Venkys London Ltd accounts

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Do you work in finance or have a finance background? 

Why you ask Sir ?

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, tomphil said:

Why you ask Sir ?

Because of your comments, I am wondering if you know what you are talking about or just speculating 

[tomphil]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Because of your comments, I am wondering if you know what you are talking about or just speculating 

A bit of both

Everything in that last post is fact and easily checkable apart from the bit about profits going into Rovers to offset against tax, pure assumption on my part but a common practise in some large businesses.

If you look at their share price a few years ago it was basically flat lining but over the past 12 months it's shot up again. I don't think it's wild conspiracy to think that might be why their input went down to a trickle and the club had to start cashing it's assets in to keep going but now the input has picked up to healthy levels again on the back of trading going well.

Might all be down to something else but there is a pattern there and like any huge business the VH group will be reliant and their banks backing and when times are a bit leaner and money is needed elsewhere you'd think the first tap they'd turn off would be the oversees football club.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, tomphil said:

A bit of both

Everything in that last post is fact and easily checkable apart from the bit about profits going into Rovers to offset against tax, pure assumption on my part but a common practise in some large businesses.

If you look at their share price a few years ago it was basically flat lining but over the past 12 months it's shot up again. I don't think it's wild conspiracy to think that might be why their input went down to a trickle and the club had to start cashing it's assets in to keep going but now the input has picked up to healthy levels again on the back of trading going well.

Might all be down to something else but there is a pattern there and like any huge business the VH group will be reliant and their banks backing and when times are a bit leaner and money is needed elsewhere you'd think the first tap they'd turn off would be the oversees football club.

Ya, I have seen and read a bit about tax avoidance and it could very well be at play here. I wouldn't say it was the initial reason they bought the club though, just a handy bonus 

[Crimpshrine]

3 minutes ago, tomphil said:

when times are a bit leaner and money is needed elsewhere you'd think the first tap they'd turn off would be the oversees football club.

See what happens to Venky's shares when the beef ban is lifted in India. That legislation has been the reason for their share price rise over the last couple of years. 

[tomphil]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, I have seen and read a bit about tax avoidance and it could very well be at play here. I wouldn't say it was the initial reason they bought the club though, just a handy bonus 

That's exactly how i'd see it, first and foremost it was supposed to be an advertising tool that probably paid for itself although in the Prem it was something that still needed underpinning with extra cash so they must've known they'd have to throw a few rupees it's way regularly.

I think the last few years it's become a handy accounting tool by default but the difference is now with some costs reduced etc and it being run more sensibly a bit of the money put in is being put to good use instead of firing straight through the system.

At least it's an improvement on when I and plenty others thought it was one big laundry

[tomphil]

Just now, Crimpshrine said:

See what happens to Venky's shares when the beef ban is lifted in India. That legislation has been the reason for their share price rise over the last couple of years. 

Yeah I've been reading some analysts say don't buy the price will drop soon. I hope it doesn't drop in the summer

 

[OJRovers]

6 hours ago, PLJPB said:

Another £3.625m pumped in by Venkys on 21st March per companies house.

That's a total of almost £21m in the last 12 months!

 

Total Venkys London share capital now stands at £147m - a very costly venture for the Raos.

It defies logic. They wouldn't give a penny in the January 2017 transfer window to help save us from relegation. 12 months later we're in L1 they have opened the taps up.

The club will need another £20m AT LEAST if they want us to be top half of the Championship (if we go up!). Fingers crossed!

 

 

[Vinjay]

You're forgetting the wonderful FUP though even that wouldn't explain the sheer extent of starvation compared to now. Unless Venkys were briefly hypnotised by a member of the Walker Family Influenced Trust. 

At least 20 million and some other changes. Won't hold my breath on either though even with Venkys bizarre logic I can't see them spending next to nothing if promoted.

[Exiled in Toronto]

2 hours ago, OJRovers said:

It defies logic. They wouldn't give a penny in the January 2017 transfer window to help save us from relegation. 12 months later we're in L1 they have opened the taps up.

The club will need another £20m AT LEAST if they want us to be top half of the Championship (if we go up!). Fingers crossed!

