[Archived] Rovers v Wigan

[JHRover]

At the end of the day this has been a recurring theme all season. We've often got away with it, but it is clearly our Achilles heel, and the better sides have exposed it regularly.

Its why despite our array of attacking ability we're neck and neck with a Shrewsbury side with nowhere near the depth or ability in their ranks. The difference is they are built on a mean defence and goalkeeper that doesn't make mistakes and keeps clean sheets. 2 clean sheets since Xmas isn't good enough for a team trying to get promoted and before anyone starts yes I know it doesn't matter if we outscore the opposition but it is an area of concern that should be getting a lot of attention in training as it could be our downfall. The fact that it is still such a problem for us suggests that either it isn't being worked on, that work isn't coming to fruition or that the people involved aren't able to overcome it.

The opposition will always have set pieces in dangerous positions where they can launch balls into the box and cause chaos with our defence. It doesn't matter who you are playing or how dominant you are.

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

Like most at 2-0 I felt we needed 3, that’s OUR team at the moment. 

Indeed so. Defending has been our Achilles heel for the entire season and continues to be so. It's often individual mistakes that cost us, because we have players who are liable to lose concentration. Williams lost the ball on a silly square pass at least two times yesterday, might have even been three. Nyambe has a lot of good raw attributes but is poor technically which can cause us problems. Raya is a decent shot stopper (as most goalkeepers are) but just atrocious when it comes to crosses, corners and free kicks. He needs somebody to work pretty hard on that with him in training, it's something he can improve on but hasn't so far this season and the question has to be asked as to why. It's not like this is a new criticism. What is our goalkeeping coach doing? Certainly not improving Raya's weaknesses. 

Our main plus this season is our attacking. As we saw yesterday we have some sublimely skilled players which means most of the time we can outscore the opposition. The fact we have to score 3 to feel safe is a match tells its own story though and it isn't fair on the likes of Dack, Graham and Armstrong to have to keep bailing out our defence. I don't think any formation is going to fix the problem, it's a personnel issue and one that will need to be addressed in the summer. If we do get promoted and go into next season with Raya, Nyambe and Williams as first choice players we will really struggle. At this point I'd almost be inclined to add Smallwood to that list because he's been poor for some time now and if he's struggling for form in League One can we rely on him to make the step up? 

Still, first we have to actually get promoted so let's hope our attacking players stay fit and on form. I think we have enough to get by this season but Tony needs to sort it out next season. 

[JAL]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I just said he looks out of his depth. He needs loaning out next year hes not ready for first team football he was totally ineffective again.

It was in no way a penalty, the main 2 mistakes led to both teams second goals. Quit with the conspiracy theories and winding you up rubbish, he was just equally incompetence. We lost our lead and it was nothing to do with the referee.

Joe Nuttall is several notches down on Samuel playing wise and we know where we stand with Samuel.

Sell him off to Everton ?

 

11 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Hes done really well for the under 23s but apart from a couple of important tap ins in his first couple of games, since hes looked well out of his depth.

I think he has done enough to suggest he could be good in the future based on his eye for goal but not now.

Im also not convinced by his attitude, like Samuel he comes across as disinterested alot of the time and he pushed someone really petulantly in the build up to a free kick yesterday.

Id have him playing for the u23s and loan him out next season to a club in League 1 or 2.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Ya, I was a bit shocked by the number of times Williams gave the ball away yesterday. I thought Nyambe did ok in fairness. I have no idea what is after happening Smallwood. He was undropabble  at one point , but now I wouldn't be surprised if he was left out 

[DE.]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I thought Nyambe did ok in fairness.

He didn't do anything majorly wrong yesterday, but you can see when he controls and runs with the ball he's just not naturally comfortable with it. Again it's a weakness that can be improved upon but that's down to our coaching staff. 

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Having seen a replay of their second goal yesterday it confirmed what I thought at the time. Raya commits the cardinal goalkeeping sin of not reading the flight of the ball and he simply didn't move his feet to get his body behind what was a tame, waist high ball. He then flapped an arm at it when he realised where the ball was. If the ball had taken a deflection I could have understood his lack of mobility but it didn't. 

He has a mistake in him in most games, some cost us and he gets away with some.

Raya also had a clear sight of the flight of the ball and time to decide what to do. He more or less stood still and did not react. A pace or two forward and he would have caught the ball or been fouled.

