Ben Brereton Diaz

[47er]

On Brereton can we  agree that he's not much good in the air and that it is not likely to be a major source of goals for him or for us?

Simply adds to the mystery for me.

[jim mk2]

3 hours ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Not sure whether Nuttall is any better though!

 

I'm better than Nuttall - and I'm over 65, got 2 arthritic knees and a bad back. Unless the criterion for a professional footballer is to run to run around in circles for no particular purpose, I'll eat my flat cap if he ever makes it as a player. 

[47er]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

I'm better than Nuttall - and I'm over 65, got 2 arthritic knees and a bad back.

You're probably only worth £4M then!

[philipl]

5 hours ago, 47er said:

You're probably only worth £4M then!

jim is priceless!

I am afraid I am siding with him on Nuttall. If our ambition is Premier League, I don't see him as a PL striker. 

However, Nuttall ability to put himself about means he could be prolific in lower Leagues.

[blueboy3333]

6 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

I'm better than Nuttall - and I'm over 65, got 2 arthritic knees and a bad back. Unless the criterion for a professional footballer is to run to run around in circles for no particular purpose, I'll eat my flat cap if he ever makes it as a player. 

I think he'll have a good career in L1. I think he's a goalscorer, I just don't think he'll ever work as a lone frontman at Championship level. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by blueboy3333

[Neal]

18 hours ago, S8 & Blue said:

I'm reliably informed by other learned members in the U-23 thread that size and physicality doesn't matter anymore.

So him being taller or stronger is completely irrelevant anyway ?

People were just making the point that it's not everything. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

I think he'll have a good career in L1. I think he's a goalscorer, I just don't think he'll ever work as a lone frontman at Championship level. 

He's a limited player. When you're a limited player you need to realise you have to work twice as hard as the more talented players to have an impact. If that penny doesn't drop your career as a pro footballer is likely to be very short. At the moment he's Rochdale/ Accy Stanley standard.

[Glosrover]

On 23/04/2019 at 11:07, Bigdoggsteel said:

Not the be all and end all, plenty of players have had great careers without being brilliant at heading. 

Peter Crouch..........'great' being liberally dosed with salt

[Bigdoggsteel]

12 minutes ago, Glosrover said:

Peter Crouch..........'great' being liberally dosed with salt

I thought about him too, but googled it then and apparently he has the Premier league record for most headed goals 

I was surprised because I wouldn't have said heading was his best attribute, even though he is so tall. 

[mustard]

Find it baffling a number of people's minds are made up on the lad when he's played a few hundred minutes for us AT THE MOST with over 3/4 of his involvement coming off the bench very late on.  I thought on Saturday he looked far more robust than previous, was constantly asking for the ball (as he has been whenever he's played), lead the line well, linked up for some good play with Rothwell and Dack and bagged a good goal.  In previous cameos you could see he was feeling the pressure of his transfer fee and the lack of goals affected his confidence and thus performances.  I think Monday was the first real taste of what he has to offer and I for one am not going to get on the boy's back, badmouth him and jump on every mistake he makes to try and point-score on social media with the "told you he was s**t" bollocks.  Whatever happened to backing your team's players and wanting them to succeed?

Don't get me wrong, I'd have spent the money differently as I felt investment was needed to sort out our defensive frailties.  Alas, it wasn't, and people are free to malign Mowbray for his choices there, but all talk of the lad being useless is utter claptrap from folk who have seen him play a handful of minutes, haven't the footballing brains to say whether or not he'll make it and quite frankly don't want to own up to being wrong so will no doubt steadfastly defend their position regardless of how well he performs in the future (cognitive dissonance, anyone?).  Those at the game on Monday (or anyone who has watched the full match since), who were watching objectively and not isolating every little mistake the lad made (like we've seen the same fans do with other Rovers players over the years), could see he played well, is clearly a talent and yet still a small group who shout the loudest are saying he played rubbish and missed a few sitters.  Absolute nonsense.

