Venkys London Ltd accounts

[tomphil]

TM has done a lot of pushing Armstrong this season so there might be a few quid recoupable there by summer to ease the FFP.

Otherwise possibly Nyambe and of course Lenihen are the only other saleable assets for around 3 million plus.

[Ewood Ace]

Make's me feel sick to read this. As one of the worst decades in the club's history comes to an end it seems the next decade could be an even worse one and who knows where we will be by the end of it. Very worrying. 

[Stuart]

If this were an expensive hobby then it would be damned to FFP and we would just pay whatever non-existent finds that the likes of QPR and Derby and whoever else have.

Every year we do this dance. We need promotion, it’s as simple as that. Which is why pussyfooting around with managers who don’t have the ability or stomach for it is folly.

But not to worry, in a month this will all be forgotten about and we will be back to the normal ebb and flow of football and building slowly, doing things the ‘right way’. Whatever that is when you are spending money you don’t have and the club’s response is not to fertilise the soil, sow seeds and grow, but to treat us like cattle and milk us for relative pennies compared to the size of the debt. Does this ‘right way’ also extend to spending millions that we don’t have on unproven “potential” just because they are English?

It’s lucky it’s only football. A some point this has to come to an end.

Happy New Effing Year everyone!

[G Somerset Rover]

23 minutes ago, tomphil said:

TM has done a lot of pushing Armstrong this season so there might be a few quid recoupable there by summer to ease the FFP.

Otherwise possibly Nyambe and of course Lenihen are the only other saleable assets for around 3 million plus.

Travis would likely be in that bracket too. 

[tomphil]

Just now, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Travis would likely be in that bracket too. 

Yep almost forgot about him and it'll most likely be another academy graduate who goes next not a Mowbray man.

[OldEwoodBlue]

Clear to me there was a plan to meet FFP involving the sale of Dack to the highest bidder. That has been blown out the water so its going to mean cuts to the squad without any incomings in Jan and probably the summer.

Dack is (was) the 2020 golden goose.

Brereton was bought to develop and be the 2022 golden goose.

Now we are surely screwed on FFP.

We need promotion ASAP or the next thing is going to be points deductions and relegation. Can't see Cheston doing anything other than rolling over to have his belly tickled by the EFL. This is very bad.

[stinny1]

30 minutes ago, Stuart said:

If this were an expensive hobby then it would be damned to FFP and we would just pay whatever non-existent finds that the likes of QPR and Derby and whoever else have.

Every year we do this dance. We need promotion, it’s as simple as that. Which is why pussyfooting around with managers who don’t have the ability or stomach for it is folly.

But not to worry, in a month this will all be forgotten about and we will be back to the normal ebb and flow of football and building slowly, doing things the ‘right way’. Whatever that is when you are spending money you don’t have and the club’s response is not to fertilise the soil, sow seeds and grow, but to treat us like cattle and milk us for relative pennies compared to the size of the debt. Does this ‘right way’ also extend to spending millions that we don’t have on unproven “potential” just because they are English?

It’s lucky it’s only football. A some point this has to come to an end.

Happy New Effing Year everyone!

 

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

Otherwise possibly Nyambe and of course Lenihen are the only other saleable assets for around 3 million plus.

Not even sure we could shift them at that price tbh...after that we are left with players worth a bag 'o chips.

What a mess,it's just a continuing financial clusterfcuk.

Edited December 31, 2019 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[Herbie6590]

14 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

Not even sure we could shift them at that price...after that we are left with players worth a bag a chips.

What a mess.

I’d venture Lenihan, Travis, Nyambe in that order is our new pecking order of saleable assets. 

For FFP purposes it’s not simply a case of adding up the last three years’ losses & hoping it comes to less than £39m of course. The running costs of the academy are an allowable expense for FFP so the development and onward sale of talent is the most likely income stream. Ticket sales aren’t growing, non-Matchday revenues opportunities are minimal, sponsorship in the Championship isn’t great, TV money is better than League One but nothing to write home about so player sales is the only other option.

I suspect that under their new (former Burnley) CEO, the EFL will soon stop the sale & leaseback of a stadium; a loophole closed. Sheff Weds hilarious legal action will bring that to a conclusion no doubt. 
Rovers recently advertised for a new head of commercial or marketing or something like that, with responsibility for growing revenues...having seen these figures, it’s no wonder. That role is probably the 2nd most important in the club right now. If the incumbent fails to deliver, we are going to struggle.

Of course for those like me, longer in the tooth, we are back to where we once were. From Keith Newton, via Tony Field, Paul Bradshaw, Kevin Hird, John Bailey through to Simon Barker and the likes, if the money was right we took it & rebuilt. We’re back there it would seem.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Have a bad feeling ST prices are going to rocket next season.

[perthblue02]

5 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

Have a bad feeling ST prices are going to rocket next season.

