Championship 2018-19

[old darwen blue]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Not sure that Arsenal have had continued success at one point they went 9 seasons without a trophy and haven't won the League in 15 years.  .

Edited February 12, 2019 by old darwen blue

[Dreams of 1995]

28 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I'd argue that Derby, Brentford and Chelsea have done quite well out of managerial instability. Not necessarily that they set out to do it, but that in doing so it hasn't prevented them progressing and developing as clubs. Brentford even now are massively overachieving for the size of their club and financial power, despite making some eyebrow-raising managerial decisions. Southampton have managed to stay in the Premier League for years despite going through more than a manager a year on average.

Huddersfield are another lot who made a bold decision to fire off Powell when they were floating towards the bottom of the Championship, brought in an unknown coach and within 18 months were in the Premier League. They didn't stick with Powell out of loyalty or stability, they had a vision and got their man to deliver on it. Wolves - could have stuck with Jackett or Lambert but wanted to go to the next level so fired them both off despite decent results to appoint Zenga (failure) and Santo (big success). Wolves could have done what Villa and Forest have which is spend obscene money and drift into mid-table but they made a positive change rather than stand still.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of hiring and firing but some clubs have structures in place to cope with it without it de-railing the club. I'm not convinced we do, as I think the manager at this club, ever since Kean rocked up, has had too much power over the operation. It's ok as long as a positive trajectory is maintained, but when things go sour then it becomes a problem as the changing of manager affects more areas here than it would at e.g. Brentford.

Just another case of two people seeing the game very differently I suppose. Brentford had 5 play off places in a decade before reaching the Championship. After that the only real change around was after Warburton - he was sporting directory when Rosler was there so it wasn't exactly a huge shift in managerial staff. I wouldn't say they are over performing and, if anything, suffered after the sacking of Warburton and suffered after Dean Smith went.

Let's not pretend like Wolves' agent links haven't helped them be where they are now. All of their players are represented by the same guy and there's not a chance Ruben Neves would have gone to the Championship otherwise! Santo is a success but booking Jorge Mendes is the bigger success. 

I don't disagree with sacking a manager by the way I just don't think it's the right thing to do if chasing success, regardless of behind-the-scenes board structure. There are definitely more cases of clubs suffering through a change than succeeding, save relegation battles - which they end up in the next season anyway.

5 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Not sure that Arsenal have had continued success at one point they went 9 seasons without a trophy and haven't won the League in 15 years.  

Then they won 3 FA Cups on the bounce. It was a difficult transition for them at the time and Arsene Wenger brought them through with lots of cash in the bank and a platform to build. If you chop + change managers in that period you'd have found you'd have invested lots of money for similar return.

[Ewood Ace]

2 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Then they won 3 FA Cups on the bounce.

Arsenal did not win 3 FA Cups on the bounce which as a Rovers fan you should know as we were the last club to do that.

3 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Two clubs have had continued success throughout my entire lifetime (26 years) and they are Man Utd and Arsenal. Both clubs had one thing in common in that they were stable in the manager department. Since the sacking of Fergie Utd haven't won a thing despite having a great board - we are yet to see whether Arsenal's fortunes benefit from a change in manager.

Why do you disregard the FA Cup, League Cup and Europa League which Man Utd have won since Ferguson left?  That's as many trophies as Wenger won in his last 13 seasons. Also Ferguson wasn't sacked he retired.

[chaddyrovers]

7 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

They do need a clearout and a rebuild but they need a competent man to do it. I am judging a manager on results, I know the squad is poor but there was no point changing from Hurst to Lambert as his results with the same set of players (plus hes been able to add 7 more) has been no better. (in fact moderately worse) Lambert has done nothing to earn that trust.

