[Archived] Rovers v Wigan

[JAL]

On 06/03/2018 at 10:46, Lancaster Rover said:

That's gamesmanship and fair play to Cooke and his team for using it to get an advantage. There was nothing stopping Mowbray being a pain the ref's backside all game, John Coleman and his team at Accrington have used this modus operandi for years and it works for them. Management teams do what they have to succeed, we need to toughen up a bit, "oooh nasty man was shouty at the referee". It's  not that long since Hughes and co were doing the same for us. They used to have a carefully orchestrated plan where they would take it in turns to get into the 4th man, it was like a revolving line of questioning. 

The one thing we showed on Sunday was naievity, both in our approach to the ref and the way we played in the second half, Wigan on the other hand showed real professionalism and got the job done. We need to wise up a bit.

Mowbray's soft centres!  No potential champions surrender a two nil home advantage at the business end of the season.

It's pretty clear to see why Mowbray has rarely ever won anything in the game drawing at home to the likes Paul Cook shows just how far have we fallen.  

Just hope Chapman comeback adds a spur to the team but for Christ sake Raya and Nyambe in defence fills me with dread.

[Vinjay]

Certainly I wouldn't mind a manager who takes a no nonsense approach but there's different ways of interpreting it. Brian Clough was brash and outspoken but he didn't stand for abusing referees. Well unless it was something blatantly suspicious like Anderlecht's match fixing against Forest. I think you can enforce discipline and win respect but there's a line between a disciplinarian and a bully. Clough may have crossed that line with some people (he regretted his treatment of Justin Fashanu for instance who was terrified of Clough) but mostly it damn well worked! Then you have Ferguson bullying referees, press, etc and I guess that worked for him (unfortunately) mainly because the press people he abused didn't stand up to him enough incase they lost privileges. Cook can treat his own players however the hell he likes (if they react positively) but referees shouldn't stand for it. 

Also you have to look back at the managers Mowbray played for. I'm not going to run through them all (I might be able to take a guess as I know who he played for but the exact dates aren't etched in my mind) though George Burley was one and I don't remember him being particularly aggressive. I know he was a tough defender but don't know how verbal he was towards referees right in the midst of battle, etc. Players that become managers I'm sure don't pretend to be something they aren't (otherwise they will fail) but they probably do pick up certain traits.

Personally I'm fine with managers as long as they generally get the best out of their players. If they do that via enforcing or not makes no real difference to me. Dalglish didn't rule with a iron fist. Souness obviously would speak out against refs and discipline his players but he wasn't incessantly yelling in referees ears every 2 minutes. Hughes wasn't spitting venom all the time (he was quiet and reserved though if he thought a ref was poor he would say so) and he didn't really bully his players. His playing style was more combative really than any over the top touchline antics. Hodgson didn't generally seem to lose it with refs apart from the Chelsea 4-3 game where the stress seemed to cause a temporary psychotic break. Certainly Roy had a temper (look at the stuff Gallacher mentioned paranoia towards the end of his time here believing planes were spying on the training sessions or something) and he's admitted he had some arrogance back then. I thought he was great at the time though looking back older and wiser his mistakes are more evident. Still think without that crippling injury list or a whole season he wouldn't have had Rovers relegated. To suggest he's a bad manager (and he damn sure isn't a bad coach whatever your definition might be) is nonsense.

 Kidd was a disaster as we know and I do remember him swearing repeatedly (since I was sitting in the JW lower) in a pre season game with Liverpool. That was pre season! I can't remember if he was swearing at the ref but he was swearing at the players. Bit surprising in a way because you don't get that impression from him on screen. Certainly not as an assistant where his qualities belong. Ince of course has always had an obnoxious side and I don't even want to run through the past few years! I'm sick of hearing about Allardyce (had another argument with Thenodrog yesterday) so can't be bothered commenting on him.

What I wouldn't mind is a no nonsense owner. I'm sure everyone has their thoughts about what they would do especially considering the current ownership! I would run the club in a no nonsense way and micro manage it from top to bottom. That's how you filter out the snakes like Agnew and control the mentality of the club. Jack didn't intimidate anyone or dictatorial though certainly people knew he was in charge. Look at the managers selected every single one had Jack's fingerprints over it. He might have asked the opinion of others (I think he asked the players before Kidd was appointed though they are probably the last people who should be asked in some ways) but he didn't need extra persuasion. He had made his mind up. Of course Jack wasn't there day to day and his money was enough of an advantage already. Lower league clubs though need all the advantages they can get though I would still do things "my way or the highway" at the top level.