The reason he had clear sight was due to our awful set up on defending that set piece. Just one defender or indeed one of our shorter players closer to the post would have nodded it out. Bennett tried but was moving from a more central position and mistimed his jump.

[Boz]

Really pleased with the first half and then the first ten minutes of the second half when I thought it was important to keep the score at 2-0.

I'm not being critical of TM or his team selection and hindsight is a wonderful thing, plus football is about opinions, but...

We lost the midfield as the game wore on, we were hustled and bustled by a combative Wigan outfit, managed by a thoroughly unpleasant individual, my heart went out to the fourth official, nobody deserves an afternoon of Cook. The bookings of Evans and Bennett combined with Smallwood 's yellow card avoidance now for weeks, which has taken much out of his game, ultimately defined the last 30 minutes. Evans a stupid challenge in the corner in front of Wigan fans, going nowhere and with Williams there for cover too, Bennett's was a soft yellow by a soft referee, if that was a yellow, Morsy and Powell should have had at least two each! All three midfield players seemed concerned about letting their team down by collecting a second yellow card, thus reducing their combative first half displays.

In my opinion it required changes on 60 minutes, Vaughan had been brought on and was impacting on the match. We might have gone a couple of ways, bring on Payne for Evans to look to retain the ball better, or seek to match their battling aspect, by bringing on a Downing (into the back 4 and Mulgrew into midfield) or Conway (with Bennett into midfield where he's been very effective of late) though I'd have had Travis on the bench.  The eventual Nuttall and Antonsson  were too late and misjudged, I thought DG was doing a sterling job keeping their defence occupied and didn't appear to be tiring, those two centre halves were not for Nuttall, plus Antonsson contributed little too.

That being said 2-2 was no disaster, just disappointing after appearing in control, ended frustrated that their management seemed to better effect the result mid-game than ours.

Final thought, I've not seen any replays, but was there a push in their box that warranted a penalty for us?

[AllRoverAsia]

2 minutes ago, DE. said:

He didn't do anything majorly wrong yesterday, but you can see when he controls and runs with the ball he's just not naturally comfortable with it. Again it's a weakness that can be improved upon but that's down to our coaching staff. 

His running in a crouched position which he also assumes on defending against attacking forwards and at set pieces is a flaw that could be coached out of him.

His long ball distribution, like Williams, is bad and not much better than hoofball.

[tomphil]

If we had a real solid defensive base then with our attack we'd surely have romped it but the team is still a work in progress and it won't change now till the end of the season. My biggest concern yesterday was the lack of subs to change the game or just freshen things up and change it about when we were wilting.

That for me had as much bearing on the game as anything when Wigan were clearly beginning to get the upper hand, inviting pressure and set piece after set piece something was going to give and Wigan are good at delivering those.

[BlackburnEnd75]

8 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Lot of criticism of Raya flying about, I haven't seen the goals again on the box yet but my initial reaction was he dropped a real clanger with the second goal and this match of all matches was not the one in which to make a glaring mistake.

That said, overall I think he is a really good keeper who just needs a few rough edges knocking off with more experience. Whilst he tends to make minor errors I don't think he has actually cost us many points or goals apart from one other earlier in the season when he tried to be too clever dribbling it out. Neither is it all one way, he's saved us a number of times this season with outstanding stops and it's only two games ago he won us the three points with a brilliant one on one block late on against Walsall. However these instances rarely seem to get mentioned, only his mistakes. We have far more pressing problems than Raya imo, the main one being that we only seem able to perform for 45 minutes at the moment meaning that our goal is under constant pressure for the other half.

I'd agree that we have more pressing issues than Raya, and I think he has a lot of potential. There's no point dropping him now as he doesn't have the competition. For me we need to get a more experienced goalkeeping coach and send the other lad to the under 23's as he is making enough progress on his weaknesses. Then in the summer we can go after some competition for him. 

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

If you were chaddyathletic you'd be livid about the second goal and Evans not being sent off, they were going mad at him first half.

Watching the highlights I'm not convinced about the penalty claim however he was giving those fouls every other time so should have pointed to the spot.

One decision I couldn't work out was a free kick and booking Nyambe after some brilliant strength and awareness and simply easing their man off the ball fairly 

You mean when Nyambe and Vaughan challenge for the ball?

2 hours ago, Paul said:

Stuart are you talking about the two handed push in Dack’s back on the left side, as you face goal, of the penalty area?

