Thursday deadline.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Wilshire is just a poor man's Dack 

[Tormund]

Don’t be so negative. We are Blackburn Rovers. 

[JHRover]

14 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

Villa's potentially making some pretty drastic cuts this year... yes, something to keep an eye on... But they appear to be a case of gambling for a couple years with parachute payments and losing. I'm not sure why you're so confidant they won't be making such cuts.

 

I expect Villa will make some cuts and probably a sale or two. I'm doubtful they'll be given a FFP punishment, doubt they'll go into administration and doubt they'll end up doing a Sunderland.

If they have gambled on promotion and failed yet the worst they get is losing a couple of decent players and reducing the wage bill then that's not bad given the amounts they've spent. With Bruce as manager and even half of their current squad they'll probably be in play-off contention again next season.

Of course I might be wrong and their world might come crashing down around their ears. Lets wait and see. Only today Alan Hutton has signed a new deal having been linked with various other clubs.

Derby and Sheffield Wednesday are similar. The summer started with rumours of problems at Derby after another missed promotion - supposed FFP trouble and having to make cutbacks - Rowett moving to Stoke appeared to be the start - yet they've appointed Lampard who won't be cheap, are now favourites to sign Jack Marriott from Peterborough who won't be cheap so I see no sign of imminent difficulties there. Sheffield Wednesday spent massive amounts to the extent that they had £10 million Rhodes making up the numbers on their bench last season, failed to go up again after 3 seasons of heavy spending yet no unfolding disaster there yet either.

The impression I'm getting is either these FFP rules are very easy to work around, and all these big spending clubs are getting away with it, or that they aren't being enforced properly.

Either way nobody has been sanctioned in recent seasons and in the 'EFL' I see a weak organisation unable or unwilling to enforce its own rules.

Edited June 14, 2018 by JHRover

[roversfan99]

43 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Graham Burke? didn't cut it at Villa. 

the other 2 signings aren't great and shows the PNE policy. 

don't see them improving the PNE 1st 11 but squad players next season for them

fair enough. expect him to join Rotherham 

both should be given 4 years contract

what disagreement? I used Mowbray previous comments about the age bracket he was looking at. That's what I used to suggestion some possible signings. 

I amazed that you are really disappointed Conway got a new deal. 

Here is Mowbray's reasons for keeping him and his role for next season(similar to my opinion of his role). http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/16290061.Tony_Mowbray_on_why_Craig_Conway_was_offered_new_Rovers_deal/?ref=mac

You 3 reasons are laughable as I've seen Conway played lots last season, the other 2 reasons are just bizarre. 

Yes I did watch that TV show. it is very bonkers and so much going on. 

I don't see Forest challenging for top 6 this season anyway. 

Firstly I was pointing out in jest that you ridiculed someone suggesting a 29 year old, based on the thought that Mowbray wouldnt be signing someone of that age, now hes come out and inferred he would consider someone of that age it goes against this.

The only reasons are his work rate, character, personality, professionalism etc. These are not enough without offering something in terms of actually on the pitch. If they were, wed sign him up for 15 years more. And last season, sadly, he didnt offer that. A winger needs to offer at least some attacking threat, and he doesnt. His legs have gone. And for all the spiel about defensive wingers, if say we are away at Stoke or Swansea on the opening day, and we want one of our wingers to be more defensive, we already have Bennett.

I dont want it in Mowbrays words, think for yourself, please outline the reasons why you are happy he has stayed, without using the words character, experience, professionalism etc.

Out of the 3 reasons that I gave, you probably come under the category of being unwilling to question any of Mowbrays decisions.

[chaddyrovers]

43 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

If Conway is a regular starter next season I'll eat my hat.

So negative. 

Conway is a squad player. He will start some games. 

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

49 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

A few accounts on twitter saying we are trying hard for Jack Wilshire. 

Welcome to the silly season of the internet age 

What kind of saddo runs these accounts and what do they gain from doing so? 

Because people bite on their titbits like you have. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

Because people bite on their titbits like you have. 

My post was pointing out how stupid the link is. 

Keep up. That cucumber has you distracted 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

I'm advocating that we stop incessantly banging on about FFP rules as a club when another club (not in receipt of parachute money) is on the verge of spending £13 million on one player.

'If we get promoted it doesn't matter' is another myth - there's no evidence of any club being sanctioned even if they miss out - Villa are rumoured to be in trouble but lets see if anything actually happens.