Don't worry ,now there is very little chance for the next few years the promotion pledge* will be back

*Unless we drop to Division 3 again then it will disappear with a chance of it happening

Edited December 31, 2019 by perthblue02

[Amo]

4 hours ago, Herbie6590 said:

These numbers confirm that owning a Championship football club is akin to playing high stakes roulette. The only way you might see a return on the investment is by winning promotion to the promised land of the Premier League. Otherwise, it’s a very expensive hobby. 
Venky’s continue to bankroll the losses and without that support, Rovers would be insolvent. It’s hard to see how the club can spend significantly without contravening FFP based on these numbers.

To echo Rich Sharpe’s recent Tweets, the academy is the way forward, develop your own, sell them on at a profit. 
 

One can only assume that the signings of Brereton & Gallagher were predicated on the basis that they would grow, develop and be sold on at a profit. The importance of spending such large sums wisely is brought into sharp focus. The absolute imperative of growing Matchday & non-Matchday income is clear to see.

Thing is, you don’t need to break the bank to get out of this league. What did Burnley’s promotion side cost again? Few mil?

I’m honestly surprised by Venky’s largesse in buying Gallagher and Brereton. One player who flattered to deceive here already, another who was an unknown quantity but both with an English premium. I’m sure there will be agents laughing all the way to the bank on that one. 

[K-Hod]

If we need to grow matchday revenue, then we need to think of things to entice the fans, rather than put up obstacles....

(match day surcharge, ticket price vs SWFC, price of pies/booze, I could go on). 

[Crimpshrine]

15 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

Of course for those like me, longer in the tooth, we are back to where we once were. From Keith Newton, via Tony Field, Paul Bradshaw, Kevin Hird, John Bailey through to Simon Barker and the likes, if the money was right we took it & rebuilt. We’re back there it would seem.

But this time it was avoidable and self inflicted!

[Mattyblue]

13 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

 

Of course for those like me, longer in the tooth, we are back to where we once were. From Keith Newton, via Tony Field, Paul Bradshaw, Kevin Hird, John Bailey through to Simon Barker and the likes, if the money was right we took it & rebuilt. We’re back there it would seem.

Only difference being back then we were owned by locals of modest means, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers doing their bit for their club and community. Certainly not comparable to being owned by a billionaire conglomerate .

[tomphil]

53 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

Not even sure we could shift them at that price tbh...after that we are left with players worth a bag 'o chips.

What a mess,it's just a continuing financial clusterfcuk.

You really have to question the hair brained logic of shelling out 5 and 7 million fees on players you hope to profit on. Then in the next breath saying we have to rely on producing our own youngsters to sell.

Gullible idiots still lining others pockets.

[RoverCanada]

I suspect the Rovers accounts (which usually arrive in March) will be a touch better as the media income is lower than I would expect, suggesting the Championship TV payments continue on through the end of the year (not having been exhausted by March, where these accounts end). Similarly, last year the Rovers accounts displayed worse accounts compared to the VLL one given more time in League One in the former (£17m loss vs £14m loss; although looking now it's pretty much impossible to predict how the two differ!).

Some other observations:

- With £8.9m in outlays, that should be the combined initial cost of Adamstrong (initial £1.75m?), Rothwell (£300k?), Davenport (£200k?), Chapman (£100k?), a few youngsters (Durrant, Annesley, Lyons: maybe £50k, who knows...), and Brereton (inferring from the rest, he cost about £6.5m), perhaps plus any loan fees (if anything on top of wages for Reed and Palmer)

- Struggling to think how we booked £1.3m in player trading profit over that period. I can't think of any major sales over Mar 2018 - 2019 (before Raya, the last significant outgoings were maybe Wright in Jan 2018 and Steele and Mahoney in July 2017...). Perhaps some clauses in previous sales came good.

- Mentions our player trading in the summer 2019 was essentially a wash, so the sales of Raya and Nuttall may have been a bit higher than previously estimated given the apparent £5m outlay for Gallagher.

- While hardly significant in the grand scheme of things, our match income shows a decent improvement on the last time we were in the Championship: £3.6m vs £3.3m (vs only £2.9m in L1), reflecting fairly higher attendance. I also wonder if this could be higher in the Rovers accounts for the full year, but, again, I'm not sure how the accounting periods between the two differ!

- Staff costs right where I expected them at £23m, which puts our wage outlay as firmly below average in the Championship

- Our commercials aren't a game-changer, but bouncing back to £5m (after falling back to £4.4m our last year in the Championship) is a decently positive sign. £5m is actually relatively impressive for a low-revenue club (for example, looking at 2017/18, Sheffield United was only £3m, the likes of Barnsley, Millwall, Brentford, etc. only scrape £2m). I think this is due to relatively impressive work from our commercial team (decent shirt sponsorship) and Venky's pumping in what they 'fairly' can as advertising revenue

- Our 'other operating expenses' seem to fluctuate all over the place year-to-year, and at £12m these accounts' seem to be on the higher end, but looking back they appear to generally be higher for VLL, so that could be down to more like £10m in the Rovers accounts.

