[Archived] WBA

[Stuart]

Just now, JacknOry said:

Obviously he aint a Pep and we never had the billions that they are giving him but SA gets the best out of what he has at his disposal.

But the point is that Allardyce is only good on a budget and can do well with little expectation. For every decent home win there was a drubbing away.

He made his name from getting unfashionable clubs to punch above their weight but given the choice of any other manager and he wouldn’t make many top 20s let alone top 10s.

He reached the pinnacle of his career with England, and stuffed it up with his ego. He was the right guy to keep Rovers in the PL but that came at the cost of the enjoyment of matches (if not results). We should have been able to do better. Bloody hell, even Burnley did.

[JacknOry]

Just now, Stuart said:

But the point is that Allardyce is only good on a budget and can do well with little expectation. For every decent home win there was a drubbing away.

He made his name from getting unfashionable clubs to punch above their weight but given the choice of any other manager and he wouldn’t make many top 20s let alone top 10s.

He reached the pinnacle of his career with England, and stuffed it up with his ego. He was the right guy to keep Rovers in the PL but that came at the cost of the enjoyment of matches (if not results). We should have been able to do better. Bloody hell, even Burnley did.

Fair points.

But what expectation did we have at that point? JW (rest his soul had gone)  and it was obvious at that point that midtable/avoiding relegation was the best we could hope for. 

How do we even know he is only good on a budget? I cannot recall many jobs where he had millions to spend? 

All I know is that his sacking was the catalyst to where we are now.

[47er]

50 minutes ago, Stuart said:

And yet City went with Pep.

Go figure.

England went with Sam though?

[Vinjay]

9 hours ago, philipl said:

At the risk of upsetting various sensitive souls, jim is 100% correct in everything he was posting.

Laudrup was the serious alternative to Ince and Mancini to Allardyce. John Williams plumped for English talent in both cases but then that is not the done thing. Curbishley was nowhere near being appointed- don't think he was interviewed but stand to be corrected on that. Certainly never made a short list.

And I am not backing down one iota on what I posted about how our brilliant management team was destroyed by people who officially nowhere near managing the club...

Absolutely ludicrous decision. Guess I'm still not allowed to question anything Saint John did though despite your lies about him being incapable of relegation. Same with the trustees though I assume they were "forced" sell (your own words) by the family who never exerted any influence whatsoever? 

Not sure how Chaddy can criticise Allardyce for being dour then say he would have hired Alan "average" Curbishley. 

I know some people remain of the opinion that Allardyce being sacked was worse than Jack's death. How many times though must it be pointed out that the club wasn't even relegated that season? More than enough time to rectify the situation but they didn't. Sick of him being treated by some paragon of virtue. Yeah ok he offered a certain level of service but so do some prostitutes (not that I've hired any) and they won't stop their "customers" feeling somewhat sleazy. Is Allardyce the type of man you want visiting schools or sick children? He's arrogant and cares about nothing but himself. Its an insult to the stature of this football club to treat him as anything more than a mere footnote. He did an average job as expected then was replaced by a complete idiot. He's the one who brought Kean in as well how about pointing out that fact?

Mere footnote in regards to Rovers that is. Generally he will always be remembered as the clown who lost the highest profile (and no doubt highest compensated) job he had through his own faults.  

Same damn argument. At least some are worth fighting for. Allardyce simply isn't that significant to merit the endless debates on here and elsewhere though. 

Bilic didn't ruin WHU and as pointed out Laudrup won a trophy. Something Allardyce knows nothing about. Its insulting to call them "Carlos kickaballs" especially someone like Laudrup. Also Bilic was a Croatian defender not some "flick and trick" fairy or whatever a "Carlos kickaball" is supposed to be. Its 2018 isn't "Arsene who?" type thinking a bit passe now?

[Vinjay]

On 31/03/2018 at 22:12, Exiled in Toronto said:

Maybe so but this is a huge blot on Williams’ record. He was persisting with Souness too long till Newcastle had a brain fart, was persisting with the dreadful Ince (was his wife doing the scouting??) till the Trust actually took an interest, and persisted with Pulis too long. Souness was a great appointment, Hughes and Allardyce obvious ones, Ince and Pardew dreadful ones, so he’s not really a rainmaker when it comes to unearthing managerial gems.