What I can't stand is management weakness especially when its being tentative, etc as Mowbray's been at times. I can't stand anything fearful from a manager there's no excuse for that at any level. You don't have to be loud, brash and aggressive to leave an impression you have no fear. It anything Cook appears to be masking it with his obnoxious behaviour towards referees, etc especially if its more evident against a team like Rovers than someone like Walsall or Northampton. I've already given my thoughts on Mowbray and what my future plans would be but he does not hide his weaknesses well.

[oldjamfan1]

Just now, Vinjay17 said:

Certainly I wouldn't mind a manager who takes a no nonsense approach but there's different ways of interpreting it. Brian Clough was brash and outspoken but he didn't stand for abusing referees. Well unless it was something blatantly suspicious like Anderlecht's match fixing against Forest. I think you can enforce discipline and win respect but there's a line between a disciplinarian and a bully. Clough may have crossed that line with some people (he regretted his treatment of Justin Fashanu for instance who was terrified of Clough) but mostly it damn well worked! Then you have Ferguson bullying referees, press, etc and I guess that worked for him (unfortunately) mainly because the press people he abused didn't stand up to him enough incase they lost privileges. Cook can treat his own players however the hell he likes (if they react positively) but referees shouldn't stand for it. 

Also you have to look back at the managers Mowbray played for. I'm not going to run through them all (I might be able to take a guess as I know who he played for but the exact dates aren't etched in my mind) though George Burley was one and I don't remember him being particularly aggressive. I know he was a tough defender but don't know how verbal he was towards referees right in the midst of battle, etc. Players that become managers I'm sure don't pretend to be something they aren't (otherwise they will fail) but they probably do pick up certain traits.

Personally I'm fine with managers as long as they generally get the best out of their players. If they do that via enforcing or not makes no real difference to me. Dalglish didn't rule with a iron fist. Souness obviously would speak out against refs and discipline his players but he wasn't incessantly yelling in referees ears every 2 minutes. Hughes wasn't spitting venom all the time (he was quiet and reserved though if he thought a ref was poor he would say so) and he didn't really bully his players. His playing style was more combative really than any over the top touchline antics. Hodgson didn't generally seem to lose it with refs apart from the Chelsea 4-3 game where the stress seemed to cause a temporary psychotic break. Kidd was a disaster as we know and I do remember him swearing repeatedly (since I was sitting in the JW lower) in a pre season game with Liverpool. That was pre season! I can't remember if he was swearing at the ref but he was swearing at the players. Bit surprising in a way because you don't get that impression from him on screen. Certainly not as an assistant where his qualities belong. Ince of course has always had an obnoxious side and I don't even want to run through the past few years! 

What I wouldn't mind is a no nonsense owner. I'm sure everyone has their thoughts about what they would do especially considering the current ownership! I would run the club in a no nonsense way and micro manage it from top to bottom. That's how you filter out the snakes like Agnew and control the mentality of the club. Jack didn't intimidate anyone or dictatorial though certainly people knew he was in charge. Look at the managers selected every single one had Jack's fingerprints over it. He might have asked the opinion of others (I think he asked the players before Kidd was appointed though they are probably the last people who should be asked in some ways) but he didn't need extra persuasion. He had made his mind up. Of course Jack wasn't there day to day and his money was enough of an advantage already. Lower league clubs though need all the advantages they can get though I would still do things "my way or the highway" at the top level.

He was when he had a drink inside him. Which was most of the time.....

[Hanks]

On 05/03/2018 at 14:07, RevidgeBlue said:

It is possible, but I'm not sure how it can be proven the likes of poor old Jeff Astle wouldn't have contracted dementia anyway, or if the incidence of former footballers with dementia is any greater than in the rest of the general population.

  It wasn't straightforward dementia or Alzheimer's disease that did for Jeff, a further examination in 2014 showed that he had been killed by chronic traumatic encephalopathy. A disease caused by repeated head trauma and first noted in Boxers.   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27654892

[47er]

21 hours ago, Tom said:

I can't believe anyone above the age of 12 would seriously think it's some conspiracy against us and biased refs rather than just incompetence. If only we had VAR maybe the 'definite' penalty would have been given ?