It's unfortunate we have a minute subset of fans who have very much written the lad off and are looking for any excuse to dig at him, simply due to his high price tag/their dislike of the manager (who I have been very critical of this season, not so much on here).  But I'd sooner listen to Mowbray, Karanka (who didn't want him to leave) and the Forest fans who've seen him play a lot more (who also didn't want him to leave) rather than the folk who are expecting a 19 (just turned 20) year old to displace the brilliant Danny Graham and immediately adapt to mostly long-ball football which clearly wasn't suiting his style of play.  I do think he needs to bulk up and become stronger and more of a nuisance but he's raw and learning, and I feel Saturday showed he's come on a lot in that respect from mirroring DG and will only continue to improve.

Edit: typos

Edited April 24, 2019 by mustard
typos

[oldjamfan1]

Just now, mustard said:

Find it baffling a lnumber of people's minds are made up on the lad when he's played a few hundred minutes for us AT THE MOST with over 3/4 of his involvement coming off the bench very late on.  I thought on Saturday he looked far more robust than previous, was constantly asking for the ball (as he has been whenever he's played), lead the line well, linked up for some good play with Rothwell and Dack and bagged a good goal.  In previous cameos you could see he was feeling the pressure of his transfer fee and the lack of goals affected his confidence and thus performances.  I think Monday was the first real taste of what he has to offer and I for one am not going to get on the boy's back, badmouth him and jump on every mistake he makes to try and point-score on social media with the "told you he was s**t" bollocks.  Whatever happened to backing your team's players and wanting them to succeed?

Don't get me wrong, I'd have spent the money differently as I felt investment was needed to sort out our defensive frailties.  Alas, it wasn't, and people are free to malign Mowbray for his choices there, but all talk of the lad being useless is utter claptrap from folk who have seen him play a handful of minutes, haven't the footballing brains to say whether or not he'll make it and quite frankly don't want to own up to being wrong so will no doubt steadfastly defend their position regardless of how well he performs i the future (cognitive dissonance, anyone?).  Those at the game on Monday (or anyone who has watched the full match since), who were watching objectively and not isolating every little mistake the lad made (like we've seen the same fans do with other Rovers players over the years), could see he played well, is clearly a talent and yet still a small group who shout the loudest are saying he played rubbish and missed a few sitters.  Absolute nonsense.

It's unfortunate we have a minute subset of fans who have very much written the lad off and are looking for any excuse to dig at him, simply due to his high price tag/their dislike of the manager (who I have been very critical of this season, not so much on here).  But I'd sooner listen to Mowbray, Karanka (who didn't want him to leave) and the Forest fans who've seen him play a lot more (who also didn't want him to leave) rather than the folk who are expecting a 19 (just turned 20) year old to displace the brilliant Danny Graham and immediately adapt to mostly long-ball football which clearly wasn't suiting his style of play.  I do think he needs to bulk up and become stronger and more of a nuisance but he's raw and learning, but feel Saturday showed he's come on a lot in that respect from mirroring DG and will only continue to improve.

Superb post

[joey_big_nose]

35 minutes ago, mustard said:

Find it baffling a lnumber of people's minds are made up on the lad when he's played a few hundred minutes for us AT THE MOST with over 3/4 of his involvement coming off the bench very late on.  I thought on Saturday he looked far more robust than previous, was constantly asking for the ball (as he has been whenever he's played), lead the line well, linked up for some good play with Rothwell and Dack and bagged a good goal.  In previous cameos you could see he was feeling the pressure of his transfer fee and the lack of goals affected his confidence and thus performances.  I think Monday was the first real taste of what he has to offer and I for one am not going to get on the boy's back, badmouth him and jump on every mistake he makes to try and point-score on social media with the "told you he was s**t" bollocks.  Whatever happened to backing your team's players and wanting them to succeed?

Don't get me wrong, I'd have spent the money differently as I felt investment was needed to sort out our defensive frailties.  Alas, it wasn't, and people are free to malign Mowbray for his choices there, but all talk of the lad being useless is utter claptrap from folk who have seen him play a handful of minutes, haven't the footballing brains to say whether or not he'll make it and quite frankly don't want to own up to being wrong so will no doubt steadfastly defend their position regardless of how well he performs i the future (cognitive dissonance, anyone?).  Those at the game on Monday (or anyone who has watched the full match since), who were watching objectively and not isolating every little mistake the lad made (like we've seen the same fans do with other Rovers players over the years), could see he played well, is clearly a talent and yet still a small group who shout the loudest are saying he played rubbish and missed a few sitters.  Absolute nonsense.