- With respect to FFP, I'm not sure how much our League One results 'matter'. I took a look a while ago and couldn't find any clear wording. It's clear for changing between the PL and Championship (£39m/year loss allowed for the former; £13m for the latter, excluding academy + other costs), but I don't think L1 is officially subject to FFP, as they run their own system where essentially any losses were fine as long as owners covered them (plus overall wage caps in L1, but they don't quite apply to a team coming down with Championship wages...). In sum, we may have more headroom than our £17m loss in L1 and apparent £19m loss last year suggest (plus we probably have a fair bit of our losses excluded due to academy expenditure)

- As some above are realising too, despite the devastating injury to Dack, we still have a decent amount of saleable assets: Lenihan, Travis, Nyambe, we'd still be able to recoup some for Gallagher in a fire sale (if perhaps at a trading loss), Rothwell if he picks it up a bit, some may snicker, but Evans would probably go for a decent six-figures, plus a few youngsters that could probably recoup okay amounts (JRC, Buckley, Butterworth, Davenport, etc. Although if we're suddenly selling them at well below their potential - excluding cases like Wright where it's off to a PL club - that would be a sign we're in trouble!). Maybe not the 'get out of FFP free card' that Dack represented and it would be a terrible sign if we're suddenly flocking a lot of the above, but we're not completely barren asset-wise (as we were a couple years ago...)

Edited December 31, 2019 by RoverCanada

[Exiled in Toronto]

An alternative interpretation is that our losses are entirely a consequence of being a mid-table Championship club rather than anything uniquely Venky-esque in how the club is run. (Image nicked off Twitter)

[Ozz]

1 hour ago, Herbie6590 said:

I’d venture Lenihan, Travis, Nyambe in that order is our new pecking order of saleable assets. 

For FFP purposes it’s not simply a case of adding up the last three years’ losses & hoping it comes to less than £39m of course. The running costs of the academy are an allowable expense for FFP so the development and onward sale of talent is the most likely income stream. Ticket sales aren’t growing, non-Matchday revenues opportunities are minimal, sponsorship in the Championship isn’t great, TV money is better than League One but nothing to write home about so player sales is the only other option.

I suspect that under their new (former Burnley) CEO, the EFL will soon stop the sale & leaseback of a stadium; a loophole closed. Sheff Weds hilarious legal action will bring that to a conclusion no doubt. 
Rovers recently advertised for a new head of commercial or marketing or something like that, with responsibility for growing revenues...having seen these figures, it’s no wonder. That role is probably the 2nd most important in the club right now. If the incumbent fails to deliver, we are going to struggle.

I don't know where extra income can be achieved though without promotion, which is a 5% chance right now. 

Currently just about getting blood from a stone, but looking at those numbers it would take huge increases in match day and commercial income to even come near to being enough.

154% wages to turnover?

Every tenner we take, we The V's have  to add £5.40 just to pay wages. Never mind anything else.

Madness and in any other walk of life we would not be allowed to continue trading. 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Ozz

[toogs]

50 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

If we need to grow matchday revenue, then we need to think of things to entice the fans, rather than put up obstacles....

(match day surcharge, ticket price vs SWFC, price of pies/booze, I could go on). 

The pathetic service at the food bars could be improved for a start. Pull a load of pints so they are ready to sell at half time. They couldn’t even sell me a beer i wanted to purchase at the last home game. I keep being told that football is a business but we can’t even get the fundamentals right. Shambolic. 

[rovers11]

Obviously concerning figures, mainly because it means we are at the mercy of Venkys to keep us going, but these figures are indicative of clubs in the championship who are dreaming of premier league riches. The majority of championship clubs are at the mercy of their owners to keep them afloat, that’s the story of modern football outside of the top flight. How many clubs are self sustainable? 

[rovers11]

25 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

An alternative interpretation is that our losses are entirely a consequence of being a mid-table Championship club rather than anything uniquely Venky-esque in how the club is run. (Image nicked off Twitter)

Good find. Illustrates the state of modern football outside of the premier league, making huge losses each year is not unique to just us. 

[Herbie6590]

Just now, rovers11 said:

Obviously concerning figures, mainly because it means we are at the mercy of Venkys to keep us going, but these figures are indicative of clubs in the championship who are dreaming of premier league riches. The majority of championship clubs are at the mercy of their owners to keep them afloat, that’s the story of modern football outside of the top flight. How many clubs are self sustainable? 

Not many o/s of the PL for sure. Accrington Stanley spring to mind.

[JBiz]

few questions for the money lads;

How much of the the previous 2 seasons losses been on funds / wages / costs of our academy?

Would the sanctions come in season 4 of the division? Ie 22/23? As it takes three seasons to work out losses?

[K-Hod]

6 minutes ago, toogs said:

The pathetic service at the food bars could be improved for a start. Pull a load of pints so they are ready to sell at half time. They couldn’t even sell me a beer i wanted to purchase at the last home game. I keep being told that football is a business but we can’t even get the fundamentals right. Shambolic. 

Could not agree more re the pint thing.

It’s almost like they don’t expect loads of people to buy stuff at half time....

The last two home games in JW upper, they have run out of pies before half time!

Edited December 31, 2019 by K-Hod