Ben Brereton Diaz

[Bigdoggsteel]

18 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Wasn't there yesterday as working.  That ok?

Comparing to Duff!?  You just don't get it do you! 

I am not comparing him with Duff, Mbappe, Sessegnon, Alex-Arnold, Ampadu at all. 

The first point, relative to Duff and indeed any footballer with any kind of talent, is that they almost certainly show something during the course of a game, even if they are having a poor game, to suggest they have something in their locker.  When I saw Duff, and I think it was either his first or second reserve game for Rovers, he was a raw 17 year old who we had just signed from a club in Ireland for, I think, a friendly game the following season.  There was therefore no great expectation but as I posted earlier, his very first few touches were enough for me to sit up and take notice and think there just might be a real talent there.  Contrast that with Brereton who has arrived in a £7million deal to great hopes and, not unreasonably, great expectation, and I have yet to see him do anything in a Rovers' shirt to suggest he is any better than a free transfer signing!

The second point, and the reference to the 'big names' mentioned, is that it doesn't matter how young you are.  If you have talent and are good enough then you are old enough.  I am sure there are 'lesser' names throughout the FL aged 19 or under and all making an impact at first team level.  Brereton is 19 and not deemed good enough to command a first team place in Rovers' team either as a 'wide striker' or as a 'central striker'.  IMV, it is simply absurd that Mowbray has sanctioned the signing of a 19 year for a huge deal (in current circumstances) for Rovers and he doesn't deem him good enough to start.  For that scale of money, the lad should be a 'game changer' who takes our team to a different performance level.

 He is a signing for the future, which Mowbray has mentioned many, many times. Now we can debate whether the money should have been spent elsewhere all day, but I wouldn't criticise Brerton for not coming in and starting straight away. Its great that we don't have to be relying on a 19 year old signed for the future. The thing with a lot of fans these days is a complete lack of patience. 

I thought he had looked good in his last two cameos. Some nice touches and he's got a specific way of dribbling which I think will draw fouls, as happened yesterday for the penalty. 

 

[roversfan99]

25 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

 He is a signing for the future, which Mowbray has mentioned many, many times. Now we can debate whether the money should have been spent elsewhere all day, but I wouldn't criticise Brerton for not coming in and starting straight away. Its great that we don't have to be relying on a 19 year old signed for the future. The thing with a lot of fans these days is a complete lack of patience. 

I thought he had looked good in his last two cameos. Some nice touches and he's got a specific way of dribbling which I think will draw fouls, as happened yesterday for the penalty. 

 

The thing is, 19 year old prospect and 7m signing dont really go hand in hand, those defending him can point to the former and those critical can point to the latter. I dont agree with Mercers comments, especially the total disregard to age based on extreme examples such as Mbappe and Duff, but we are entitled to at least expect to see some positive signs from our expensive signing, after all he has over a season of experience under his belt already at this level as a striker, otherwise he wouldnt have this reputation and price tag to begin with. Most of the grumbles are about positioning, and most of the questions are about how differently the money could have been spent and whether we could afford such an expensive project. 

In regards to his ability to draw fouls is something that Forest fans seemed to be most critical of when reading up on Brereton, often suggesting that he goes down far too easy, with many people straightly suggested he is a "diver." I must say during his cameos already, I have noticed a strong tendency of his to throw himself to the ground often and in quite an exaggerated manner, as we saw yesterday for the penalty. If that is the case hopefully he will reign it in somewhat, that being said, drawing fouls is an important part in itself, Conway is an absolute master in winning free kicks and its all about knowing when to do it and not doing it all the time.

[47er]

8 hours ago, unsall said:

Think comparing him with Duff, is a little unfair, I do remember him small blond lad from Ireland, certainly was around then and a bit further back, To give you a clue I remember the other Irish winger, Joe Haverty, now that goes a long way back.

I know you said you go back to jolly Jack, but I go back one further Dally Duncan, so we are  both knocking on and seen probably more matches than most on here, not sure if you saw Fred Pickering play, now he stared in the youth cup final as a full back at 18, next couple of seasons moved up front, banged a load of goals in, record transfer to Everton, scored hat trick on his England debut, point being you couldn’t tell at that age what he could do, just saying give Brereton a chance before making your mind up, regardless of transfer fee.