This is the only penalty shout I saw and for me it was 100% nailed on penalty. Probably the clearest at Ewood this season. 

Exactly agreed. 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I just said he looks out of his depth. He needs loaning out next year hes not ready for first team football he was totally ineffective again.

It was in no way a penalty, the main 2 mistakes led to both teams second goals. Quit with the conspiracy theories and winding you up rubbish, he was just equally incompetence. We lost our lead and it was nothing to do with the referee.

Look at Stuart, Paul and Tom comments about the pen claim. 

Thats your view on ref not mine. 

[JAL]

54 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Outfield players make mistakes all over the pitch but goalkeepers cannot because their errors usually end up in the back of the net. Unfortunately Raya does make some very basic errors and it's one reason why I have no confidence in him at all - I dread crosses, free kicks and corners going across our box because it's a lottery as to whether he deals with them like a proper goalkeeper should. 

In defence of Raya, it would only be fair for him to have twelve months under a top quality goalkeeping coach instead of someone with of a lower quality background like he currently has.

If I'm the keeper I'm expecting my defenders to attack the ball andclear it not allowing it to come in.

[47er]

6 minutes ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

I'd agree that we have more pressing issues than Raya, and I think he has a lot of potential. There's no point dropping him now as he doesn't have the competition. For me we need to get a more experienced goalkeeping coach and send the other lad to the under 23's as he is making enough progress on his weaknesses. Then in the summer we can go after some competition for him. 

I haven't read one post suggesting Raya be dropped. Everyone realises there isn't a suitable replacement. 

That is the point!

[JAL]

11 hours ago, Paul said:

Nuttall simply isn’t good enough to be on the bench. Can’t hold the ball up, poor first touch, gets out muscled in the air. 

He may be able to do it for the U23s, I’ve never seen them, but he’s not good enough for the first team.

His agent has done a good job by finding him a contract at Rovers plonked him in our under 23's that was sadly lacking in strikers got the club to sell him to the supporter base and the local Telegraph man, lots of positive publicity for scoring a couple of goals against kids that probably won't t ever play first team professional football then put him in a couple of easy first team games, bag a goal, loads more publicity and hey, sold sign here Joe.

We've been done again unless his agent can get a big juicy fee for him in the summer.

 

[G Somerset Rover]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

In fairness - that's his job!

Touche, Tom. As I say, just a little OTT for me. 

As for those advocating dropping Smallwood or Williams - TM won't do it. I said when Bell came in that he wouldn't drop Williams and I've been proved right. For me, Bell has to be starting home games as a minimum.

[den]

2 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Raya has had a charmed career so far. He emerged as a contender when we had Steele as first choice and now he no no serious competition for a starting place.

He is weak in many of the attributes you liik for in a keeper. Yes he is decent at reaction stops, not much else.

It can be no fun being in defence knowing he is manning the last chance saloon.

And some are saying he does not need a specialist coach. Pure bunkum.

Anyway he is what we have so good luck to him.

On my youtube wanderings yesterday, pre match, came across footage of Pat Jennings leaping to save of high inswinging corners and catching the ball cleanly one-handed. With Raya just catch the ball and less palming.

He did catch a few yesterday but they were not high balls.

Yes, Raya does make some great saves, but every goalkeeper does otherwise they wouldn’t be in the team. The difference between a great or good keeper, and a bad keeper is the number of mistakes they make over a season. I’ll let you guys tell me about that, but I’ve certainly never rated the guy. He doesn’t control his area nor does he organise the players in front of him. The back four can’t really take confidence with him behind them. 

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, den said:

Yes, Raya does make some great saves, but every goalkeeper does otherwise they wouldn’t be in the team. The difference between a great or good keeper, and a bad keeper is the number of mistakes they make over a season. I’ll let you guys tell me about that, but I’ve certainly never rated the guy. He doesn’t control his area nor does he organise the players in front of him. The back four can’t really take confidence with him behind them. 

TBH Raya is a major reason I fear the playoffs and a Wembley palming.

[Tom]

24 minutes ago, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Touche, Tom. As I say, just a little OTT for me. 

As for those advocating dropping Smallwood or Williams - TM won't do it. I said when Bell came in that he wouldn't drop Williams and I've been proved right. For me, Bell has to be starting home games as a minimum.

I keep banging the same drum but I like Raya and think he has a big money move somewhere in his future but he needs the right coaching now at this age.