Not the ‘safe pair of hands’ Baggies fans who came on here at the time were told.

While I certainly respect your opinions (one of the few who didn't worship everything the Walker family influenced trustees did) let me make a couple of adjustments...

He didn't appoint Souness. Jack authorised it and fighting cancer didn't prevent him picking up a telephone. Was also told Finn and Coar had more to do with contacting Souness than Williams.

Yes I've heard that as well about the trustees/Ince. I would say though that its more likely a certain family took an interest knowing that their chances of a sale would lower in the Championship. Even with a spiv like Anderson finding mugs like Venkys. Anyone seen Anderson up at Northchoke recently? Probably not since his buddies moved to Monaco.

 

[Vinjay]

10 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Sam Allardyce was on the verge of signing Lewadowski but was foiled by the iceland ash cloud

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2314519/Robert-Lewandowski-signed-Blackburn-Rovers-flight-hadnt-cancelled-Icelandic-ash-cloud.html

More Lancashire tripe from you, with vinegar and seasoning. 

 

 

He was foiled by the Walker family influenced trust actually. Allardyce has been quoted as saying they knocked it back but better to keep up this myth about volcanoes for sake of a headline. All that did was prevent him from visiting though since the club wouldn't pay the paltry asking price not sure why he was invited anyway.

People can talk about karma all they want as if anyone on here suggested Steve Kean as his replacement. Maybe karma should be reserved for anyone who calls Jack Walker a disgrace just because he admired a politician they didn't like. Yet criticise Saint Sam and we are living in "fantasyland" for not treating Rovers as some pissant non entity who couldn't survive for 5 seconds without Sam the managerial God.  

[Exiled in Toronto]

37 minutes ago, Vinjay17 said:

While I certainly respect your opinions (one of the few who didn't worship everything the Walker family influenced trustees did) let me make a couple of adjustments...

He didn't appoint Souness. Jack authorised it and fighting cancer didn't prevent him picking up a telephone. Was also told Finn and Coar had more to do with contacting Souness than Williams.

Yes I've heard that as well about the trustees/Ince. I would say though that its more likely a certain family took an interest knowing that their chances of a sale would lower in the Championship. Even with a spiv like Anderson finding mugs like Venkys. Anyone seen Anderson up at Northchoke recently? Probably not since his buddies moved to Monaco.

 

There are many unanswered questions on the takeover. Not least of which is who brought the plague that was Anderson into the sale process? Some fusty lawyers in distant Jersey or the man who had negotiated Kean’s contract (and presumably quite a few others over the years) with the self-same Anderson a month or two previously? 

[Vinjay]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

There are many unanswered questions on the takeover. Not least of which is who brought the plague that was Anderson into the sale process? Some fusty lawyers in distant Jersey or the man who had negotiated Kean’s contract (and presumably quite a few others over the years) with the self-same Anderson a month or two previously? 

Well Williams certainly used him as an agent for some transfers. I doubt the Walker Family influenced trust had much to do with those initial dealings but he probably slithered into a discussion with them at some point. My belief is via Howard Walker and Richard Matthewman) though Williams/Finn didn't object to Anderson's involvement. Thenodrog criticised me for not mentioning Rothschild several weeks back as they accomplished nothing. My retort was the Rothschild family were probably not on tenterhooks over the sale of Rovers. We don't know either who the "liaisons" at Rothschild were or if it was even the same ones. It might just have been whoever picked up the phone that day. Its a lot easier for someone like Anderson to spot the opportunity than some faceless liaison working for a colossal financial setup like Rothschild. I don't think they had anything to do with bringing in Anderson they were probably "passive" at worst. My gripe list is long enough already without adding the Rothschilds to the list lol.

As Philipl says the trustees were "forced" into selling. In a roundabout way this appears to be an admittance that the Walker family were involved in the process all along. To me this was obvious years ago though yourself and Revidge at least didn't praise everything the trustees did. As time went on people like Den started to turn against them as well.