Bolton were sanctioned because they failed to produce their accounts because they were going bust - not because they overspent or were found guilty of overspending

Cardiff and Fulham had embargoes that lasted a matter of weeks/only impacted on one transfer window and both have since won promotion so it clearly didn't do them much harm.

The only others were ourselves, Leeds and Forest, one of which is spending 8 figure sums on players so they clearly haven't learnt much of a lesson from it.

The extra revenue that the likes of Forest may have over us does not account for them spending £13 million on one player whilst we deal in loans and frees. Chuck in their January business and other signings this summer and I reckon they'll be pushing £20 million before wages are factored in.

 

Nobody is banging on about it incessantly, bar you JHR.

There’s plenty of evidence of sanctions if you’re willing to actually accept them, whether you think they make a difference or not. Transfer embargo’s, fines and future legal battles. 

You speak as if this is clear cut - I honestly don’t know if QPR et al will eventually be fined, but I do know they must’ve racked up a fair few million already in legal costs. If QPR lose their appeal, the precedent is set. 

Also, why do you want Venkys to invest more anyway? Seriously? I’d rather the club washed its own face, ran itself, without the need for long term funding. That’s the only way out for these owners imo, they’ve lost enough already.

There is nothing positive or ambitious about putting our entire turnover into one transfer fee and bring back murphy and best “esque” wages. If it goes wrong again, do I think the current custodians would accept another 100m of debt? I personally feel lucky that they haven’t carved up the physical assets already, throwing more money down that well would surely cause chaos if it’s unsuccessful.

We aren’t comparable to Big city clubs like Nottingham, Leeds, Cardiff either - the difference in basic turnover needs to be pointed out. That’s not about FFP, it’s just absolute fact- leeds average 30k + fans - can’t you see why that might make a difference the wages we can pay? 

 

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

My post was pointing out how stupid the link is. 

Keep up. That cucumber has you distracted 

You also asked 'What kind of saddo runs these accounts and what do they gain from doing so?' which I answered. 

[JBiz]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Firstly I was pointing out in jest that you ridiculed someone suggesting a 29 year old, based on the thought that Mowbray wouldnt be signing someone of that age, now hes come out and inferred he would consider someone of that age it goes against this.

The only reasons are his work rate, character, personality, professionalism etc. These are not enough without offering something in terms of actually on the pitch. If they were, wed sign him up for 15 years more. And last season, sadly, he didnt offer that. A winger needs to offer at least some attacking threat, and he doesnt. His legs have gone. And for all the spiel about defensive wingers, if say we are away at Stoke or Swansea on the opening day, and we want one of our wingers to be more defensive, we already have Bennett.

I dont want it in Mowbrays words, think for yourself, please outline the reasons why you are happy he has stayed, without using the words character, experience, professionalism etc.

Out of the 3 reasons that I gave, you probably come under the category of being unwilling to question any of Mowbrays decisions.

Character, experience and professionalism are three of the characteristics we’ve especially lacked since we watched Emerton, Nelsen, Salgado, Ooojer, et al walk away without ceremony - to be so disappointed in keeping an aging but obvious good influence...

Questionsble. Or maybe it’s more along the lines of you’ve no real grasp of what it takes to have a successful squad! 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Ladyboys of Bank Top said:

Apparently.

Do you have a defined role? I can't make one out rather than mild irritant? 

Namer and shamer of morons. 

 

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Namer and shamer of morons. 

 

And occasional asker of stupid questions. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

And occasional asker of stupid questions. 

 

Just now, Ladyboys of Bank Top said:

You seem to be failing at that too. 

It's an easy job. The morons typically out themselves for all to see.

Are you 2 the new tag team of BRFCs?  Ladyboys hidden cucumber. Who is Earthquake and who is Typhoon? 

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

It's an easy job. The morons typically out themselves for all to see.

Are you 2 the new tag team of BRFCs? Who is Earthquake and who is Typhoon? 

 

Is that a wrestling reference? I'd be the mysterious, good looking one. 

[JHRover]

Just now, Biz said:

 

Nobody is banging on about it incessantly, bar you JHR.

There’s plenty of evidence of sanctions if you’re willing to actually accept them, whether you think they make a difference or not. Transfer embargo’s, fines and future legal battles. 