Difference being we didn't pay a big fee for Pickering. He cost us nothing and he went for a record fee!

[Butty]

6 hours ago, unsall said:

Still wouldn’t drop Graham or Dack, if starting him he would have to start wide right, and bide his time.

Not for me, either start him up top or don’t start him. Having him wide right is like playing with 10 men, if he shows enough off the bench over the next few games to warrant a start ahead of DG then fair enough, but please god don’t put him on the wing. 

[unsall]

Just now, Butty said:

Not for me, either start him up top or don’t start him. Having him wide right is like playing with 10 men, if he shows enough off the bench over the next few games to warrant a start ahead of DG then fair enough, but please god don’t put him on the wing. 

But no one seems to mention Armstrong playing wide, sometimes it comes off like Leeds, other games like yesterday he didn’t do it.

Just because he was 6/7 mil if Graham and Dack are doing it, he will have too wait, or he’d have to change the system, Mowbray has bought him for the future, could be this season might be next, still early to make predictions but I think he will make it.

[tomphil]

Armstrong has pace and that bit of winger like style of pushing the ball past a man and going after it head down that's why he gets selected for the wing.

Samuel kept getting shunted out there god knows why but he was useless but it did mean there was a bit of extra height on the pitch in our side for set pieces I suppose. Antonsson was a natural left footer so he could at least add a bit of balance and he had that knack of getting in and pinching the odd goal otherwise he was largely ineffective. All this though in a league below so we could get away with it.

BB is just getting put wide to get mins on the pitch there is no other logical reason other than part of his learning curve but he should do his cameos up front from now on like yesterday were he does at least look like being a bit lively.

[unsall]

3 hours ago, Mercer said:

Wasn't there yesterday as working.  That ok?

Comparing to Duff!?  You just don't get it do you! 

I am not comparing him with Duff, Mbappe, Sessegnon, Alex-Arnold, Ampadu at all. 

The first point, relative to Duff and indeed any footballer with any kind of talent, is that they almost certainly show something during the course of a game, even if they are having a poor game, to suggest they have something in their locker.  When I saw Duff, and I think it was either his first or second reserve game for Rovers, he was a raw 17 year old who we had just signed from a club in Ireland for, I think, a friendly game the following season.  There was therefore no great expectation but as I posted earlier, his very first few touches were enough for me to sit up and take notice and think there just might be a real talent there.  Contrast that with Brereton who has arrived in a £7million deal to great hopes and, not unreasonably, great expectation, and I have yet to see him do anything in a Rovers' shirt to suggest he is any better than a free transfer signing!

The second point, and the reference to the 'big names' mentioned, is that it doesn't matter how young you are.  If you have talent and are good enough then you are old enough.  I am sure there are 'lesser' names throughout the FL aged 19 or under and all making an impact at first team level.  Brereton is 19 and not deemed good enough to command a first team place in Rovers' team either as a 'wide striker' or as a 'central striker'.  IMV, it is simply absurd that Mowbray has sanctioned the signing of a 19 year for a huge deal (in current circumstances) for Rovers and he doesn't deem him good enough to start.  For that scale of money, the lad should be a 'game changer' who takes our team to a different performance level.

Without everybody jumping on to me saying in Mowbray we trust,( old hat) Ive give my reasons  many times why I think it will be a decent investment, whether it’s this season or next, but just find your comments saying you find simply absurd that Mowbray has sanctioned the deal, very strange and without any foundation  I will leave you with this stat.

Mowbray at Rovers.

managed 89

won 45

drawn  28

lost 16

Think it works out at just over 50% win rate, lose 1 every 5.5 games ,that’s the best record of any Rovers manager in 143 years.

Yes I know one of those seasons has been in league 1,but we’ve been there before.

I just think he wouldn’t have sanctioned the deal, unless he thought he was getting a decent player, and you have to respect that record, and no, not saying he’s perfect in everything he does, but after the dross in managers we’ve had in recent years, I will trust him better than most, time will tell.

 

[Butty]

27 minutes ago, unsall said:

But no one seems to mention Armstrong playing wide, sometimes it comes off like Leeds, other games like yesterday he didn’t do it.