 Who had most to gain from the trustees starving the club of any funding? Who had most to gain from conspiring with a spiv to sell a web of lies to the gullible Venkys? Who could threaten legal action against the trustees if they didn't do as they were told? Ross and Michaela Walker of course filed a lawsuit against them for neglect. This didn't mention Rovers but its not like they gave a toss if the club was neglected. Anderson could have approached them or vice versa. My feeling is though the entire family threatened them over Rovers on numerous occasions. Which family member however was the easiest for Anderson to contact? Matthewman. Which family member openly hates Rovers? Howard. Just because they didn't take legal action (Matthewman couldn't have anyway unless it was via his wife) it does not rule them out as the main figures conspiring with Anderson. Conspiracy theory? No more than some of the other accusations made over the past few years. 

Lets not forget Northchoke's continued status as a club partner either. Truly the attitude of a family distraught by what's happened to Rovers. 

[AllRoverAsia]

8 hours ago, Stuart said:

But the point is that Allardyce is only good on a budget and can do well with little expectation. For every decent home win there was a drubbing away.

He made his name from getting unfashionable clubs to punch above their weight but given the choice of any other manager and he wouldn’t make many top 20s let alone top 10s.

He reached the pinnacle of his career with England, and stuffed it up with his ego. He was the right guy to keep Rovers in the PL but that came at the cost of the enjoyment of matches (if not results). We should have been able to do better. Bloody hell, even Burnley did.

Bunkum. Blatantly untrue. Fake news.

Sam has managed SEVEN, that's 7, different Clubs in the PL so most certainly has been in the top list of these Clubs and consistently for about 18 years.

Oh and the Citeh interest in Sam pre-dated Taksin nevermind the big bucks of the Arabs so why Pep is mentioned is beyond comprehension.

[Stuart]

8 hours ago, 47er said:

England went with Sam though?

England’s record for picking managers isn’t much of a yardstick tbf and there is an absolutely dirth of available English managers - which seemed to be the direction the FA and public wanted to go in after Sven and Capello.

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Bunkum. Blatantly untrue. Fake news.

Sam has managed SEVEN, that's 7, different Clubs in the PL so most certainly has been in the top list of these Clubs and consistently for about 18 years.

Oh and the Citeh interest in Sam pre-dated Taksin nevermind the big bucks of the Arabs so why Pep is mentioned is beyond comprehension.

Easy tiger. The point about Pep was that clubs with the most choice, who want good football, do not phone up Sam Allardyce.

Personally, and I’ve said it consistently, for where we were at the time Sam was the right fit. With a decent budget and aspirations to do better than midtable he would not be approached.

Games were thoroughly depressing to watch, except that we had a good home results record. It actually started to make me question what was important in football at a fundamental level. He was never going to finish in the top 6 or 7 and the football was dire so why were we all watching? The best answer is that it was temporary - which is exactly why he was given 7 different PL jobs. He had one specific function that he did very well. He passed his sell-by date pretty quickly (although not usually as quickly as at Everton). A new broom with money would have thanked Sam for his efforts and brought in a much higher standard.

Where we went wrong was to listen to a real bunkum, fake news peddling agency who sold them the idea of success on the cheap. Well that and selling to such gullible buffoons in the first place.

[den]

59 minutes ago, Stuart said:

England’s record for picking managers isn’t much of a yardstick tbf and there is an absolutely dirth of available English managers - which seemed to be the direction the FA and public wanted to go in after Sven and Capello.

Easy tiger. The point about Pep was that clubs with the most choice, who want good football, do not phone up Sam Allardyce.

Personally, and I’ve said it consistently, for where we were at the time Sam was the right fit. With a decent budget and aspirations to do better than midtable he would not be approached.

Games were thoroughly depressing to watch, except that we had a good home results record. It actually started to make me question what was important in football at a fundamental level. He was never going to finish in the top 6 or 7 and the football was dire so why were we all watching? The best answer is that it was temporary - which is exactly why he was given 7 different PL jobs. He had one specific function that he did very well. He passed his sell-by date pretty quickly (although not usually as quickly as at Everton). A new broom with money would have thanked Sam for his efforts and brought in a much higher standard.

Where we went wrong was to listen to a real bunkum, fake news peddling agency who sold them the idea of success on the cheap. Well that and selling to such gullible buffoons in the first place.

On your first sentence Stuart, - it could be argued with some credibility, that the clubs that go for Allardyce are usually the clubs that have failed in trying to out- football everyone else. They all eventually come to realise that winning is far more important. Look where we are now. We are winning and the fans are all the happier for it.