You speak as if this is clear cut - I honestly don’t know if QPR et al will eventually be fined, but I do know they must’ve racked up a fair few million already in legal costs. If QPR lose their appeal, the precedent is set. 

Also, why do you want Venkys to invest more anyway? Seriously? I’d rather the club washed its own face, ran itself, without the need for long term funding. That’s the only way out for these owners imo, they’ve lost enough already.

There is nothing positive or ambitious about putting our entire turnover into one transfer fee and bring back murphy and best “esque” wages. If it goes wrong again, do I think the current custodians would accept another 100m of debt? I personally feel lucky that they haven’t carved up the physical assets already, throwing more money down that well would surely cause chaos if it’s unsuccessful.

We aren’t comparable to Big city clubs like Nottingham, Leeds, Cardiff either - the difference in basic turnover needs to be pointed out. That’s not about FFP, it’s just absolute fact- leeds average 30k + fans - can’t you see why that might make a difference the wages we can pay? 

 

Pretty much every interview I've seen from Mike Cheston and Steve Waggott refers to FFP constraints.

A lot of people on this forum frequently refer to them as a reason why we cannot spend money on new players.

I'm not the only person going on about it.

Which clubs have been sanctioned in the last 3 years for breaching the rules?

Aston Villa rumoured to be in trouble, QPR fined but haven't paid a penny.

Why do I want Venkys to invest? Because realistically that is the best chance we have of getting promoted. I can't believe anyone is comfortable with the idea of a future where we spend nothing and our rivals spend millions.

This talk about the club washing its own face and not needing long term funding is all nice and romantic but realistically isn't going to happen unless we get to the Premier League and access the cash there. Even if we spend nothing on new players we will still make a loss in the Championship, as every club does.

We aren't comparable to Cardiff? Seriously?

I think I've already accepted that Leeds, Derby and Forest etc. get bigger crowds than us and that obviously increases their revenues in comparison, and yes that means they can pay more wages if running on their own steam and not owners, my point was that no number of additional fans turning up will account for a potential £15-20 million difference in transfer fees paid by them compared to us. How much do you think their fans are paying for tickets if it enables them to spend £20 million on new players?

[Joar]

Just now, Biz said:

Character, experience and professionalism are three of the characteristics we’ve especially lacked since we watched Emerton, Nelsen, Salgado, Ooojer, et al walk away without ceremony - to be so disappointed in keeping an aging but obvious good influence...

Questionsble. Or maybe it’s more along the lines of you’ve no real grasp of what it takes to have a successful squad! 

To think Emerton & Ooijer cost around £2 mill each and Nelsen & Salgado were free, makes me think the football world has gone completely topsy turvy these days

[Igloo5090]

when's the first signing actually gonna be?

[K-Hod]

Lads- can we stop deliberately winding each other up please? Do it via PM to your heart's content, just not in the threads.

Thanks in advance.

[JBiz]

Just now, JHRover said:

Pretty much every interview I've seen from Mike Cheston and Steve Waggott refers to FFP constraints.

A lot of people on this forum frequently refer to them as a reason why we cannot spend money on new players.

I'm not the only person going on about it.

Which clubs have been sanctioned in the last 3 years for breaching the rules?

Aston Villa rumoured to be in trouble, QPR fined but haven't paid a penny.

Why do I want Venkys to invest? Because realistically that is the best chance we have of getting promoted. I can't believe anyone is comfortable with the idea of a future where we spend nothing and our rivals spend millions.

This talk about the club washing its own face and not needing long term funding is all nice and romantic but realistically isn't going to happen unless we get to the Premier League and access the cash there. Even if we spend nothing on new players we will still make a loss in the Championship, as every club does.

We aren't comparable to Cardiff? Seriously?

I think I've already accepted that Leeds, Derby and Forest etc. get bigger crowds than us and that obviously increases their revenues in comparison, and yes that means they can pay more wages if running on their own steam and not owners, my point was that no number of additional fans turning up will account for a potential £15-20 million difference in transfer fees paid by them compared to us. How much do you think their fans are paying for tickets if it enables them to spend £20 million on new players?

Cardiff employed one of the most successful league managers of the modern era to get them promoted. That required a decent backing but nothing ridiculous or expensive, easily contributed too when your a city club, which reaps the benefit of better attendances, corporate and sponsors. Yes, I agree I wish we’d gone for him and not Coyle.