A biased ref would have disallowed our second and sent Evans off for a second booking in the corner. 

Sure we'll have this debate again before the season is out we must be due a Trevor Kettle appearance soon 

Additionally I do not believe Dack should have won a penalty. He clearly had hold of the Wigan defender's shirt. So on major decisions the ref didn't do too badly. Plenty would have disallowed our second goal(wrongly in my view). I think blaming the ref is easier for Chaddy that facing the real facts, team has weaknesses, manager has short-comings.

[Vinjay]

2 hours ago, 47er said:

Additionally I do not believe Dack should have won a penalty. He clearly had hold of the Wigan defender's shirt. So on major decisions the ref didn't do too badly. Plenty would have disallowed our second goal(wrongly in my view). I think blaming the ref is easier for Chaddy that facing the real facts, team has weaknesses, manager has short-comings.

Indeed. You only have to look at his suggestions for WBA next season too. All British managers (and nothing remarkable personality wise either) as if they are the only ones who can take a club up from the Championship. Narrow minded, simplistic thinking. You have to remember though Chaddy and others look at it from the perspective that "Mowbray's a nice man, he's doing well" not thinking a few steps ahead. If Venkys are willing to provide the means to take those steps (can't say I'll hold my breath as I feel funding Mowbray in the summer over proven/potentially better candidates would be a mistake) then go right ahead and do it. I guess it would be a bad PR move initially but if the replacement truly seemed logical (or at least a logical gamble on an up and comer put forward by the sort of people who noticed Rodgers potential even after his Reading firing) then I probably wouldn't denounce it. 

Its no wonder the leeches like Kean. Anderson, Agnew, etc feasted off Rovers. I didn't say it over and over (I preferred to focus on potential positives of a takeover though even on "liberation day" I said success wasn't guaranteed but admittedly let my pride cloud judgement over the subsequent months) but can remember saying that the whole "family club" rubbish was a breeding ground for sharks. It was a sign of weakness there had to be more ruthlessness throughout the club. That's what I said when Allardyce was sacked (initially believing Kean was just a caretaker) though my hatred of the Walkers (and the family influenced trust) runs so deep I convinced myself Kean seemed like a decent guy. Of course deep down I had reservations about his backstabbing, etc and relationship with Anderson but was hoping others would be proved wrong as they were with the Walkers. To be fair when Desai showed up at that Tottenham game, etc the reception wasn't that hostile so it wasn't just me. That game against Liverpool was outstanding too and one of Benjani's goals had nothing to do with how poor Liverpool were. I really thought and still believe that Rovers were truly excellent that night. Whereas any other good Kean results especially the one at Old Trafford were an absolute fluke or against average midtable/relegation candidate teams.

I'm not saying Mowbray's a leech or a shark. I don't think his fiercest critics would say that. He's just got weaknesses which are far too evident. That's something I can't stand especially when he displays them openly with certain comments, etc. Others at least do a better job of hiding them but I guess since Mowbray's a nice, honest man it probably adds to the appeal for some. Almost like its somehow admirable to come across weak and fearful at times if you're sincere about it. There's a fine line between confidence/arrogance as I've said but my examples of other past managers, etc have already been discussed.

[philipl]

3 hours ago, 47er said:

Additionally I do not believe Dack should have won a penalty. He clearly had hold of the Wigan defender's shirt. So on major decisions the ref didn't do too badly. Plenty would have disallowed our second goal(wrongly in my view). I think blaming the ref is easier for Chaddy that facing the real facts, team has weaknesses, manager has short-comings.

I think there are two different incidents. There was a clear but crafty shove in the back of Dack at 2-1 in the second half which prevented a scoring opportunity which for sure would have been a penalty if it had been spotted.

[Bigdoggsteel]

A few rose tinted spectacles here. I don't see how Dack should have gotten a penalty for that to be honest 

[Oldgregg86]

On 3/5/2018 at 01:36, K-Hod said:

I suspect this won’t be a popular opinion, but allow it...

I don’t think we actually played that well today, but first half we were simply ruthless and scored our first two chances.

I think that we’ve wanted a stopper of a midfielder for so long that Smallwood has been over-rated and that he’s been terrible for a while now. 