[AllRoverAsia]

57 minutes ago, Stuart said:

England’s record for picking managers isn’t much of a yardstick tbf and there is an absolutely dirth of available English managers - which seemed to be the direction the FA and public wanted to go in after Sven and Capello.

Easy tiger. The point about Pep was that clubs with the most choice, who want good football, do not phone up Sam Allardyce.

Personally, and I’ve said it consistently, for where we were at the time Sam was the right fit. With a decent budget and aspirations to do better than midtable he would not be approached.

Games were thoroughly depressing to watch, except that we had a good home results record. It actually started to make me question what was important in football at a fundamental level. He was never going to finish in the top 6 or 7 and the football was dire so why were we all watching? The best answer is that it was temporary - which is exactly why he was given 7 different PL jobs. He had one specific function that he did very well. He passed his sell-by date pretty quickly (although not usually as quickly as at Everton). A new broom with money would have thanked Sam for his efforts and brought in a much higher standard.

Where we went wrong was to listen to a real bunkum, fake news peddling agency who sold them the idea of success on the cheap. Well that and selling to such gullible buffoons in the first place.

I do tend to agree with most of that, and he was the right man for Rovers at the time and binned too early, we all now know why and some had their suspicions when he was knifed in the back.

His CV shows 2 Championship promotions and he got Bolton to 6th place in the PL plus Europe at a time when the PL was, imo, more competitive than it is now.

He became a guarantee of PL security hence the latest Everton appointment who I am told initially offered him the job only until the end of this season but failed in that con. He will get binned in the Everton search for pretty tippy tappy but will walk away with another big payoff.

He has a future in the PL for as long as he wants and as long as there are Clubs that fear relegation............

The media abuse he gets is way over the top. I read that it's totally his fault that Everton lose at home to the best Club side ever in the PL, I watched that game and Everton were simply played of the park in the first half. Nobody would have lived with Citeh, Silva and Sane in that period.

Anyway I like him so I am biased 

[Stuart]

Just now, den said:

On your first sentence Stuart, - it could be argued with some credibility, that the clubs that go for Allardyce are usually the clubs that have failed in trying to out- football everyone else. They all eventually come to realise that winning is far more important. Look where we are now. We are winning and the fans are all the happier for it.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not den but I’ll assume not.

Off the pitch we need PL football - at least for a couple of season until debt is under control. Then I’d be more than happy in the Championship.

This season has been a ‘bubble season’ in that it’s not felt real (for want of a better word). 80% of the teams are a novelty (and inferior); away grounds are there to be ticked off people’s lists; and as you say we are winning matches, and that is important to fan mentality.

However, it’s only important to about half of the fans that we used to have. High-price tickets and low-grade opposition have kept things fairly static on the fanbase front. But L1 football is not sustainable in our current financial condition and if we don’t go up this season it won’t be as great next year. All the loanees vanish (Armstrong, Payne, Chapman, Antonsson). Dack and Lenihan will have to be sold. Graham will be another year older and his legs another year goner. Can’t see Mulgrew sticking around either. So on the club front, money is everything.

On the pitch, it has been great and about as much as I’ve enjoyed Rovers since Hughes was here. Yes, there has been some frustration but on the whole we have enough quality on the playing staff to beat most teams, and that frustration has been mainly caused by the manager tinkering unnecessarily and making poor tactical changes.

Bad start aside, Mowbray has been another good fit, although I’d argue his budget has been a better one. He has created a great team spirit in the camp, although Bennett and Chapman have been good for that and Dack and Mulgrew seem to have bonded well and as a result they seem to be enjoying their football. This has contributed greatly to results.

So yes, more enjoyable for those of us who have stuck around but we’ve bloody well earned it.

[Stuart]

12 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I do tend to agree with most of that, and he was the right man for Rovers at the time and binned too early, we all now know why and some had their suspicions when he was knifed in the back.

His CV shows 2 Championship promotions and he got Bolton to 6th place in the PL plus Europe at a time when the PL was, imo, more competitive than it is now.

He became a guarantee of PL security hence the latest Everton appointment who I am told initially offered him the job only until the end of this season but failed in that con. He will get binned in the Everton search for pretty tippy tappy but will walk away with another big payoff.

He has a future in the PL for as long as he wants and as long as there are Clubs that fear relegation............