The best example is when we had Coyle, surely by your above logic we should have stayed patient and kept with Coyle rather than appoint Mowbray.  No, because Coyle hadnt earnt any trust. Mowbray then managed to get a significant IMPROVEMENT IN RESULTS WITH THE SAME PLAYERS even though the squad was crap because he is a better manager than Coyle. As a direct comparison. Lambert has not got any improvement in results with the same players. Simple as that. What the fans think, what sort of bloke he is, its irrelevant, judge a manager on results.

I think Lambert is a competent man and the right manager to do the rebuilding job there. You don't. 

Coyle/Mowbray and Hurst/Lambert situations is different IMO. Firstly we didn't have a poor squad but a very poor manager in Coyle. Secondly, Hurst behind the scenes upset the players and other staff at the club. Hurst's attitude towards the players was like he was big shot without having nothing to back it up with. Lambert can point to success in his career and earn the players respect. Hurst cant. Whilst Mowbray can point to his success in his career and the why he talk and treat the players. 

6 hours ago, JHRover said:

You CAN chop and change managers regularly if you have a structure that allows it. If you have a stable board, expertise at the club, a recruitment structure that the head coach fits into - then you can seamlessly change head coach whenever you feel like it - Watford are the experts at it but others like Chelsea and Brentford have it down to a fine art, and also Southampton, previously Swansea, probably now Wolves and Derby - high turnover in manager yet the clubs continue on a positive trajectory regardless - because they have the backroom structure to handle it regardless of which man is in the dugout on matchday.

When you are dominated by a manager who controls most aspects of the club it is lovely whilst that manager is doing well and can hold it all together - Wenger at Arsenal, Fergie at United - but when that manager moves on or has to be sacked after a poor run then you hit problems as there is more pressure on getting the replacement right - Stoke in this category - dominated by Pulis then Hughes during the good times and then when things turn sour they don't know which way to turn - hence Lambert, Rowett and Jones who can't hack it. Villa another lot in that boat.

You made very good points there. 

I would say Swansea went downhill quickly and after appointing too many managers within in a short space of time. now they appointed Potter and he doing a good job there despite having players sold above him

7 hours ago, DE. said:

The problems with Hurst went beyond just results on the pitch - I think if it was just results they may have stuck with him longer. Unfortunately for him he managed to alienate a lot of players and backroom staff as well, and that added pressure to an already delicate situation. Lambert hasn't improved Ipswich's results but he's a good politician which gets him a lot more leeway from the supporters and usually the owners as well. Hurst was very naive in that respect. 

As if things aren't bad enough for Ipswich, now Freddie Sears, their top scorer, is out for 12 months with a knee injury. 

 

exactly my point. it was never going to work with Hurst. 

Ipswich owner Marcus Evans seems more involved than Ive previous heard he is. 

 

[blueboy3333]

3 hours ago, K-Hod said:

You've got a right bee in your bonnet with Paul Lambert, haven't you? Christ!

I thought it was just because it was something else to talk to Chaddy about......

I wondered when the Lambertini-in-chief would finally crack. It took longer than I thought so fair play?

[DE.]

17 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

exactly my point. it was never going to work with Hurst. 

Ipswich owner Marcus Evans seems more involved than Ive previous heard he is. 

He recently did an interview where he said over the past year or so he's become much more hands on. Basically the club was running itself with Mick at the helm, but with him leaving and the upheaval it caused he felt he had no choice but to get involved. Obviously it hasn't worked out very well so far, but if he wants Ipswich back up at the first attempt he needs to stick with Lambert (assuming he stays) and back him with a reasonable budget. Ipswich are going to need some surgery in the summer to be competitive in L1, but it can be done. They have to hold on to their younger stars (as we did with Nyambe, Lenihan, Raya, etc) and bring in some wise old heads who know how to get the job done. That's where Lambert needs to earn his crust and use his contacts to bring in players that can do the job, as he did for us with the likes of Graham and Bennett. 