 

 

Maybe it wasn’t logic but emotion. I get the impression they trust Tony a lot more than the previous two managers to spend their money well.

[JacknOry]

2 hours ago, OJRovers said:

It defies logic. They wouldn't give a penny in the January 2017 transfer window to help save us from relegation. 12 months later we're in L1 they have opened the taps up.

The club will need another £20m AT LEAST if they want us to be top half of the Championship (if we go up!). Fingers crossed!

 

 

20 million - not a chance lol. When they first came in they gave us a budget of 5 million and thought that would be enough to fire us into Europe.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Do we really need 20 million though?

How much have Cardiff spent? 

A hard working well drilled team will always do well. 

[Dreams of 1995]

20 million and you end up with overpriced, over paid players like Ross McCormack.

You don't need that amount of investment but you do at least need millions to spend. 5-10 million should see us put together a good squad.

That's if we go up, that is. If we don't I suspect this "investment", as some call it, will be recouped in other ways.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

20 million and you end up with overpriced, over paid players like Ross McCormack.

You don't need that amount of investment but you do at least need millions to spend. 5-10 million should see us put together a good squad.

That's if we go up, that is. If we don't I suspect this "investment", as some call it, will be recouped in other ways.

Ya, I think 10-12 million spent well would give us a squad capable of challenging for the play-offs 

Not going up doesn't bear thinking about. We wont see Dack in a Rovers shirt again anyway, thats for sure 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[tomphil]

Sustained sensible investment season on season it's what is needed not throwing huge wads at it because i'm still not convinced all snouts are out of the trough so every chance of repeating same mistakes. Holding on to what is worth holding on to and if they want to go or there's ridiculous offers a large part of that money needs reinvesting in direct replacements with similar potential not spreading around the squad on signing on fees for has beens off an agent or twos list let the manager and his people go after good young potential and actually pay for it.

Basically follow a plan over a three year period and stick to it where possible both on and off the pitch and see where it leads. People expecting a wild spending spree and an instant challenge for the Prem IF we go up are clutching at straws I think.

Edited March 23, 2018 by tomphil

[JHRover]

How much have Cardiff spent to be on the cusp of the Premier League?

How much have PNE spent to be on the cusp of the play-offs?

How much have Millwall spent to rocket up the league and be in with a chance of the play-offs?

How much have Sunderland spent on their squad to be going straight through to League One?

The clubs that are stable (ownership, executive, playing staff) that make sensible, thought out decisions, signings and appointments, will survive or thrive on limited funding. That doesn't mean spending millions for the sake of it, it doesn't even mean you need to keep hold of your best players every year, it doesn't mean you have to keep a manager in place for the sake of 'stability'. It means that people at the club know what the aim is, know where they stand, know what is happening and are able to get on with it to try and do the best they can.

The clubs that are clueless, badly managed, throw money down the drain and have a revolving door of personnel will fail. For the first group see Cardiff, PNE, Bolton, Millwall, Brentford and previously Dingles. For the second club see ourselves, Sunderland, Birmingham, Hull and to a less disastrous extent Leeds and Forest.

Can we made the transition across that divide? Possibly, but I think it is too early to say that. Winning games is a nice, unusual feeling but does have the effect of papering over cracks and putting other issues and concerns onto the backburner. It can be done and hopefully the appointment of Waggott is a step towards that but its a long way off being sustained.

[Bigdoggsteel]

20 minutes ago, JHRover said:

How much have Cardiff spent to be on the cusp of the Premier League?

How much have PNE spent to be on the cusp of the play-offs?

How much have Millwall spent to rocket up the league and be in with a chance of the play-offs?

How much have Sunderland spent on their squad to be going straight through to League One?

The clubs that are stable (ownership, executive, playing staff) that make sensible, thought out decisions, signings and appointments, will survive or thrive on limited funding. That doesn't mean spending millions for the sake of it, it doesn't even mean you need to keep hold of your best players every year, it doesn't mean you have to keep a manager in place for the sake of 'stability'. It means that people at the club know what the aim is, know where they stand, know what is happening and are able to get on with it to try and do the best they can.