Just because he was 6/7 mil if Graham and Dack are doing it, he will have too wait, or he’d have to change the system, Mowbray has bought him for the future, could be this season might be next, still early to make predictions but I think he will make it.

For the most part Armstrong hasnt been great out wide but he at least has pace and a bit of trickery with the ball at his feet. Brereton for me should be playing up top or not at all. 

[den]

 

It might take a while to see if, or how a player can blend into a team, or if he can perform consistently, - but it doesn’t take very long at all to see what a players real qualities are. Heck, that should be apparent pretty much straight away.

So, someone tell me what real qualities you’ve seen in the lad?

[chaddyrovers]

10 hours ago, Mercer said:

Wasn't there yesterday as working.  That ok?

Comparing to Duff!?  You just don't get it do you! 

I am not comparing him with Duff, Mbappe, Sessegnon, Alex-Arnold, Ampadu at all. 

The first point, relative to Duff and indeed any footballer with any kind of talent, is that they almost certainly show something during the course of a game, even if they are having a poor game, to suggest they have something in their locker.  When I saw Duff, and I think it was either his first or second reserve game for Rovers, he was a raw 17 year old who we had just signed from a club in Ireland for, I think, a friendly game the following season.  There was therefore no great expectation but as I posted earlier, his very first few touches were enough for me to sit up and take notice and think there just might be a real talent there.  Contrast that with Brereton who has arrived in a £7million deal to great hopes and, not unreasonably, great expectation, and I have yet to see him do anything in a Rovers' shirt to suggest he is any better than a free transfer signing!

The second point, and the reference to the 'big names' mentioned, is that it doesn't matter how young you are.  If you have talent and are good enough then you are old enough.  I am sure there are 'lesser' names throughout the FL aged 19 or under and all making an impact at first team level.  Brereton is 19 and not deemed good enough to command a first team place in Rovers' team either as a 'wide striker' or as a 'central striker'.  IMV, it is simply absurd that Mowbray has sanctioned the signing of a 19 year for a huge deal (in current circumstances) for Rovers and he doesn't deem him good enough to start.  For that scale of money, the lad should be a 'game changer' who takes our team to a different performance level.

So you wasnt there. Thought so. But cant comment on his performance then. Shame really. 

Stop bring Duff into any debate. Pointless. Different players and quality. Pointless comparison. 

Did you need see his performance against Arsenal for Forest? Was part of the under 19's England squad that won their world Cup. You not seen that. 

Look at Mowbray comments post match about Brereton and the way he is learning and understanding the way Mowbray wants him to play. You will learn alot. 

 

[philipl]

Dack had men around him whenever he received the ball. Ben didn't and the penalty came from his second run at QPR with the ball.

He drew the foul for the penalty expertly. He knew exactly where to place his left foot to get it trapped under the lunging QPR defender.

[Dreams of 1995]

8 hours ago, den said:

 

It might take a while to see if, or how a player can blend into a team, or if he can perform consistently, - but it doesn’t take very long at all to see what a players real qualities are. Heck, that should be apparent pretty much straight away.

So, someone tell me what real qualities you’ve seen in the lad?

This is the question, den. Mercer is trying to put this across to chaddy but is seemingly banging his head against a brick wall.

He's not shown much in his time here and for some reason the only thing that stands out in my head is that it takes him 4 minutes to tie his shoelaces. When we had Chapman on the wing when the ball got to him I could almost feel myself rising out of my seat. Now, he is a different player to Brereton granted but the point remains that Brereton on the wing doesn't fill me with any excitement. Neither does his hold up play and the time he had a chance to knock in a header a week ago he put it straight at the keeper - not good enough. Mercer is right in saying that even if you are 19, 16, 24, 32 there will be a few moments each game where you show that little bit of quality. So far I am yet to see that in a Rovers shirt.

But look, with all that in mind, we have a young lad here that has won the world cup at youth level - 2 if you include Armstrong - and is clearly a lad with "potential". I don't agree with the posters that believe we should look at the player and fee in isolation. Ultimately, though, if we buy a player for £250k or for £25m, I still expect that same level of determination and effort. I don't think Brereton has so far done anything to make me believe he isn't putting in any effort and I do think he has the interests of himself and the club on his mind - I just don't think he's displaying the characteristics that will make him good enough to play at this level for long. Even the most ardent Rovers supporter has to agree that he simply isn't displaying any real qualities right now.

