, should be grateful for Venkys or that surviving in the Championship is an accomplishment, or we'd be Bury without them.

 

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

On 11/02/2021 at 06:56, Mattyblue said:

The war’s over lads, the sage of football finance, Kieran Maguire, has stated on the Price of Football podcast that the ‘owners have completely won the fans around’.

Two fingered salute to Kieran Maguire.

The war has only just started imo.