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

He recently did an interview where he said over the past year or so he's become much more hands on. Basically the club was running itself with Mick at the helm, but with him leaving and the upheaval it caused he felt he had no choice but to get involved. Obviously it hasn't worked out very well so far, but if he wants Ipswich back up at the first attempt he needs to stick with Lambert (assuming he stays) and back him with a reasonable budget. Ipswich are going to need some surgery in the summer to be competitive in L1, but it can be done. They have to hold on to their younger stars (as we did with Nyambe, Lenihan, Raya, etc) and bring in some wise old heads who know how to get the job done. That's where Lambert needs to earn his crust and use his contacts to bring in players that can do the job, as he did for us with the likes of Graham and Bennett. 

I didn't know about the interview so thanks for sharing. 

Yes Ipswich do need some surgery. I would say about 10 new signings including a complete new defence. I would be building my team around Bishop and Lankester

[DE.]

38 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I didn't know about the interview so thanks for sharing. 

Yes Ipswich do need some surgery. I would say about 10 new signings including a complete new defence. I would be building my team around Bishop and Lankester

I think it's only the second proper interview Evans has given in the last six or seven years. To be honest he comes across as a sensible and decent bloke. Ipswich are 14/15th in terms of Championship wages so it's not like they're criminally underspending. He just made a terrible, terrible mistake in appointing Paul Hurst, I'm not sure I've ever seen one manager have such a devastating affect on a team in such a short space of time- and I would even include Steve Kean in that. Hurst ripped the spine out of the team and replaced it with lower league quality. He destroyed morale both on the pitch and behind the scenes. It's really amazing how badly Hurst screwed Ipswich over. I think the majority of neutrals expected Ipswich to struggle this year, but to only have three wins by mid-February is shocking. They've totally collapsed. 

Ipswich have a lot of loan players who will leave, which should give scope to bring in a few decent players next season. Looking at the players they have on permanent deals, they have the foundation for a decent L1 team. I'd expect Bialkowski and Knudsen to go (and before anyone says anything, no, we don't want them, no better than what we already have), but there shouldn't be much more movement in terms of outgoings. Gerken should be a good enough GK for League 1, and they've got the likes of Chambers, Skuse, Nsiala, Nolan, Edwards, Harrison, Jackson, Ward, Spence, Judge and Huws who should all be competitive at that level. They'll need reinforcements across the defence and probably up front as well, but theoretically their senior pros should give them a solid base to build from assuming most of them aren't sold.

In terms of youngsters they've got Lankester, Bishop, Dozzell, Nydam and Downes who have all shown a lot of potential this season. If Ipswich keep hold of them and use next season to really blood them into the team then, again, they should have a solid base to work from. It'll be interesting to see if any of those players are poached when Ipswich take the drop. If Evans if serious about getting the club promoted at the first attempt he'll do everything he can to keep those players.

So, it's not all doom and gloom for Ipswich. There are some good players in there, but it'll all come down to how many leave the club and whether the manager - whether that be Lambert or somebody else - can erase the losing mentality they've picked up this season and mount a serious promotion push. 

[Tom]

I didn’t realise we were 8 points behind 6th having played a game more; another win for Bristol City tonight puts us 10 behind 5th place on the same games played 

[jim mk2]

Bristol City won again. They're on a fantastic run yet they looked nothing spectacular on Saturday, just well drilled and organised and solid in defence. Why can't Mowbray set up Rovers in the same way? 

[bazza]

5 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

Arsenal did not win 3 FA Cups on the bounce which as a Rovers fan you should know as we were the last club to do that.

 

Boy oh boy was I biting my fingernails during that semi-final between Arsenal and Man Utd. The only time I was right behind Utd and loving every moment of Roy Kean's aggressive play.

Can we leave the Lambert/ Ipswich thread now? I'm bored.

Great to see Bristol City win again. Rather they win promotion than Leeds, Sheff Utd, Boro or WBA.

[DE.]

An impressive win for Bolton tonight against BIG club, away from home as well. 

[Dreams of 1995]

5 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

Arsenal did not win 3 FA Cups on the bounce which as a Rovers fan you should know as we were the last club to do that.