 

Agree on Bell, Williams offered us no security yesterday and nothing going forward.

[Rogerb]

It has been said stop Dack you stop Rovers the same could be said of Wigan and Nik Powell. Very noticeable yesterday that with a change of position to deeper in the mid field from half time how he ran that second half until going off injured. Also seemed to concentrate more on playing football than having a fight. Once he had gone off Wigan didn't have the same drive for me and we came back into the game

[arbitro]

18 minutes ago, Tom said:

I keep banging the same drum but I like Raya and think he has a big money move somewhere in his future but he needs the right coaching now at this age.

 

Agree on Bell, Williams offered us no security yesterday and nothing going forward.

I don't buy the coaching aspect in relation to the second Wigan goal. Any keeper with a modicum of nous would have got to the flight of the ball and simply caught it. If he has to be coached to such an elementary level he should be nowhere near professional football.

[Bigdoggsteel]

He is a dislikeable man 

https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/latics/cook-admits-wigan-athletic-comeback-was-fan-tastic-1-9047111

[Hasta]

8 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Give Nuttall a proper chance before writing him off 

Ref gave Wigan alot of dodgy decisions that werent at all. Give them more than us. Miss Dack penalty claim. 

So you could say he was Biased or just poor or both. Or it just be typical league 1 football. 

Did neither any favours? Are you winding me or something? Gave them most decisions 

 

4 hours ago, Paul said:

Stuart are you talking about the two handed push in Dack’s back on the left side, as you face goal, of the penalty area?

This is the only penalty shout I saw and for me it was 100% nailed on penalty. Probably the clearest at Ewood this season. 

 It's not a penalty at all. Have you watched it back? Dack also has his left arm out and is trying to grab a bit of the guys shirt. There is nothing in it.

As bad as the ref was, when people keep banging on about the penalty it just makes you sound desperate to find fault in the ref.

He was poor and refereed the second half completely different from the first half. He gave a lot of fouls in the second half which he was letting go in the first half and yet we didnt learn. I've not seen the free kick for the equaliser which looked soft but the one big error was the foul he gave for Nyambe. However I've seen worse this season and he certainly wasn't the reason why we let Wigan boss the second half.

 

[G Somerset Rover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

He is a dislikeable man 

https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/latics/cook-admits-wigan-athletic-comeback-was-fan-tastic-1-9047111

The guy needs an FA fine/banishment to the stands or two to put him in line. He was the same at the DW earlier in the season; always getting in the 4th officials ear and intimidating them. As it is, in League One he just gets away with it and I think he had an influence yesterday. He’s like a big kid.

[Hasta]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

In fairness - that's his job!

It is, but you can't quantify how many saves in a game he should or shouldn't make. Friedel made outstanding saves which won us points. When he left, there were shots beating Robbo which, whilst wasn't the keepers fault, you suspected Friedel would possibly have got down to.

Same with Raya. We could have a keeper who doesn't make a mess of coming for crosses like Raya does but who simply doesn't save as many shots as him. You'd never say he was making a mistake but overall he may cost us more points by not making the reaction saves that Raya does.

We have a great shot stopper who is suspect on crosses. He can be improved upon, and I don't think he will end up a top level keeper, but we could have far worse.

[JHRover]

Cook cut his management teeth in the backwaters of non-league and Ireland and aside from this season and a season at Chesterfield has never been above the 4th division, despite being 51 years old. Perhaps his circus act on the touchline is more common in those divisions as he was certainly a one-off from other managers at Ewood this season.

Makes me laugh when he's portrayed in the media as some bright up and coming recently unearthed gem of a young manager. He's been around for ages in the doldrums of football. Gary Caldwell won this league with Wigan a couple of years ago and where is he now?

Cook's always been the same, a nasty piece of work who relentlessly bullies the officials through games, some people get taken in by the façade, bit like with Guardiola who is another one who behaves like a spoilt brat the minute things don't go his way yet has the media eating out of his hands.

If people are baffled by the referee seemingly doing a complete about turn in the 2nd half look no further than that idiot in the dugout and his hideous behaviour.

I made the point on twitter yesterday that some managers know how to behave and some don't. Paul Hurst conducted himself as I would want a manager to behave when Shrewsbury came to Ewood. Composed, dignified, respectful. Paul Cook up and down like an embarrassing dad on a Sunday morning Under 13s game. Amazes me how anyone can admire or respect that sort of thing.