Every player hits a spell of bad form. I only hope this is his. I want a real kick on over the Christmas period to justify the £7m we will begin to pay in January. 

[47er]

4 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

So you wasnt there. Thought so. But cant comment on his performance then. Shame really. 

Stop bring Duff into any debate. Pointless. Different players and quality. Pointless comparison. 

Did you need see his performance against Arsenal for Forest? Was part of the under 19's England squad that won their world Cup. You not seen that. 

Look at Mowbray comments post match about Brereton and the way he is learning and understanding the way Mowbray wants him to play. You will learn alot. 

 

Rude and arrogant.   

[unsall]

19 minutes ago, 47er said:

Rude and arrogant.   

But true?

[Crimpshrine]

11 hours ago, unsall said:

Without everybody jumping on to me saying in Mowbray we trust,( old hat) Ive give my reasons  many times why I think it will be a decent investment, whether it’s this season or next, but just find your comments saying you find simply absurd that Mowbray has sanctioned the deal, very strange and without any foundation  I will leave you with this stat.

Mowbray at Rovers.

managed 89

won 45

drawn  28

lost 16

Think it works out at just over 50% win rate, lose 1 every 5.5 games ,that’s the best record of any Rovers manager in 143 years.

Yes I know one of those seasons has been in league 1,but we’ve been there before.

I just think he wouldn’t have sanctioned the deal, unless he thought he was getting a decent player, and you have to respect that record, and no, not saying he’s perfect in everything he does, but after the dross in managers we’ve had in recent years, I will trust him better than most, time will tell.

 

Maybe this is a Venky signing and Mowbray didn't have much say in it?

[BlackburnEnd75]

12 hours ago, tomphil said:

Armstrong has pace and that bit of winger like style of pushing the ball past a man and going after it head down that's why he gets selected for the wing.

Samuel kept getting shunted out there god knows why but he was useless but it did mean there was a bit of extra height on the pitch in our side for set pieces I suppose. Antonsson was a natural left footer so he could at least add a bit of balance and he had that knack of getting in and pinching the odd goal otherwise he was largely ineffective. All this though in a league below so we could get away with it.

BB is just getting put wide to get mins on the pitch there is no other logical reason other than part of his learning curve but he should do his cameos up front from now on like yesterday were he does at least look like being a bit lively.

Antonsson isn't left footed.

[unsall]

Just now, Crimpshrine said:

Maybe this is a Venky signing and Mowbray didn't have much say in it?

No, I’m not into that thinking, think Venkys have learnt their lesson, and I personally wouldn’t think Mowbray would go along with that, I certainly think the owners and Mowbray have agreed to buy young, with potential and all that, and think he will end up a decent signing.

I just can’t fathom out all these fans saying he is definitely a duffer, no doubt about it, it’s because it’s cost 6/7 mil, no one knew at the start off the season we would be paying out that sort of money, and fans think he has to be a world beater straight away because of the fee, but  I can’t believe they can’t trust Mowbray with the record he’s had since he’s been here, fans like Mercer when I asked him re Mowbray, he said he’s a steady eddie, but not the man to take us forward, he should have kept us up 2 seasons ago, think he got around 22/23 points from 15 games, beat Brentford last game away, went down with a points total which has nearly always keeep you safe.

After a slow start in league 1, then blitzed it, 96 points, started very well this season, it’s beyond comprehension that some fans know better than Mowbray.

[tomphil]

2 minutes ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

Antonsson isn't left footed.

He a least looked more comfortable out wide than any of the other 'strikers' who get plonked there and although mostly ineffective he seemed to add a bit more balance to it, but again that was league 1.

P.S.

5 extra points for you when chaddy likes the post ?

Edited November 5, 2018 by tomphil

[Crimpshrine]

2 hours ago, unsall said:

No, I’m not into that thinking, think Venkys have learnt their lesson, and I personally wouldn’t think Mowbray would go along with that, I certainly think the owners and Mowbray have agreed to buy young, with potential and all that, and think he will end up a decent signing.