Why do you disregard the FA Cup, League Cup and Europa League which Man Utd have won since Ferguson left?  That's as many trophies as Wenger won in his last 13 seasons. Also Ferguson wasn't sacked he retired.

Ah my bad. Two fa cups in a row.

And fuck, I didn’t mean sacked. When Fergie left then.  It’s not that I disregard them. My point was that sustained success happened with two clubs under managers with long careers; whether that success be the state of the club or trophies. United probably don’t call the years since fergie a success despite them trophies. They’ve worsened in terms of quality and have barely challenged for a league title since.

I alsodon’t believe any manager would have been successful with the level of investment arsenal got during their transition to the emirates, especially with the other clubs around them really beginning to splash the cash. 

In terms of Premier League challenges Utd haven’t mounted a serious one since they started chopping managers regularly. Although it’s true that in later years neither did Wengers Arsenal. I suppose there’s merit in the argument he should have been sacked sooner but it cannot he argued that he left the club in a far better state than when he got it, after all a lot of Arsenal’s success as a club is based around his own vision. Could you have got that with 10 different managers in that spell? 

[JHRover]

Steve Bruce wasted no time in sorting Sheffield Wednesday out. 4 clean sheets on the bounce for them having been a defensive shambles not long ago.

Another manager who understands that to get anywhere in this league you need to sort out the defence first and build from that. Criticism from those who think that constitutes negative football yet it will get them up the table whilst 'exciting' Villa ship goals galore.

[blueboy3333]

2 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Steve Bruce wasted no time in sorting Sheffield Wednesday out. 4 clean sheets on the bounce for them having been a defensive shambles not long ago.

Another manager who understands that to get anywhere in this league you need to sort out the defence first and build from that. Criticism from those who think that constitutes negative football yet it will get them up the table whilst 'exciting' Villa ship goals galore.

Every good manager knows the value of a good defence. Mowbray's comments about not being arsed about our leaky defence in that context are utterly mental...and very worrying. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by blueboy3333

[JeffRover]

30 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Every good manager knows the value of a good defence. Mowbray's comments about not being arsed about our leaky defence in that context are utterly mental...and very worrying. 

When I read his comments that you outline after Brentford I was also very worried. However, he completely countered that by 180 degrees in a recent interview with Radio Lancashire where he mentioned failing to get promoted with Armstrong, Murphy and Maddison etc at Coventry. He was talking about how poor their defence was and how it cost them promotion, implying he does know that improvements are needed for us to have any upward looking aspirations. Whether he can sort it out or not will probably determine the direction of this club for the next few years...

[Ossydave]

6 hours ago, JHRover said:

Steve Bruce wasted no time in sorting Sheffield Wednesday out. 4 clean sheets on the bounce for them having been a defensive shambles not long ago.

Another manager who understands that to get anywhere in this league you need to sort out the defence first and build from that. Criticism from those who think that constitutes negative football yet it will get them up the table whilst 'exciting' Villa ship goals galore.

On the flipside scoring one goal in 3 games against 3 of the worst teams in the championship. 

I hate to piss on your Bruce love in but we also kept a clean sheet against Ipswich and Millwall a few weeks ago whilst scoring a few more too. We may well do the same against Reading tonight.....

[JHRover]

2 hours ago, Ossydave said:

On the flipside scoring one goal in 3 games against 3 of the worst teams in the championship. 

I hate to piss on your Bruce love in but we also kept a clean sheet against Ipswich and Millwall a few weeks ago whilst scoring a few more too. We may well do the same against Reading tonight.....

Let's see how many times they concede 3,4 or 5 in a game between now and the end of the season.

[SBlue]

22 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Let's see how many times they concede 3,4 or 5 in a game between now and the end of the season.

I’ve got a bet on with a Wendy that we’ll finish above them and I’m still massively confident.

