Loan Window

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, 47er said:

But you wouldn't be cautious about spending 8M+ on a 19 year old who doesn't feature in Forest's first team, whom they want to get rid of and who nobody else seems interested in?

Didn't he turn us down when we made the first offer as well?

The only thing that gives me any belief in this deal having a good outcome is Dack. Can't believe we got him for so little. So hats off to TM, may be he'll pull another master stroke.

But not to have doubts about this deal? NO---can't manage that!

My reservations around signing Chapman are based on his injury record in the last 12 months. I think its a fair enough view point 

I said I am cautious about us spending £8 million on Brearton , but that what I have seen and read about him is positive and realistically with the money being spent on players, we need to join the party somewhere. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

Just now, 47er said:

The doubting or the peeping?!!

Haha.

Well,  I guess Mowbray and Waggott do have a Coventry connection

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It was reported United and Liverpool were interested, but when those links were mentioned the response from some was "take that with a pinch of salt", "if they wanted him they would have signed him", "Top 6 clubs are linked with all good youngsters who come on the scene".. I bet if Wigan were about to sign him, the discussion would be how he is an amazing player, Liverpool and United wanted him, why can't we compete, etc etc

Anyways, at least nobody has been on asking who his agent is...yet 

 

Amazing players do amazing things. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Reading around it seems the sell on clause is whats holding this deal up. I would imagine Forest are looking for 25-30% arguing that we are paying 8 million ,whereas he is worth 12 million. If we spend 8 million we should tell them to do one and be happy with 5-10%. We will probably end up at around 15-20% though. This better not rattle on now up to the next deadline 

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

It's a shame about Chapman's injury problems as he's an exciting player. However he's had that many injuries over the past 2 years that I'd avoid him completely. Every injury leaves fresh scar tissue - this leaves him more prone to injury. You might be able to get a good season out of him soon but unfortunately I can't see the lads career being anything but blighted by recurring injuries. Players like Sturridge can attest to that.

He needs a year or so out of football. Serious physiotherapy working on strengthening the leg muscles. In this day and age though you'd probably struggle to find a club willing to give him that and pay him for it.

He's out with a shoulder injury. Nowt to do with his Hammy.

[tomphil]

Even if he and his player would be over the moon at ten grand per week they'll ask for twenty when a club is keen to prise the player away from where he is, it could also help if you don't really want to leave but need persuading.

'Show me the money' !!

[CambridgeRover]

This Brereton would be a good buy at 8 mill . Very quick and could complement our others players well. If he scores 15 plus goals this season, not only would his value be closer to 15 mil but we might not be too far away from the playoffs. 

[Mark45]

3 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Closer to the premier league pot of money 

 

3 hours ago, AAK said:

Guess would be something to do with this (http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/15289348.Venky_s_launch_Rovers_overview_by_bringing_in_accountancy_giants_KPMG_and_Deloitte/).

Deloitte come in, tell them the only way you are going to make this a profitable business and a success is by putting up a big outlay now and get back to the top flight, and within a season you'll have made all your money back and have some change. Mowbray last summer will have said, I can manage on this budget this season but next season it will need to be more and if we don't manage it we are still brining in young talent who will undoubtedly sell on for a bigger fee ala Dack, Rothwell, Davenport, Brereton, Bell and the likes of academy products Nyambe, Lenihan and Raya.

If we don't go up this season, but manage to have a relatively good season, we will have some very valuable footballers on our books;

Raya, Nyambe and Lenihan all capable of bringing a fee of £5million plus as a minimum (£15million just from the academy)

Dack - £15-20 million

Armstrong £7 million plus, if he bags a few goals (doubling his purchase price)

Rothwell and Davenport probably at the very worst a couple of million each, far more than their purchase price

and a few more who we may get a few quid for, and any more new signings.

 

2 hours ago, USABlue said:

IMHO someone has sold Venkies on the Forest lad being a sure thing triple your money sort of player.

Thank you for help to explain.

 

The theory is basis on making more money, very much a Venky project. I hope we will bringing better players in for a short time until Venky sell to highest auction bid.

[Blue blood]

personally if the deal - transfer fee and wages took into account Chapman's injury record then I think he'd be a good signing. Obviously a risk but if the finances were adjusted to account for this then I think the potential rewards given his talent, plus us needing a winger type player makes it a very attractive deal.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, Wing Wizard Windy Miller said:

He's out with a shoulder injury. Nowt to do with his Hammy.

Even so. It's well known in the physio world that injuries to one part of the body can increase potential risks to other parts of the body also. The human body naturally compensates. Sadly, a lot of injury ridden athletes begin by picking up recurring injuries in similar locations (ie: right leg, ankle through to hip) and eventually due to the natural compensation begin to pick up injuries elsewhere too.