I just can’t fathom out all these fans saying he is definitely a duffer, no doubt about it, it’s because it’s cost 6/7 mil, no one knew at the start off the season we would be paying out that sort of money, and fans think he has to be a world beater straight away because of the fee, but  I can’t believe they can’t trust Mowbray with the record he’s had since he’s been here, fans like Mercer when I asked him re Mowbray, he said he’s a steady eddie, but not the man to take us forward, he should have kept us up 2 seasons ago, think he got around 22/23 points from 15 games, beat Brentford last game away, went down with a points total which has nearly always keeep you safe.

After a slow start in league 1, then blitzed it, 96 points, started very well this season, it’s beyond comprehension that some fans know better than Mowbray.

I completely agree with you on Mowbray's record and suitability as Rovers manager - there is no question that he is the right man and doing a great job.

I also agree that nobody can judge Brereton yet as he hasn't had the chance to prove himself. This thread exists purely because he cost a vast amount of money.

I am just not sure that any manager would have chosen to spend 80% of his transfer budget on a player that is unlikely to get a starting place in the first team. That's why I think Mowbary was perhaps not the instigator of Brereton's signing.

Having said that, it is not necessarily a bad signing - it could turn out really well - who knows?

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Crimpshrine

[roversfan99]

This constant crap about trusting Mowbray in an attempt to defuse any conversation on him is really counter productive.

Ben Brereton will be judged on what Ben Brereton does or doesnt do. (Obviously factors such as playing out of position will be taken into consideration) Ben Brereton wont and shouldnt be judged based on Mowbrays record prior to this season because it has nothing to do with it. Ben Brereton wont and shouldnt be judged based on what Mowbray says in his interviews either.

Edited November 5, 2018 by roversfan99

[Dreams of 1995]

56 minutes ago, tomphil said:

He a least looked more comfortable out wide than any of the other 'strikers' who get plonked there and although mostly ineffective he seemed to add a bit more balance to it, but again that was league 1.

P.S.

5 extra points for you when chaddy likes the post ?

Come to think of it I'm struggling to see what Brereton brings us over what Antonsson did. Similar pace, although Brereton might have a defter touch, neither can hold the ball up and were more comfortable with it in front of them. So far the big - and most important - difference between the two is the goal scoring record.

Let's hope BB can bang a few in succession and put the doubts at ease like Antonson did. 

[Admiral Nelsen]

3 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Come to think of it I'm struggling to see what Brereton brings us over what Antonsson did. Similar pace, although Brereton might have a defter touch, neither can hold the ball up and were more comfortable with it in front of them. So far the big - and most important - difference between the two is the goal scoring record.

Let's hope BB can bang a few in succession and put the doubts at ease like Antonson did. 

Not really a comment on BB, but Antonsson's biggest issue for me was that he was possibly the most frail footballer I've ever seen play for Rovers. Apart from possibly Carlos Villanueva. Worked hard & had a nice finish, but I think that was probably it and he struggled to even make a yard for himself because of his lack of strength and any real pace. 

Brereton has got the physique to be a real handful, so hopefully we'll be seeing him make the most of that sooner rather than later. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Admiral Nelsen

[Mercer]

6 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

So you wasnt there. Thought so. But cant comment on his performance then. Shame really. 

Stop bring Duff into any debate. Pointless. Different players and quality. Pointless comparison. 

Did you need see his performance against Arsenal for Forest? Was part of the under 19's England squad that won their world Cup. You not seen that. 

Look at Mowbray comments post match about Brereton and the way he is learning and understanding the way Mowbray wants him to play. You will learn alot. 

 

It really is pointless trying to debate with you.

A shame you seem incapable of forming any opinions of your own.

Firstly, as I have said twice in previous posts, I was working.  Do you have difficulty in understanding?

Secondly, you just don't understand the Duff 'thing'.  Even as a raw 17 year old in either his first or second reserve game for Rovers, you could see within 10 minutes, after his first few touches, that Duff had something about him.  In a blue and white shirt, on several occasions I have seen him 'live', I have seen nothing from Brereton to suggest he is anything other than 'Joe Average'. 