They weren’t conceding too many before Bruce came in (Jos playing a flat back 10), but they haven’t scored more than one in game since we tonked them and then they drew with Rotherham in early December. 

They are crap, they might not concede as many in a game, but we will get more points.

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, JHRover said:

Steve Bruce wasted no time in sorting Sheffield Wednesday out. 4 clean sheets on the bounce for them having been a defensive shambles not long ago.

Another manager who understands that to get anywhere in this league you need to sort out the defence first and build from that. Criticism from those who think that constitutes negative football yet it will get them up the table whilst 'exciting' Villa ship goals galore.

He wasn't in charge for the first of them.

So his record reads: 5 points from Reading, Millwall and Ipswich. If we'd have drawn 0-0 against Millwall and Reading... 

[JHRover]

29 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

He wasn't in charge for the first of them.

So his record reads: 5 points from Reading, Millwall and Ipswich. If we'd have drawn 0-0 against Millwall and Reading... 

We drew 2-2 with Reading and 0-0 with Millwall at home, we play Reading tonight and Millwall away was one of the worst games of football ever seen, though granted we got a very good win there.

He'll make them very difficult to beat and I'd expect them to be up there  next season.

[JHRover]

33 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

I’ve got a bet on with a Wendy that we’ll finish above them and I’m still massively confident.

They weren’t conceding too many before Bruce came in (Jos playing a flat back 10), but they haven’t scored more than one in game since we tonked them and then they drew with Rotherham in early December. 

They are crap, they might not concede as many in a game, but we will get more points.

 

We should finish above them. We were miles ahead at the end of January and they've had a month without a manager and been under Ffp sanctions all season.

[DE.]

36 minutes ago, JHRover said:

We drew 2-2 with Reading and 0-0 with Millwall at home, we play Reading tonight and Millwall away was one of the worst games of football ever seen, though granted we got a very good win there.

He'll make them very difficult to beat and I'd expect them to be up there  next season.

We would have lost to Reading if not for the generosity of Paul McShane. We were absolutely appalling in that match, two down after 25 minutes and defensively all over the place. Clawed back a point with two penalties, didn't look like we'd score from open play in a million years. We've improved since then but anybody thinking tonight will be an easy three points has already forgotten how poor we are and have been the entire season defensively. Only Ipswich, Rotherham and Villa have conceded more than us. Reading have actually conceded 44 compared to our 47, but they've score 10 less goals than us which puts them in the position they're in. 

[bluebruce]

6 hours ago, DE. said:

We would have lost to Reading if not for the generosity of Paul McShane. We were absolutely appalling in that match, two down after 25 minutes and defensively all over the place. Clawed back a point with two penalties, didn't look like we'd score from open play in a million years. We've improved since then but anybody thinking tonight will be an easy three points has already forgotten how poor we are and have been the entire season defensively. Only Ipswich, Rotherham and Villa have conceded more than us. Reading have actually conceded 44 compared to our 47, but they've score 10 less goals than us which puts them in the position they're in. 

Not how I felt about that game. I absolutely couldn't believe Reading went 2 up. Entirely against the run of play and undeserved in the extreme. We did falter a bit after that but we still should have won. One of our most confusing results for me. Sometimes it's not your day in terms of the rub. At least one of the goals we conceded was horrendous defensively though I agree.

[DE.]

17 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Not how I felt about that game. I absolutely couldn't believe Reading went 2 up. Entirely against the run of play and undeserved in the extreme. We did falter a bit after that but we still should have won. One of our most confusing results for me. Sometimes it's not your day in terms of the rub. At least one of the goals we conceded was horrendous defensively though I agree.

In fairness it was the first half where we were abysmal, we did improve in the second half but still looked useless going forward. Dack wasn't playing though which largely explains that. I don't think we can call ourselves unlucky in that match considering we got two penalties! We let in two very poor goals and if you can't keep it tight at the back you'll never get anywhere, as history has proven time and time again. It's an area Mowbray doesn't seem to consider important which is a big concern.