Which of those clubs have spent 20m on players by the way? I know Wolves/Villa/Derby/Fulham have chucked a few quid at it, but Cardiff, forest and Leeds? I might be wrong but aren’t Villa in serious financial trouble for doing what you are advocating upon relegation and not succeeding?

I personally would prefer the owners to shut up, cover costs and eventually slink off to be replaced by someone less likely to be criminally negligent.

Id be more worried if they started interfering or throwing wedges of cash towards agents again. It’s not at all romantic to want a club that’s run properly again. As @Joar said, those great players I mentioned cost peanuts. We had a club that was run properly whilst still a sensible budget. That would be my top target.

[chaddyrovers]

35 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

The only reasons are his work rate, character, personality, professionalism etc. These are not enough without offering something in terms of actually on the pitch. If they were, wed sign him up for 15 years more. And last season, sadly, he didnt offer that. A winger needs to offer at least some attacking threat, and he doesnt. His legs have gone. And for all the spiel about defensive wingers, if say we are away at Stoke or Swansea on the opening day, and we want one of our wingers to be more defensive, we already have Bennett.

I dont want it in Mowbrays words, think for yourself, please outline the reasons why you are happy he has stayed, without using the words character, experience, professionalism etc.

Out of the 3 reasons that I gave, you probably come under the category of being unwilling to question any of Mowbrays decisions.

But roversfan99 I did tell you why I would keep Conway here a number of times but you aren't not willing to accept them. Experience and knowledge of this league and he came play a role either starting a game or coming off the bench to defend a lead for the last 20 minutes a game. 

Conway attitude, commitment, personality, professionalism is what we need in the squad and to keep players in check. Look at Bennett tweet to Dack about Conway to him. 

what happens if Bennett is out injured what then? 

I hope we do get Stoke or Swansea 1st game of the season tbh. 

Conway didn't offer any attacking threat. played in 24 games, scoring 2 goals and 3 assist. compare that to Bennett who played in 41 games, scoring 2 goals and 5 assists. So Conway did offer some attacking threat at least? 

I gave my opinion on giving Conway a new contract weeks before Mowbray even commented on the situation and what I would do, so why keep coming out with the same old tripe which you know isn't true. for some unknown reason you are unwilling to accept my opinion cos you either don't like it or don't agree with it

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

1 minute ago, K-Hod said:

Lads- can we stop deliberately winding each other up please? Do it via PM to your heart's content, just not in the threads.

Thanks in advance.

Do you not enjoy a bit of bickering whilst we wait for the first signing?

[chaddyrovers]

6 minutes ago, Igloo5090 said:

when's the first signing actually gonna be?

hopefully very soon so we can focus on signings and not FFP or whether certain clubs will be fined or embargo. its boring reading about it. just go around in circles after cirlcles

[K-Hod]

Just now, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

Do you not enjoy a bit of bickering whilst we wait for the first signing?

Although it is silly season, I can only suggest more productive uses of time than arguing with strangers on the internet....

[JHRover]

Just now, Biz said:

Cardiff employed one of the most successful league managers of the modern era to get them promoted. That required a decent backing but nothing ridiculous or expensive, easily contributed too when your a city club, which reaps the benefit of better attendances, corporate and sponsors. Yes, I agree I wish we’d gone for him and not Coyle.

Which of those clubs have spent 20m on players by the way? I know Wolves/Villa/Derby/Fulham have chucked a few quid at it, but Cardiff, forest and Leeds? I might be wrong but aren’t Villa in serious financial trouble for doing what you are advocating upon relegation and not succeeding?

I personally would prefer the owners to shut up, cover costs and eventually slink off to be replaced by someone less likely to be criminally negligent.

Id be more worried if they started interfering or throwing wedges of cash towards agents again. It’s not at all romantic to want a club that’s run properly again. As @Joar said, those great players I mentioned cost peanuts. We had a club that was run properly whilst still a sensible budget. That would be my top target.

Cardiff employed a manager we messed about and turned down. Their ability to appoint him or his ability in getting them promoted last season was nothing to do with them being based in a big city. Their attendances even last season were rarely any bigger than ours were when Bowyer was manager, and with the exception of the Madine signing in January they didn't spend much, so I'm not sure why we can't compete with them. Cardiff might be a big city, so is London, that doesn't make Brentford and Barnet bigger than us.