It's unfortunate we have a minute subset of fans who have very much written the lad off and are looking for any excuse to dig at him, simply due to his high price tag/their dislike of the manager (who I have been very critical of this season, not so much on here).  But I'd sooner listen to Mowbray, Karanka (who didn't want him to leave) and the Forest fans who've seen him play a lot more (who also didn't want him to leave) rather than the folk who are expecting a 19 (just turned 20) year old to displace the brilliant Danny Graham and immediately adapt to mostly long-ball football which clearly wasn't suiting his style of play.  I do think he needs to bulk up and become stronger and more of a nuisance but he's raw and learning, but feel Saturday showed he's come on a lot in that respect from mirroring DG and will only continue to improve.

I know where you're coming from, but it's very rare that a player who looked so off what is required became top player. I suppose two who could be cited are strikers - Kalinic and King. Totally written off by most fans but went on to have superb seasons for other clubs.

We have to hope Brereton is similar.

It's just when you look at a player like  Rothwell or Travis for example you can see immediately they have the required quality. And when you compare Brereton to that it seems a very big gap he has to grow through.

[jim mk2]

47 minutes ago, mustard said:

.  I do think he needs to bulk up and become stronger and more of a nuisance but he's raw and learning, but feel Saturday showed he's come on a lot in that respect from mirroring DG and will only continue to improve.

Brereton deserves the benefit of the doubt at present but in 12 months time, and he has shown no improvement, then I think it will be fair to say the club have made a huge mistake in signing him. 

Top young strikers who are going to make the grade should have shown more than Brereton has at his age. He plays with Danny Graham in training every day yet has clearly not watched him and learnt yet how to play with his back to goal, how to use his body to shield the ball from defenders and even how to head a ball. He looks weak physically - and if he doesn't toughen up he won't get anywhere because the rest of his game isn't good enough to compensate.

I hope he makes it because he has ability. But it's not as obvious as with the likes of Kalinic and King - both of whom were raw at Rovers and needed time for the games to mature. I just don't see the same basic talent in Brereton. 

[mustard]

Just now, joey_big_nose said:

I know where you're coming from, but it's very rare that a player who looked so off what is required became top player. I suppose two who could be cited are strikers - Kalinic and King. Totally written off by most fans but went on to have superb seasons for other clubs.

We have to hope Brereton is similar.

It's just when you look at a player like  Rothwell or Travis for example you can see immediately they have the required quality. And when you compare Brereton to that it seems a very big gap he has to grow through.

Very true, both completely written off by some supporters and established themselves as top-flight players, yet both were older than Brereton when we signed them.

Oh yes, Rothwell and Travis have both been superb of late, but how old were they when they made their big break?  Travis, who has been our shining breakthrough this season, is a year and a half older than Brereton, yet only came into the fold this term.  I'm someone who hasn't watched enough of the u23s to comment much on who looks/has looked good enough, but would Travis have made the cut last season or the season before?  Or would it have come a bit soon and he have looked a touch out of his depth?

Rothwell is an ex-United player and you must remember, he's 24 now.  Four extra years of development.  I can't say what he looked like then but prior to this season, he'd played a handful of games at Champ level, even when he had the opportunity at Brereton's age, he wasn't trusted to play more than a few games for Blackpool nor the same in the following season for Barnsley in League One... yet at the age of 21-23 established himself as a quality League One player who is only now taking his chance in the Champ.  What's to say Brereton wouldn't tear League One apart when given opportunity?  Four years of development and I'm sure he'll look much more refined than he is now.

I think people have made their minds up on him a bit quickly, and I think the big fee has played a huge part in that.  If he was a youth prospect rising through our ranks, I'm sure the pressure wouldn't have been there and he may have transitioned more smoothly to the first team and we'd all be sat here lauding another future star of our youth system.

[mustard]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

Brereton deserves the benefit of the doubt at present but in 12 months time, and he has shown no improvement, then I think it will be fair to say the club have made a huge mistake in signing him. 

Top young strikers who are going to make the grade should have shown more than Brereton has at his age. He plays with Danny Graham in training every day yet has clearly not watched him and learnt yet how to play with his back to goal, how to use his body to shield the ball from defenders and even how to head a ball. He looks weak physically - and if he doesn't toughen up he won't get anywhere because the rest of his game isn't good enough to compensate.