Teams have come to notice that if you stop Dack, you stop Rovers. We often rely on the quality of him, Graham or Mulgrew to get us out of jail and to be fair, it has been working all season. I’m just praying that this approach gets us automatic promotion as we won’t go up through the play offs IMO. We don’t relish a physical battle and it really shows that Mulgrew and Lenihan are converted midfielders playing at centre half a lot of the time. For all Mulgrew’s goals, I would love him to be more of a dirty bastard! 

If a team adopts the physical approach, we really struggle to cope and it’s been an issue for a while in my view. Like I’ve said, I just hope we can get over the line doing as we do. 

I agree with all of that and sums up how I felt the whole campaign and I suspect how alot of the people who couldn't fully back TM at the start of the season feel. However I'm really struggling with the idea that Smallwood hasn't been anything but excellent for the vast majority of the season. I agree his last few games he hasn't been above average but he has still been one of the stand out players of the season and any criticism of him is extremely harsh imo

[bazza]

Back to the referee. Geoff Eltringham. I thought he had a poor game and seemed at times to be losing control.Yet he refereed our home game v Charlton Athletic and I had him down as a good ref for that game.

For our second goal, Dack had beaten their man, pushed the ball past him, but was then obstructed so he heaved the obstructor out of the way. Refs don't seem to give indirect free kicks for obstruction any more. have the laws changed?

[roversfan99]

I really dont understand the clamour to move Mulgrew and Lenihan into midfield.

When Mulgrew signed I remember reading Celtic fans say hes a good signing but only if hes played in central defence, and that his lack of mobility was always shown up when played elsewhere. (midfield and left back) I think peoples natural ideology of a centre back is 6ft 5, hard as nails, heads everything away but that doesnt have to be true. Mulgrew can head crosses away but he is also intelligent, a good leader and obviously gives you composure on the ball that most defenders dont have. His consistency amidst some eccentricities around him (Raya and Nyambe at times) prove that.

Lenihan looked no better than the other poor central midfielders we had when he broke into the team, hes not the best technically in terms of his passing, he didnt stamp his authority on games in midfield and I felt like he was lucky to maintain his place. Now hes played further back, his bravery, tenacity and physicality are tested more, which are his strengths, and theres less pressure on him to have a picture of where to pass it to with all of the play in front of him.

They also compliment each other really well, and everyone who has tried filling in during the last 2 years (Greer, Ward, Downing, Hoban) have all led to a significant dip in quality.

[blueboy3333]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Lenihan looked no better than the other poor central midfielders we had when he broke into the team, hes not the best technically in terms of his passing, he didnt stamp his authority on games in midfield and I felt like he was lucky to maintain his place.

Not this nonsense again.

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Not this nonsense again.

Hows it nonsense? Did you think Lenihan was a revelation in midfield? He was very average. At centre back hes very good.

[arbitro]

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Hows it nonsense? Did you think Lenihan was a revelation in midfield? He was very average. At centre back hes very good.

It really depends on what role you asked him to play in midfield. He could quite easily play the Smallwood role where tackling is one of the main jobs. He is better in the air than Smallwood and more mobile. He is through, as you say a very good centre back.

[JacknOry]

25 minutes ago, arbitro said:

It really depends on what role you asked him to play in midfield. He could quite easily play the Smallwood role where tackling is one of the main jobs. He is better in the air than Smallwood and more mobile. He is through, as you say a very good centre back.

We have leaked goals for fun as it is, so I would definitely not be messing with the back four any further this season. Lenihan seems to have helped shore it up alongside Mulgrew, so for me they need to be the number one partnership for the remainder of this season at least.

I also agree that it looks like he is planning for that fabled three at the back for next season.

[blueboy3333]

7 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Hows it nonsense? Did you think Lenihan was a revelation in midfield? He was very average. At centre back hes very go

Because his passing is fine and technique is very good. You can tell by the way he strikes a ball. And as Arbitro says he is more mobile and a better header of a ball than Smallwood. And i'd be amazed if his range of passing was any worse than Smallwood's. He also grew up and came through the ranks as a midfielder. Hasselbaink raved about him at burtin as a midfielder. So did their fans. Making vague comments about his 'technique' and not stamping his authority on games doesn't really hold water. Can you name me a Rovers midfielder who does stamp his authority on games?  Whittinhgam, Evans?

[blueboy3333]

42 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

We have leaked goals for fun as it is, so I would definitely not be messing with the back four any further this season. Lenihan seems to have helped shore it up alongside Mulgrew, so for me they need to be the number one partnership for the remainder of this season at least.