I am in no way saying his shoulder injury is linked to that btw. Could just be a weird push or pull he's made.Just saying from a physio view Harry Chapman is an incredibly big risk. For such a young lad to have such a long list of injuries is worrying.

We are not yet at the days of sports science where we can predict where the next injury is coming from. We aren't far off but by no means developed enough to be taking risks on such players.

Finally, though, the human body does have the ability to surprise. Chapman could go the rest of his career without an injury and we may rue a missed opportunity (if we don't take the punt anyway). I wouldn't bet on that outcome though.

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, islander200 said:

I don't think Brereton or his Agent are in any position to demand large wages. 

I take yours and others points that if he comes in for the price being reported then it looks unlikely that he wouldn't be amongst our higher wages.

But in this instance the player or Brereton's Agent don't have much bargaining power. What' his alternative, stay at Forest, don't play and watch his value decrease?

He is only 19,pure speculation on my part but I can see him signing for a weekly wage of between 10-15k, heard he was on 5k a week at Forest so will double or triple his pay,possible clauses in his contract that will see his wage rise. 

Sharpe and Nixon both suggest that his wages wouldn't be earth shattering. 

Exactly What I said I would expect his wages would be. 

17 minutes ago, CambridgeRover said:

This Brereton would be a good buy at 8 mill . Very quick and could complement our others players well. If he scores 15 plus goals this season, not only would his value be closer to 15 mil but we might not be too far away from the playoffs. 

Exactly. 

2 hours ago, gumboots said:

Bds I don't know but the manager doesn't deal with finances and so on. Whilst he identifies the targets, talks to them, etc he won't actually do the deal

But when Mowbray/recruitment department is looking at new players they will find out his wages. They arent to spend time on players who wages wont fit to the struture of the wage budget. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

On the wages, he would fall within our structures alright. His agent is probably aiming for the higher echelons of those structures. I don't think he should come in as a top earner. Not good for moral. 

I would say his reasonable wages are attractive to us. If you look at someone like Lewis Grabban. OK, he cost 6 million upfront I think it was, but over the course of a 4 year contract, a deal for Grabban would cost more than a deal for Brearton 

[Lancaster Rover]

We will have known the in's and out's of what Brereton's wages are before we approached them, that's how it works.

[Oldgregg86]

Which makes it all the more baffaling why it's been dragging on for three weeks and it's still no closer

[islander200]

On twitter Sharpe spoke about that interview with Mowbray yesterday and explained that when Mowbray spoke about the EFL and the League looking into the loan to buy system he wasn't talking about this current window but future windows,they might look into it again.

Didn't read like that to me...it was written like he was talking about this current window 

[gumboots]

17 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

But when Mowbray/recruitment department is looking at new players they will find out his wages. They arent to spend time on players who wages wont fit to the struture of the wage budget. 

I never mentioned wages. I merely said that getting the contractual and financial part of the deal over the line is not the managers job. That's why we went on for so long about not having a proper structure at the club. 

[CraigF]

I’m starting to wonder if they’ll be any loan signings at all...

[Darwen Rover 007]

What's the latest with Maddison?? 

[chaddyrovers]

1 minute ago, Darwen Rover 007 said:

What's the latest with Maddison?? 

Came off the bench last night for Peterborough

[Lancaster Rover]

I have a horrible feeling we will be bringing in a couple of premier league youngsters in on loan toward the end of the window. The other 'irons in the fire' must have either melted, burnt to a crisp or the fire gone out by now. 

[RevidgeBlue]

4 hours ago, Biz said:

"only going off what he has said in relation to what has happened" - hence blurring the lines between "want" and "would like". The word "expect" was used for the new contracts at the same time as the "business done early" stuff - which to me simply points to you picking and choosing what to "expect", and which of the managers words you wish to base your expectations on - did you expect us to keep all our best players this summer and add more than 3/4 potential quality additions? I didn't expect anything past that personally, regardless of the noise from the club. As I said - Want/Would like - very different sentiments.

He said he didn't want to listen to agents or words to that effect, so how do you come to the conclusion that we will get stung if it gets any later? I thought the problem would be not bringing in the "4 or 5" you've constantly reminded us of since Armstrong signed? Not having to be desperate come August 30th... Which goalposts are we sticking to?

For example - only this morning: 'I'd also be quite alarmed if after all this summer and all the talk about budgets, new recruitment, waiting for our targets etc. that we ended up doing the Chapman one. Mowbray has suggested we're looking at a higher calibre more experienced group of people so if after all this time we bring back on loan a lad who was here last season who Mowbray didn't fancy to start back then it won't tally."