I hope he makes it because he has ability. But it's not as obvious as with the likes of Kalinic and King - both of whom were raw at Rovers and needed time for the games to mature. I just don't see the same basic talent in Brereton. 

I agree with you on the points of what he needs to improve on, and perhaps he's been a bit of a square peg in our round hole hoofy tactics which has exacerbated the differences between him and Graham (both completely different players).  Personally, I think he's shown more than what you give him credit for, particularly on Monday where he for me looked a lot better than previous, but comparing him to the ex-PL Graham, who has been monumental of late, is a bit silly considering the difference in their style of play, physique, that DG has 13 years more experience and, despite being a hot prospect at a PL club at the time, didn't set the world alight until he moved down divisions to Carlisle.

If we compare them at Brereton's age, Graham was a hot prospect at a Prem Club, had scored two for Boro (one in PL), two for Darlington and one for Blackpool, didn't score in a loan spell at Championship Derby and was released following a good spell at L1 Carlisle, who he then signed for. 

We are no longer a Prem side, so the difference between Brereton and Kalinic at his age will be stark anyway.  One was signing for an established PL side, one for a newly-promoted Championship side.  Kalinic was given a load of stick for his supposed poor touch, poor finishing etc, and he's gone on to make a lot of our fans look stupid by becoming one of Europe's top strikers in recent years.  King, again written off by a load of fans, was the same and came good upon leaving.

Personally, I see the talent in BB and I think a lot of fans do too.  I know the majority of us want to see him come good, but like with previous talents signed for big money, a lot of folk seem to hold some sort of grudge.  This is more telling on FB groups where some seem to be willing him to fail.

[Admiral Nelsen]

17 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Brereton deserves the benefit of the doubt at present but in 12 months time, and he has shown no improvement, then I think it will be fair to say the club have made a huge mistake in signing him. 

Top young strikers who are going to make the grade should have shown more than Brereton has at his age. He plays with Danny Graham in training every day yet has clearly not watched him and learnt yet how to play with his back to goal, how to use his body to shield the ball from defenders and even how to head a ball. He looks weak physically - and if he doesn't toughen up he won't get anywhere because the rest of his game isn't good enough to compensate.

I hope he makes it because he has ability. But it's not as obvious as with the likes of Kalinic and King - both of whom were raw at Rovers and needed time for the games to mature. I just don't see the same basic talent in Brereton. 

Should they? There are plenty of top strikers who have barely had a look-in at a decent senior level at that age. 19/20 is an absolute baby as a footballer, I wouldn't have said that Harry Kane, Jamie Vardy or Callum Wilson were showing any better at that age, and that's just to name those who've recently been internationals.

He needs development, to be sure, but I think he's definitely shown that he has raw talent in there.

[jim mk2]

12 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

Should they? There are plenty of top strikers who have barely had a look-in at a decent senior level at that age. 19/20 is an absolute baby as a footballer, I wouldn't have said that Harry Kane, Jamie Vardy or Callum Wilson were showing any better at that age, and that's just to name those who've recently been internationals.

He needs development, to be sure, but I think he's definitely shown that he has raw talent in there.

 

At aged 18-20, Kane scored 16 goals on loan to various clubs. In his first full season for Spurs, aged 20, he scored 31 goals. 

Wilson's breakthrough season for Coventry was aged 20-21, when he scored 22 goals.

Vardy is something of an outlier in professional football, having come through from the amateur game.

Brereton has scored 10 goals in 134 first team appearances as a professional footballer.

A common trait to all 3 is that they all appear to have a hunger to play and fight and do well. I'm not sure I've seen that in Brereton. He needs an awful lot of "development" to get anywhere near those players. 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by jim mk2

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

 

At aged 18-20, Kane scored 16 goals on loan to various clubs. In his first full season for Spurs, aged 20, he scored 31 goals. 

Wilson's breakthrough season for Coventry was aged 20-21, when he scored 22 goals.

Vardy is something of an outlier in professional football, having come through from the amateur game.

Brereton has scored 10 goals in 134 first team appearances as a professional footballer.