I also agree that it looks like he is planning for that fabled three at the back for next season.

We conceded two very soft goals against Wigan.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

Because his passing is fine and technique is very good. You can tell by the way he strikes a ball. And as Arbitro says he is more mobile and a better header of a ball than Smallwood. And i'd be amazed if his range of passing was any worse than Smallwood's. He also grew up and came through the ranks as a midfielder. Hasselbaink raved about him at burtin as a midfielder. So did their fans. Making vague comments about his 'technique' and not stamping his authority on games doesn't really hold water. Can you name me a Rovers midfielder who does stamp his authority on games?  Whittinhgam, Evans?

Id disagree regarding Smallwood, I dont think his passing range is anything special but he can keep it simple or switch the play, Lenihan kept playing the ball out of play when we played a back 3 v Bury trying that, if you look back to when Lenihan broke through he was against the likes of Evans, Akpan and Lowe and hardly made himself the first name on the teamsheet in that position which if you had any future as a midfielder wouldnt be too hard. Last season he played in defence and in my opinion his performances moved up a notch, the only problem has been keeping both him and Mulgrew fit.

Whittinghams underwhelmed but on the ball hes a class apart to Lenihan, agreed on Evans but thats not a reason to move Lenihan, if you moved him next to Smallwood there would be a lack of composure and then Downing would have to plug the gap again that Lenihan left and his performances were really poor for the last couple of months. So either way theres a problem 

[had.e.nuff]

14 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Id disagree regarding Smallwood, I dont think his passing range is anything special but he can keep it simple or switch the play, Lenihan kept playing the ball out of play when we played a back 3 v Bury trying that, if you look back to when Lenihan broke through he was against the likes of Evans, Akpan and Lowe and hardly made himself the first name on the teamsheet in that position which if you had any future as a midfielder wouldnt be too hard. Last season he played in defence and in my opinion his performances moved up a notch, the only problem has been keeping both him and Mulgrew fit.

Whittinghams underwhelmed but on the ball hes a class apart to Lenihan, agreed on Evans but thats not a reason to move Lenihan, if you moved him next to Smallwood there would be a lack of composure and then Downing would have to plug the gap again that Lenihan left and his performances were really poor for the last couple of months. So either way theres a problem 

You obviously did not see Whittinghams performance last night hardly hit a blue shirt with a pass.

[K-Hod]

15 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

I agree with all of that and sums up how I felt the whole campaign and I suspect how alot of the people who couldn't fully back TM at the start of the season feel. However I'm really struggling with the idea that Smallwood hasn't been anything but excellent for the vast majority of the season. I agree his last few games he hasn't been above average but he has still been one of the stand out players of the season and any criticism of him is extremely harsh imo

Re Smallwood, I agree in the main, but I do think he has been poor recently. Hopefully now with the potential 2 game suspension deadline passed, he'll get back to what he does best.

[MarkBRFC]

27 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Re Smallwood, I agree in the main, but I do think he has been poor recently. Hopefully now with the potential 2 game suspension deadline passed, he'll get back to what he does best.

Has that passed now? I thought he just needs to get through this weekends game without a booking and then it had passed?

[K-Hod]

30 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

Has that passed now? I thought he just needs to get through this weekends game without a booking and then it had passed?

I thought it was gone, but I'm not completely sure tbh.

[rigger]

18 hours ago, bazza said:

Back to the referee. Geoff Eltringham. I thought he had a poor game and seemed at times to be losing control.Yet he refereed our home game v Charlton Athletic and I had him down as a good ref for that game.

For our second goal, Dack had beaten their man, pushed the ball past him, but was then obstructed so he heaved the obstructor out of the way. Refs don't seem to give indirect free kicks for obstruction any more. have the laws changed?

Yes

[bazza]

An indirect free kick is given if a player:-

"impedes the progress of an opponent when the ball is not within playing distance of either player". i.e.obstruction.

So Dack and his opponent were "in playing distance", so Dack did foul the Wigan man; it wasn't obstruction.

I should have googled it in the first place.

[Oldgregg86]

I think lenihan has to stay at centre back, certainly for the remainder of this season. I wouldn't be averse to the idea of pushing him into the midfield next season and shipping out some dross, i.e Evans, whittingham and signing a strong commanding centre back