I didn't see Brereton against Arsenal, however, I once did see John O'Mara net a brace for Brentford before Rovers signed him and he turned out to be, IMV, one of the biggest donkeys I've seen in a Rovers' shirt.

So Brereton was part of England U19's - how many games did he start and how many goals did he score?  Jason Lowe skippered either England U21s or U23s - enough said.

As far Mowbray's comments, what do you really expect him to say when he has committed Rovers to a £7m transfer deal plus £millions more in wages?  If Mowbray said the moon was made of green cheese I think you would be 'googling' to see if you could order some online! 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Mercer

[unsall]

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

It really is pointless trying to debate with you.

A shame you seem incapable of forming any opinions of your own.

Firstly, as I have said twice in previous posts, I was working.  Do you have difficulty in understanding?

Secondly, you just don't understand the Duff 'thing'.  Even as a raw 17 year old in either his first or second reserve game for Rovers, you could see within 10 minutes, after his first few touches, that Duff had something about him.  In a blue and white shirt, on several occasions I have seen him 'live', I have seen nothing from Brereton to suggest he is anything other than 'Joe Average'. 

I didn't see Brereton against Arsenal, however, I once did see John O'Mara net a brace for Brentford before Rovers signed him and he turned out to be, IMV, one of the biggest donkeys I've seen in a Rovers' shirt.

So Brereton was part of England U19's - how many games did he start and how many goals did he score?  Jason Lowe skippered either England U21s or U23s - enough said.

As far Mowbray's comments, what do you really expect him to say when he has committed Rovers to a £7m transfer deal plus £millions more in wages?  If Mowbray said the moon was made of green cheese I think you would be 'googling' to see if you could order some online! 

With Mowbrays record since he’s been at Rovers you don’t half come out with some rubbish, obviously you’ve made your mind up on a handful of cameo appearances, why are you saying it’s pointless to debate with Chaddy, because he’s different views from you, you do know it might be you that’s wrong, along with your gang, you’ve watched Rovers a long time you say, doesn’t mean you’re right, need to respect other people’s more positive views, thought we could all have a shout on here, just seems to me that myself,Chaddy Parsons etc if fact anyone who supports what Mowbray,Waggot are doing to turn this brilliant club round just get shouted down.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, unsall said:

With Mowbrays record since he’s been at Rovers you don’t half come out with some rubbish, obviously you’ve made your mind up on a handful of cameo appearances, why are you saying it’s pointless to debate with Chaddy, because he’s different views from you, you do know it might be you that’s wrong, along with your gang, you’ve watched Rovers a long time you say, doesn’t mean you’re right, need to respect other people’s more positive views, thought we could all have a shout on here, just seems to me that myself,Chaddy Parsons etc if fact anyone who supports what Mowbray,Waggot are doing to turn this brilliant club round just get shouted down.

Rather the contrary, unsall. Both "sides", if you will, simply have differing opinions on a player. Whenever a fan has an opinion that some may construed as negative certain posters bombard them with reasons why they should "trust Mowbray" (like they don't already..) and tell them they should listen and learn from and, ultimately, take from any interview/match/report what they believe should be taken. As an example, Chaddy is telling Mercer he should "listen to Mowbray" about how BB is learning to play the 'Rovers way' in order to "learn" - which is slang for "form the same opinion as me". Whereas Mercer has deduced, like others, that spending £7m on a player in the current climate that can't grasp the way we play after this many weeks is rather a waste of money.

Two people have seen the same games, listened to the same radio interviews and concluded differently. Such is life. There is only one side calling the other ridiculous, wrong etc etc. 

It's ridiculous that grown men can't debate without victimising themselves. There's no "shouting down" - there's disagreement. Either learn to discuss the differences and grow thicker skin or post on boards like TheRovers where every post is "In Mowbray we Trust" with little to no discussion about the club and its players. It's getting rather boring now.

Edit - as a completely different point I don't understand the obsession with yourself/Chaddy constantly listing Parsons in with this "group" that you are trying to make yourself into. I can't even remember the last time Parson made a post in this topic - or indeed any discussion outside of his well valued mini-match reports - let alone merit a mention in a discussion between positive/negative posters. It's odd ?