A common trait to all 3 is that they all appear to have a hunger to play and fight and do well. I'm not sure I've seen that in Brereton. He needs an awful lot of "development" to get anywhere near those players. 

 

Sorry, afraid that's not right. Wilson's breakthrough Coventry season was 13/14, when he turned 22. Equivalent for BB would be in 2 seasons, and even then in the league below.

Kane was still playing championship football at Brerton's age, and had scored a comparable number of goals to Ben's total here & at Forest. Granted he absolutely took off 12 months later. 

Totally agree that he needs plenty of developing to get to those standards! I'm just using them as extreme examples to show just how young he is. He may get to the top, he may not, but I don't think that it's fair to say that he's behind what we expect of a player of his age, when most good players are just making their first forays into the senior game at his age (if they've even done that). 

As a thought experiment, if a player from the academy came in and put the performance in like he did against Bolton, we would collectively be raving about it. I know we spent a lot of money on him, so it's a high risk investment. but he needs a bit more consistent game time and room to grow before we can start saying that he's behind where he needs to be in my view. On the basis of the only 90 minutes I've seen him play, I'm cautiously quite excited about what he could turn into.

[Amo]

2 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

I suppose two who could be cited are strikers - Kalinic and King. Totally written off by most fans but went on to have superb seasons for other clubs.

Huh? Not denying they had their share of critics (every player does) but A LOT of fans could see Kalinic had something about him, he just wasn't suited to Allardyce's tactics. And there were many calls for King to be in the starting line up. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Amo

[SBlue]

13 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

On the basis of the only 90 minutes I've seen him play, I'm cautiously quite excited about what he could turn into.

It’s the only 90 minutes he has played at all!

I agree wholeheartedly about the cautious optimism - but I have looked for the positives since day dot. 

I reckon he’ll be twice the player Nuttall is (who is 2+ years his senior), if he isn’t better already.

And Harry Kane? That’s quite a high bar we are setting here... he’s perhaps the best striker in the world!

Edited April 24, 2019 by S8 & Blue

[Mattyblue]

BB is still miles off ‘a player’ and remember it was against a totally demoralised rabble on Monday.

However, I would agree that there is ‘something’ there. Nuttall, I’m afraid, will never make it at this level.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I could see what Kalinic had to offer and I was one of those who rated him.. King looked to have the makings but seemed to get a lot of  muscle type injuries . Bereton is a square peg in a round hole wherever he plays. Not robust enough, not  single minded enough in front of goal or smart enough to lead the line and not quick or clever enough to play out wide. That's just my opinion. Time will prove which of us is right.

[jim mk2]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I could see what Kalinic had to offer and I was one of those who rated him.. King looked to have the makings but seemed to get a lot of  muscle type injuries . Bereton is a square peg in a round hole wherever he plays. Not robust enough, not  single minded enough in front of goal or smart enough to lead the line and not quick or clever enough to play out wide. That's just my opinion. Time will prove which of us is right.

.... so he's not strong and tough enough to be a traditional big centre forward, he's not clever enough to lead the line as a modern mobile forward, he's not skilful enough or have enough pace to play as winger / wide man, and he is clearly not a natural goalscorer. 

So

a) what is he ?

and

b) why do people think he's going to be so good ?

[Stuart]

24 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

BB is still miles off ‘a player’ and remember it was against a totally demoralised rabble on Monday.

However, I would agree that there is ‘something’ there. Nuttall, I’m afraid, will never make it at this level.

Nuttall has got more about him than Brereton but we have certainly not seen the best of him in the first team.

To be honest, I don’t think he looks happy. First Samuel and now Brereton getting a leg up at his expense).

However, he (2 in 15 league appearances) still has more goals this season than Brezza (1 in 24 league appearances). Joe has also had almost half the minutes that Ben has.

For all the nonsense that is “Brereton haters”, there are a lot of people giving him the benefit of the doubt and, as you say, he hasn’t had any stick at games. In contrast. there are certainly a lot of people lining up to write off Nuttall.

[Mattyblue]

He’ll certainly never make it at Rovers. But I also think a place on a second tier bench will be the pinnacle for him.

League 1 or 2 and there’s a chance he can carve out a decent career - but I think he needs to go this summer for his own good as he needs to move on from development football.