Didn't fancy? You mean utilised as part of a squad and saw potential for a long term potential target? Lad got injured twice last season, and certain players have an impact off the bench. You KNOW that but you seemingly avoid the reality that Chapman might be the best we could do for the wing when other targets are costing wages out of our reach. He also said Chapman/Armstrong could be 4th/5th target then went and signed AA a few days later - Mind games perhaps? Maybe better to try reading between the lines with some of his comments too?

As for the DOF comment, surely you don't need me to point out to you one transfer window, one specific DOF = the outcome proves they are useless? I had a car once, it broke down - all cars are pointless.

Finally - I agree they said they saved some budget, hence why we added more signings in January after Mowbrays "the well is not dry" comment last summer. When you say "tell everyone we had cash to spend but couldn't manage it" - are you suggesting this is merely a front? a cock up? a conspiracy? Thats exactly the tone that I cannot understand from you. If its me reading it wrongly, I apologise.

Why are you trying to justify your position on this by twisting JH's words round?

Bottom line is we have been promoted and the squad is barely any stronger than the one which finished last Season. In my personal view we needed 5 players in specific positions who were good enough to come straight into and improve the first team. We've got one of those  so far, Armstrong. Even in TM's own words he has spoken in terms both of bringing in up to four more players than what we have now, and bringing in Championship experience. Neither of which has happened to date. 

We've supposedly had offers in for various players all summer none of which would appear to have been accepted so if you accept that money was available all along and the strange practice of making public  large bids when it was too late to get the deals done in any event wasn't all smoke and mirrors then seemingly something has gone sadly awry with our recruitment this summer, either in terms of completely misjudging the level of the market initially or merely in terms of getting deals over the line.

Edited August 22, 2018 by RevidgeBlue

[RevidgeBlue]

21 minutes ago, Darwen Rover 007 said:

What's the latest with Maddison?? 

We were never interested in him and still aren't?

[RevidgeBlue]

5 hours ago, Neal said:

Bennett is playing attacking mid still... Would personally prefer Chapman in there and move Bennett into DM personally. Chapman is a potential match winner. Him, Dacky and Palmer behind Armstrong would frighten the life out of teams. 

Once again, couldn't agree more. Taking advantage of a cheap punt due to his injury record on a player with his exceptional talent seems an absolute no brainer to me.

Just don't think he is a TM type of player or that he particularly rates him.

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Why are you trying to justify your position on this by twisting JH's words round?

Bottom line is we have been promoted and the squad is barely any stronger than the one which finished last Season. In my personal view we needed 5 players in specific positions who were good enough to come straight into and improve the first team. We've got one of those  so far, Armstrong. Even in TM's own words he has spoken in terms both of bringing in up to four more players than what we have now, and bringing in Championship experience. Neither of which has happened to date. 

We've supposedly had offers in for various players all summer none of which would appear to have been accepted so if you accept that money was available all along and the strange practice of making public  large bids when it was too late to get the deals done in any event wasn't all smoke and mirrors then seemingly something has gone sadly awry with our recruitment this summer, either in terms of completely misjudging the level of the market initially or merely in terms of getting deals over the line.

I think we can all accept, TM included that we haven’t managed to get everyone we wanted in, but that’s a long, long way away from some of the whacky suggestions on here - If anyone’s twisting people words, it’s a few posters who seem to think answeing questions weekly in the press about what they may “like” is a cast iron guarantee, and anything less would require an inquest! 

If you’re looking for “examples”, what about the criticism of the current lot “complete misjudging the market” as if the other  72 clubs in the FL nailed it, as if it was a completely run of the mill window? What about the seemingly tenuous at best, but bewildering (to me at least) link to Cheston early today? What about the idea that “the well isn’t dry” is an elaborate Rao/Mowbray/Waggott system to encourage season ticket sales?

This and the transfer thread absolutely reeked of it all summer, to the point that “trust Tony’s decisions” it’s now probably a bannable offence!  

So I’m afraid you’ve made little dent in my opinion that a few axes are being sharpened on Thursday pressers, whilst an encouraging start in the league, encouraging signs from our earlier business, and the renewal of our best players is completely ignored.

As you can see, those are my own words explaining or justifying my argument RB. Perhaps use a few more full stops next time, so we can understand exactly what point you’re trying to make.

 

[jim mk2]

13 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Once again, couldn't agree more. Taking advantage of a cheap punt due to his injury record on a player with his exceptional talent seems an absolute no brainer to me.

Just don't think he is a TM type of player or that he particularly rates him.

 

Unless it's a on a pay-if-you-play-basis there absolutely no point because Chapman will continue to keep  breaking down.