I'd hazard a guess that Villa, Derby, Wolves, Wednesday, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, probably Brighton, have all spent upwards of £20 million on new players over a 2-4 year period. Some were successful, some had parachute money, but not all.

Are Villa in serious financial trouble? Lets wait and see. I've read plenty of rumours and horror stories in the papers but last time I checked they still had a very good squad and manager and weren't under any sanctions.

I'm not sure why spending a few bob on new players suddenly means that the club is being badly run or is going to end up in a mess or revert back to the agency days. We keep hearing about Mowbray's new recruitment department and his honesty and sense in what he does so why would spending a few million change that? Lots of clubs are 'run properly' but spend considerable amounts on improving themselves or trying to.

I just think that there's a degree of Rovers hiding behind FFP rules here as an excuse to not invest more money. I'm not advocating being silly like Forest but sensible investment in line with other clubs. What those big spenders demonstrate though is it can be done without suffering sanctions.

[RoverCanada]

41 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Pretty much every interview I've seen from Mike Cheston and Steve Waggott refers to FFP constraints.

A lot of people on this forum frequently refer to them as a reason why we cannot spend money on new players.

I'm not the only person going on about it.

Which clubs have been sanctioned in the last 3 years for breaching the rules?

Aston Villa rumoured to be in trouble, QPR fined but haven't paid a penny.

Why do I want Venkys to invest? Because realistically that is the best chance we have of getting promoted. I can't believe anyone is comfortable with the idea of a future where we spend nothing and our rivals spend millions.

This talk about the club washing its own face and not needing long term funding is all nice and romantic but realistically isn't going to happen unless we get to the Premier League and access the cash there. Even if we spend nothing on new players we will still make a loss in the Championship, as every club does.

We aren't comparable to Cardiff? Seriously?

I think I've already accepted that Leeds, Derby and Forest etc. get bigger crowds than us and that obviously increases their revenues in comparison, and yes that means they can pay more wages if running on their own steam and not owners, my point was that no number of additional fans turning up will account for a potential £15-20 million difference in transfer fees paid by them compared to us. How much do you think their fans are paying for tickets if it enables them to spend £20 million on new players?

I think you need to take a closer look at those clubs' accounts. Sheffield Wednesday and Wolves are certainly the current cases of teams that may be at the threshold of FFP sanctions and ones to keep an eye on, with Villa perhaps trailing after them. Forest, Leeds, and Derby, not so much.

As I already pointed out, a few years of significant net sales by Forest have enabled them to just escape FFP sanctions last year and have given them significant headroom going forward. Also, as I said before, FFP is concerned about accounting losses, not cash losses. Hence, while Forest is set to spend £13m on Carvalho, supposehe signs a 4-year contract, that £13m is amortised so that it's a £3.25m expense this year and for the next three years. That appears to be part of how clubs gamble for promotion: spend a lot in 1-2 years and then amortise the costs over multiple years.

That's part of why Sheffield Wednesday is getting close to FFP trouble now as they had £6m in amortisation expenses last year. as their years of net expenditure is now catching up to them. It's also an issue for Aston Villa, who had £24m in amortisation costs last year.

The different treatment of sales and purchases is also what helps enable clubs to fairly quickly get out of FFP sanctions, as sales are booked in total when they occur. I assume that's part of how we got out of FFP sanctions fairly quickly despite losses of almost £80m over 13-15...

You also brought up administration before, which is not what FFP is really about (at least sanctions-wise)... Administration is a potential result of significant, FFP-flouting losses over time, but FFP-sanctions don't mean administration (if anything, they may save a team from itself in avoiding administration!) Transfer embargoes are the main threat, and I don't think that should be dismissed so lightly (remember our transfer embargo window...?)

Hence why I've repeatedly asked you to propose what amount of investment (and thus losses) do you want Venky's to incur now? Do you think they should look to lose £13m/year? Or even more so, and risk FFP sanctions?

I think it's an entirely reasonable argument to propose we spend a lot now that our losses in the past few years have been fairly low, giving us a fair amount of headroom under the £39m max losses over 3 years threshold for a couple years. However, if that's the case, I'm also curious whether you're also comfortable with our debts to Venky's climbing ever further (perhaps a more relevant question is whether Venky's is comfortable with that!). It's a bit of a Catch 22...

(This would be a rare case of a fan complaining that teams in the Championship aren't spending enough money!)

Edited June 14, 2018 by RoverCanada