The media abuse he gets is way over the top. I read that it's totally his fault that Everton lose at home to the best Club side ever in the PL, I watched that game and Everton were simply played of the park in the first half. Nobody would have lived with Citeh, Silva and Sane in that period.

Anyway I like him so I am biased 

I think we have quite overlapping opinions. I don’t dislike the guy like some do, I just think that for 95% of the time watching his teams is an exercise in tolerance. However, there is no arguing that it is effective. Just don’t see the point in completely sacrificing a tough away game for the sake of an easier home game rather than having a go (with no real pressure) - as part of a quest to achieve 40 points. Is that really what football is about?

Footnote: on Sam’s historic record (Bolton top 6), I’m minded that Coyle once got Bumley promoted...  

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, Stuart said:

I think we have quite overlapping opinions. I don’t dislike the guy like some do, I just think that for 95% of the time watching his teams is an exercise in tolerance. However, there is no arguing that it is effective. Just don’t see the point in completely sacrificing a tough away game for the sake of an easier home game rather than having a go (with no real pressure) - as part of a quest to achieve 40 points. Is that really what football is about?

Footnote: on Sam’s historic record (Bolton top 6), I’m minded that Coyle once got Bumley promoted...  

Sam's forfeiting of away games did grate, I understood the theory behind it so kind of tolerated it for the greater good.

Coyle at Dingles was an aberration that he has lived off ever since. It just proved that shite can somehow smell ok, at least once.

Actually coming from a farming background cow shite and straw is not too bad. Pig shite, as in the case of Coyle, is something else.

[philipl]

Pardew has gone.

[Norbert Rassragr]

West Brom have the makings of another Sunderland. A series of bad, short term managerial appointments, a probable financial disaster as the few half decent players are sold on cheaply, and the rest are probably on wages that put off potential buyers, no real vision or direction in the boardroom and probably another has been or never was as next manager.

On the plus side Tony is not listed on the first odds for the next manager.

[DE.]

Might as well let it run on autopilot for the rest of the season, nobody is saving WBA now. I suppose it's possible they've identified somebody they want to bring in ASAP to get to grips with the situation before the summer. Unless they want to do a Sunderland they need to jettison a significant amount of players and bring in a team who actually give a shit about the club. It's pretty obvious their current squad has a severe, Sunderland-like toxic element which is making it impossible for managers to change things. I'm no fan of Pardew but he shouldn't have done that badly.

I wonder if Mick would leave Ipswich before the season ends to take over at WBA? 

[47er]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

IFootnote: on Sam’s historic record (Bolton top 6), I’m minded that Coyle once got Bumley promoted...  

How many clubs did Sam relegate? None!

And Coyle? 

Not much of a comparison is it?

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

Pardew has gone.

Coyle in?

[Stuart]

11 minutes ago, 47er said:

How many clubs did Sam relegate? None!

And Coyle? 

Not much of a comparison is it?

The comparison was limited to their very short lived highs rather than their inequitable lows.

However, as you’ve brought it up, no, he didn’t relegate anyone. Not directly anyway. However, he had an uncanny knack of being at clubs just before they did. Like he temporarily got a tune out of struggling players, and then as soon as he was asked to build something, he failed.

Newcastle, Rovers*, West Ham, Sunderland.

It can’t be a coincidence that Palace are the latest ex-Allardyce side threatened with relegation.

 

*In fairness, Allardyce never got a chance to spend the kind of money Venkys flushed down the Kean.

[Mattyblue]

West Brom’s local paper gives Pardew both barrels:

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2018/04/02/comment---alan-pardew-destined-to-go-down-as-one-of-west-broms-worst-ever-managers/#vPKbVkZ4QCbBYsLw.99

[Norbert Rassragr]

A fan on facebook claimed Williams single handedly destroyed Rovers. I had to correct him and mention Anderson.

[Exiled in Toronto]

43 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

West Brom’s local paper gives Pardew both barrels:

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2018/04/02/comment---alan-pardew-destined-to-go-down-as-one-of-west-broms-worst-ever-managers/#vPKbVkZ4QCbBYsLw.99

The kind of reporting we once had

[dingles staying down 4ever]

2 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

The kind of reporting we once had

It is easy to comment like this after Pardew left. It would have been more hard hitting if it had been printed in weeks previous whilst Pardew was still in charge.