The clubs that are clueless, badly managed, throw money down the drain and have a revolving door of personnel will fail. For the first group see Cardiff, PNE, Bolton, Millwall, Brentford and previously Dingles. For the second club see ourselves, Sunderland, Birmingham, Hull and to a less disastrous extent Leeds and Forest.

Can we made the transition across that divide? Possibly, but I think it is too early to say that. Winning games is a nice, unusual feeling but does have the effect of papering over cracks and putting other issues and concerns onto the backburner. It can be done and hopefully the appointment of Waggott is a step towards that but its a long way off being sustained.

That's it in a nutshell 

[47er]

QPR belong in that second group as well.

18 hours ago, tomphil said:

Yeah I've been reading some analysts say don't buy the price will drop soon. I hope it doesn't drop in the summer

 

I'm conflicted here! 

[Vinjay]

48 minutes ago, JHRover said:

 

The clubs that are stable (ownership, executive, playing staff) that make sensible, thought out decisions, signings and appointments, will survive or thrive on limited funding. That doesn't mean spending millions for the sake of it, it doesn't even mean you need to keep hold of your best players every year, it doesn't mean you have to keep a manager in place for the sake of 'stability'. It means that people at the club know what the aim is, know where they stand, know what is happening and are able to get on with it to try and do the best they can.

Not indefinitely and the prime example of that is the illusion of stability under the previous owners. Williams being incapable of being relegated has been proven (well close enough) to be nonsense and the club wouldn't have survived under such restraints for ever. If Venkys want to get back to the EPL fast (especially if they might see that as a chance to cut losses though kinda contradicts my argument) then they will almost certainly need to spend something. I've already made an argument for removing Mowbray in the summer whatever happens and a new manager will probably want something more than "limited" funding. He probably won't be fired if promoted anyway and whatever happens the financial backing remains to be seen. If someone can't be trusted to spend a larger budget can they be trusted with something smaller? OK some managers actually seem to work better with smaller budgets (have to put more thought into their decisions, etc) so there's an argument there perhaps.

Tan wrote off about 70 million didn't he some time ago? That's hardly nothing. QPR of course have had their FUP problems (and I simply can't say that's right because the damn rules shouldn't exist) and with likes of Preston North End you could argue a bit more investment is what they need to make a final push. They have lost 2 playoff finals so they could have got into PL via that route but a bit more money might have pushed them all the way. Well probably not in 2001 as Rovers and Fulham were clearly the best 2 teams in the league and they couldn't really have bridged that gap. You have to remember too that Hemmings has still subsidised the club to an extent even if he won't break the bank. Which is fine because its his choice not decided by a greedy family influencing a trust fund.

Neil still has upside having only been sacked once (though he's one step away from looking like a typical one EPL promotion wonder) so maybe he will take that final step. Granted they have made some bad decisions in the past with likes of Darren Ferguson, Westley (who seems like a nutcase from what I've read) and of course Derek Shaw who shouldn't be allowed inside Darwen AFC never mind a Championship club.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Vinjay17

[Norbert Rassragr]

I think Westley has just more or less relegated my home town team, Barnet. Now Martin Allen has taken over for the 5th time.

[tomphil]

31 minutes ago, 47er said:

QPR belong in that second group as well.

I'm conflicted here! 

It wouldn't have the desired effect

[AAK]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Do we really need 20 million though?

How much have Cardiff spent? 

A hard working well drilled team will always do well. 

They did spend £6million on Gary Madine from Bolton in January, awful lot of money for an awful player.

[OJRovers]

We’ll need £20million just to stand still. Despite appearing to shed a lot of high earners, there’s still been a cash deficit of £1.5m a month this last 12 months. That’s with only limited spend on Dack etc transfer fees.

I think a lot of people thought the cash drain would be massively reduced in League One, but appears not.

Quite where all that money is going it is difficult to say.

[Bigdoggsteel]

5 minutes ago, OJRovers said:

We’ll need £20million just to stand still. Despite appearing to shed a lot of high earners, there’s still been a cash deficit of £1.5m a month this last 12 months. That’s with only limited spend on Dack etc transfer fees.

I think a lot of people thought the cash drain would be massively reduced in League One, but appears not.

Quite where all that money is going it is difficult to say.

Wages. Not that difficult to say at all 

[Vinjay]

...and general operative costs.